there seems to be as much ignorane on the omnivore front as the extremist vegab front, judging by the, frankly unoriginal, statements of late.
allow me as a diplomatic and open minded vegan to explain all the points you claim to be the ones that you find hardest to understand.
so GBov- please tell me if i can help with anything else:
1) mink. firstly Man introduced a non native species to the uk to exploit for its fur. they were kept singly in barren cages- not a life at all worth living. True releasing them into the wild was not ok. Fact- many escaped of their own accord anyway. Also fact- many animal welfare & rights groups are anti the actions of those that released these animals- acknowledging the devastating consequences to native wildlife and also at the actual ability of the non-native to survive (as with the coypu in Norfolk also). Fur farming should be banned and i dont think many folk would feel a loss to the countryside if this form of animal exploitation were stopped overnight.
2) there is no difference at all to the fox hunting and eating a rabbit, to a lion hunting and eating a deer, from you hunting and eating your kill. BUT- how many consumers actually do go and get their own meat- from killing it and doing all the things necessary to eat it?
![Huh? ???](https://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/Smileys/default/huh.gif)
And not just because they dont live in the countryside but because a huge number of meat eaters do not want to accept the death part of the food production. If anyone is a hypocrit it is not the vegan with best intentions but it is the meat eater who wont kill an animal themselves!
3) i have already explained how a vegan society would come about- animals would NOT be killed off in a a bloody wave- animals currently alive would be sheltered and NO MORE BREEDING would then bring about the end of livestock farming over a fairly long period of time, possibly decades. I really hate repeating myself.
4)actually i do not eat or drink soy (maybe for us vegans 30 years ago it was all about the soy- and you can blame the italian mafia for that- they destroyed the development of bacterial protein back in the day to protect their business interests- dont blame the consumer. A lot of vegans are also well informed environmentalists and boycott not only soy but anything with palm oil in (which a lot of commercial vegan processed foods also contain). Processed food in general are never all that great are they? We are very aware of what is in our food, and its provenance- but it is not that tricky, or a restrictive diet to be able to buy ethical and environmentally soundly. And on a budget (i aint made of money!!)
5) talking about ships and shipping never forget the business of shipping live animals to foreign lands (not policed by our laws) for slaughter- not only from uk but from NZ and Oz and others- 15,000 sheep drowned when a ship sank in Romania only recently. But thats ok i suppose- they were only going to be killed anyways- right?! : If the UK can feed its own why is the export of live animals still continuing? It is true- money and power!
6) I strongly dispute the statement that domestication of animals came about to utilise foodstuffs we can not. NO! Carnivores (ate the same as us and hunted it with us) were our security and companions, Man domesticated the few herbivores it did because it meant a more reliable meal- rather than going out searching for that animal and (like the rest of the meat eating animal kingdom) only have a 50% success rate of getting a meal (im a zoologist i can explain these figures if you want) why not corral them and have a 100% success rate of catching and eating them? Simples. And not all herbivores were domesticated cos their natural behaviour was not adaptable to meet humans confinement requirements.
7) likewise when meat eaters tell me they have produced all their own food i will respect their movement. Touche.
And Steph Hen, everything you said i agree with except the neutering thing- the reason why neutering is necessary is cos Man does not deal with the fallout. We are already suffering from the over population of cats and dogs due to breeding - with the resultant litters being neglected or dumped at animal shelters- again ive said this before- shelters are full to the rafters with unwanted dogs and cats- does that demonstrate a society that should be allowed to exploit animals without consequence? Tells me vegans arguement against having pets may have a point. There may be extremist vegans but there are plenty of animal abusing/ neglecting humans too sadly. So in the face of a society with pet animals i wholeheartedly condone sterilisation (you can not claim that a domestic animal has in any way shape or form a normal life in order to then prioritise the "normal behaviour" of procreation. I went the to HSA AGM many years ago and asked if a local anaestetic for lay farmers might ever be available for farmers to castrate lambs humanely. I am anti tail docking. They said no- that the pain caused was short lived and the number of sheep castrated annually made it unlikely a farmer would afford such a luxury- they suggested farmers alter their management methods in order to make castration unnecessary as a way to avoid having to do it, if they were against it. At that same meeting a very voiciferous group argued against the culling of day old male chicks via the mincer method. They were shot down, saying the killing took milliseconds and the chicks would be unaware. However over a decade later now many egg producing companies have researched ways to sex the eggs so that soon no male chicks will ever be born in this industry and so male chick mincing will be obsolete
![Smiley :)](https://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)
Progress.