[Stanlamb]

Okay, so this is going to be long-winded, no doubt.

Following on from my previous thread and all the advice given, we have decided to get rid of our aggressive Suffolk ram.

My question is, what do we replace him with?

This year, our earliest lambs, born December and January have only just hit 100kg and gone to mart.  It's a long time.  I think we have our mix wrong.  We have had problems with scour not clearing despite vaccinating but last year our lambs were slow to do also. 

Going back to the winter and spring, we had a few lamb January, a few February and the rest mid-March.  We only have 20-odd so they were too straggly and this was bad management on our part (frisky ram lambs not weaned soon enough last summer.  However, last year we were stuck feeding lambs in September for the first time ever before we could get them out the door.

We have a mixed bag of ewes - older Dorsets which are being cleared out when their time has come, half a dozen mules and half a dozen Suffolks.  I think we would like to replace the older ewes with mules - we have had ours for two lambing seasons and they have proved to be great, milky mums.

I bought the Suffolk ram having read that a mule x Suffolk would produce good lambs.  They lambs have been good but too slow.

We want to try to break even on our little smallholding but at the moment it is, perhaps unsurprisingly, costing us.  We've tried lambing later Feb/Mar) the last couple of years because we were finding that lambing in December meant that we were feeding from November to end April which was ££££.  But the downside of the later lambing is that they lambs aren't all gone by July and then it's the old story of grass, trying to cut silage and juggling fields.

Gosh, I am going on!  Anyway, my question (I am getting there, I promise!) is what will cross with the mule to give good lambs, quick to market?  My short list (in no particular order) is Texel, Charrlois, New Hampshire Down.  Or maybe we ought to change our ewes as well and put in a completely different cross?

So, can I throw this out there for opinions please?

[Azzdodd]

There is so many breeds out there I got lost in choosing I like Charolais and Suffolk so I went for a cross of the 2? Then my girls are just mules

[Sudanpan]

This year, our earliest lambs, born December and January have only just hit 100kg and gone to mart.  It's a long time. 

100kg for an 8 month old lamb?? I thought lambs were big at 45kg


Or have I just misunderstood?

[Stanlamb]

Duh!  I am such an idiot!  100lb so around 45kg.  When we weighed one of us worked in kg and the other in lb so I confused myself.  Biggest was 116lb.

[ZaktheLad]

I give my  to the Hampshire Down.  Having previously had Charollais and Texel tups I changed to a HD for the season just passed.  I have been really impressed with the lambs and would never go back to another breed now.  My ewes are Suffolk, charollais and a couple of texels.  All lambed unaided, lambs very extremely vigorous at birth and very hardy.  They are at finishing weight at 4 months on grass alone.  My ram is 20 months old and is a total gem - his temperament is superb and he will even let me trim his feet by holding his hooves like you would shoe a horse.  When I split my ram lambs off for weaning they all went in with him and he did not fight or bully any of them at all - I just think he is lovely!   His ram lambs all have the same good temperament, quiet and very easy to handle, as are all the ewes lambs.  I highly recommend the Hampshire Down as a sire - I have certainly been converted in my one season of using my tup on my small flock.

[mowhaugh]

We have had a lot of success with a Meatlinc tup - we have had our first two batches of fat lambs away around 35 - 40kg, born April/May and finished just off grass at 1000ft + above sea level.  We could never manage this before we tried the Meatlinc.  The other thing I like is the way they are marketed (for a commercial sheep) - they are priced like something you would buy in a shop, so you know before you go to look what they will cost.  The down sides are - they are a bit thin skinned, and are not at all pretty to look at, which can be a bigger downside than you might think.

I am a big fan of mules as mums, they are super sheep, I would love to have a flock of them one day.  Out of the breeds you mention, I know nothing about Charrolais or Hampshire Downs (other than thinking they look very nice), Texels would finish well but I would think you would get less lambs than you did with your Suffolk.  Although I am not personally a big Suffolk fan, I wouldn't be put off them entirely just because you had one bad one, loads of them are nice tempered.

I am pleased you sorted out the lbs/kg thing, I was beginning to wonder if my lambs were midgets!

[Stanlamb]

Zak - sounds good.  Finished on grass alone at 4 months is tremendous.  What time of the year are you lambing?  How did you do on strike rate - did you get many doubles/trebles?  One thing that makes me wary of the Texel is my (possible misconception) that he wouldn't be as good for doubles?  How do you think a Mule x Hampshire lamb would turn out? 

Mowhaugh - I'm not familiar with Meatlincs but shall certainly do some reading.  I love our mules.  They were so wild when we got them- some still are!  I was putting one out in the spring with her lambs and she came out of the shed and literally flew past me at shoulder height!  On the other hand, one was carrying triplets and was soon feeding from the bucket and being petted - she raised three superb lambs with no help. 

[ZaktheLad]

I lambed 17th March through to 8th April - here's a photo of 3 of the ram lambs I have left and these are out of the last lots born, so just over 4 months now.  All the lambs both ram and ewes had that same stocky shape. I had 19 lambs from 10 ewes with one of those being a ewe lamb (twins) and another a shearling (twins).  I had one lot of triplets (thankfully) as I would much rather twins or singles that will grow well and can go out with the ewe after a couple of days and hopefully all will be well.  I think the Mule x Hampshire Down would be a good mix - all will probably have the Hampshire Down looks with the fleece around the head/down the legs.  What really impressed me was how easy the ewes lambed, particularly as most of the lambs were very big.  I have also never seen lambs so quick up on their feet - I had a couple that virtually arrived trying to find the teat on the way out!  It was the easiest lambing I have ever had and the lambs just seemed to thrive.  The Charollais lambs I have had previously were not good in the cold/wet due to the lack of fleece but these don't seem to mind at all - the HD seems very hardy.   

Having had a Texel tup previously, I really do not rate them.  Mine was very aggressive and would run at you all the time both in the field and in the shed.   The lambs were too large both in the head and shoulder and caused lambing difficulties.  I have just sold one of my Hampshire Down x Suffolk ram lambs to a local lady who was looking for a replacement tup as she had borrowed a texel tup for her 5 ewes.  She said the lambing was horrendous with every lamb getting stuck and one even needing the vet out. 

Personally, once you have found yourself a good ram/ram lamb I would keep him for a couple of seasons (more if you are not intending to keep any ewe lambs from him).  Buying in a ram lamb and then sending off for meat is a waste of a good sire if he matches all what you want and you have been pleased with his offspring, so why get rid?  It sounds as if you have the space to keep him separate from the ewes and keep him with some whethers, so there is no issue there, and one ram does not cost a huge amount to feed/look after at the end of the day.  In the summer months mine has grass and a ram specific mineral bucket and then some hard feed a couple of weeks before going in with the ewes.  It is a lot less hassle then having to find yourself a good enough replacement each year.   Also constantly buying in every year from various producers increases the risk of disease on to your land/in to your current flock as the longer you can keep a closed flock the more resistance they will build up.   

Good luck with your search!

[SallyintNorth]

Just picking up on a couple of things.

Texels are a less prolific lamber than other breeds, yes.  But as a sire this will make no difference, the number of lambs conceived and born is down to the ewe.  So using a Texel tup will give you the same number of lambs as any other tup.  It becomes an issue if you plan to keep the ewe lambs on as breeders - but a bit of Texel to tone down the overproductivity of the mules may be no bad thing!

I do agree that the Texel is a chunkier breed and more likely to give you lambing issues than the other breeds mentioned. If your mules are Swaledale x BFL you should be okay but Blackface x BFL mules may be narrower.  We have found the Dutch Texel much better - super lambs that grow well with fabulous conformation, but smaller all round so much easier lambed.  However, Dutch Texels are less common than the regular kind and therefore may be more expensive.  We can justify that in a commercial flock but it's harder in a small flock of 20 or so ewes.

In terms of keeping a ram lamb on and using him until he would be covering his daughters - just remember that it takes six weeks to create a sperm, so start giving him concentrate at least 6 weeks before you want to use him, at a low rate initially and then increasing nearer to tupping time.

We have seen a few Hampshire Down tups appearing up here, but we haven't tried one ourselves yet.  Maybe that's our next experiment!  Anyone know what the fleece is like... 

[SallyintNorth]

Anyone know what the fleece is like... 

Answering my own question, having done some research on Ravelry...

The Hampshire Down's origins include a liberal helping of Southdown with a smattering of Wiltshire Horn and of Cotswold, as well as a bit of Berkshire Nott, the latter being a breed no longer extant and of which I know nothing.

The consensus is that the fleece is like a rather more coarse Southdown - not overlong, good for carding but can be combed, plenty of crimp so lots of sproing (technical term to spinners and handknitters), extremely hard-wearing, takes dye well, very difficult to felt.  Lots of stories of socks and slippers that don't shrink and won't wear out.

[Stanlamb]

Grrr - I can't see Zak's photos.  Wonder why?  Tried on both iPad and computer.

Sally, yes I see your point about the mules and multiples with a Texel.  My only experience of Texels is when, years back, my Uncle bought a few pedigrees.  Not one lambed herself.  They were torture.  I recall at least 2 c-sections out of only half a dozen ewes.  Maybe bad luck and they were first-timers.  Can't recall whether it was any better in subsequent years.  Interesting about the Dutch texel but from what you say may be too expensive for me.

Am dreaming rams and breeds this last few nights - not good! 

[ZaktheLad]

Is this photo any better?

[Stanlamb]

Oh yes, thank you.  Wow, those are great lambs.  I'm almost sold    Need to make enquiries about getting the other boy out and I know the first place I'd try for a HD.   

[feldar]

Hampshire Down every time but i do love them rather

[Stanlamb]

Meant to say earlier ... Sally thanks for the tip about feeding the ram pre-tupping.  You learn something new each year 

One last (for now) question.  What age of ram/lamb should I look for?  Our present boy was 9 months when we got him and tupped that same year.  I'm guessing I need to go along the same lines - something born December or last spring?  Would an early spring lamb from this year be too young?

Thank you!!