[in the hills]

Mmmmm  and reading that Doganjo it states hip testing to be carried out. Reading "Border Collies" by B. Sykes at the moment and she says that she does not believe HD has ever been a problem in BC and that good qualities could be lost if we spent too much time breeding for the perfect body. She does stress the importance of soundness however.


I can't see mention of hip testing in information I am reading about health checks required by the ISDS. This is what my neighbour will be familiar with and not KC recommendations ...... he is I believe a very responsible breeder, owner and trainer but works to ISDS rules and regulations and not KC. I presume this organisation has the interests of BC as its priority so I wonder why there is a difference there. ...... Or have I got that wrong ..... still trying to get the facts together.

[Mammyshaz]

He said that in general they were a healthy breed and that most PRA had been eliminated. He said that CEA did not usually cause total blindness and that the pup would have it when bought and it did not usually get worse. Said some people wouldn't realize that their dog had it.

ITH I'm afraid that PRA is a disease which gets worse over time and often by 3-5 years the dog can be completely blind.

PRA= Progressive Retinal Atrophy which means the disease of the retina steadily gets worse. It starts with difficulty seeing in the dark then low light and finally cannot see at all in daylight. Some cases are more severe than others, there is no telling how quickly the sight is going to deteriorate.

It is still widespread, possibly because people are still breeding without checking whether one or both parents are carriers.

[sabrina]

My vet said that collie eye can be detected at 6wks. My neice has a Border Collie who is coming up to 4 years old. Ben has had both hips done at a cost of £3, 500 . He was bought in lanarkshire.

[Mammyshaz]

Forgot to say CEA is more commonly a mild form in collies but there are reports of severe cases which lead to blindness. Again, you  won't know how severe it will get, although it tends to be severe quite early on in the dogs life if it is going to be severe.

It can be painful as the tissue at the back of the eye can bleed.

HD is less common in working collies I think because they are chosen for workability rather than a show dog. It was rare in GSDs before they became popular for show and pets. Now the police are looking at Belgian shepherds (Malinois )because of less inherited conditions and more ability to do a days work than the now spoilt GSD ( but I still love them  )

[in the hills]

Yes Mammyshaz that fits with what my neighbour said ..... PRA caused blindness and was usually a more severe condition than CEA. His pups must have just had the CEA test .... only a few weeks old and the whole litter was being tested at the same time. He thought that in a lot of cases this did not cause complete blindness, unlike PRA.


I am aware of PRA from dealing with gundogs but only learning about CEA.


Interesting about GSDs ..... could a similar thing be happening then to BC's in the show world ..... hence the KC stating HD testing as a requirement but not the isds (from what I have found so far). Oh dear .

[Mammyshaz]

It is a big possibility, but there again I'm not a lover of the show world. 

Show dogs are bred to look to what a written standard specifies. There are many ( not all ) of these dogs which should be able to work, struggle to walk around the block    but they look good in a ring 

I try to stick to working lines from dam and sire, and choose ones that I can see or have seen previous litters which have hit adulthood. It's not totally foolproof but the odds on a subsequent good litter is high

[in the hills]

I know exactly what you mean Mammyshaz.     My father used to show Flat-Coats and think I still know the breed standard word for word.    They are smashing dogs and I still love them but they do have problems ..... high cancer incidence  .  Puts me off having another. And as for some poor breeds  .

[Cheviot]

Hi,
I just typed my post and was previewing it, when it said there had been another 5 posts, so applogies if I seem to be repeating what has already been posted.

I breed and train ISDS reg border collies, you cannot register any puppies until both parents are eye tested by an approved vet for CEA & PRA, some dogs are also DNA tested for CEA. When a dog has been DNA tested and the result comes back as either having CEA or as a carrier, you can still breed from these animals, BUT only if bred to a DNA tested clear animal, the resulting pups would then need to be microchipped and DNA tested before they can be registered, the results of the DNA test will then be printed on the reg certificate. I believe that the only way to be sure when vetinary eye testing for CEA is to test puppies under 8 WEEKS of age, after that, carriers of CEA can sometimes appear to "go normal".
As for hip scoring, I personally don't do it, as any dog I have that cannot do a hard day, gathering ewes and lambs out on the hill, would never be bred from, but the incidence of HD in collies that actually work stock is very low.
The very first dog that I bought as a pup, and then trained, had CEA, I didn't find out untill he was 2 years old, but I thought something wasn't quite right, however once I knew what the problem was, I found that I could work around it. When I took him sheepdog trialling, I could only send him on a left hand outrun, he always crossed on the right, and sometimes when he was following sheep he would appear to lose sight of them, he was a great dog and did very well for me, he lived until he was just short of his 16 birthday, and is buried in the orchard, under a greengage tree.

[in the hills]

Thank you Cheviot.    Corrr ..... it's not simple is it.    Your post is really helpful to us, as we know very little about collies and I am eager to find out/understand as much as possible.  Your post will help us to know what to ask. 

[colliewoman]

Cheviot, when the time rolls round for me to have another collie pupper (not for many years yet  )I'm coming to you

[happygolucky]

that is so clear and concise.....

[in the hills]

That's what I thought CW ..... but quite far from us in Powys .... I checked 

[doganjo]

Cheviot - "but the incidence of HD in collies that actually work stock is very low" -  is that a personal observation or can it be proved?  I'm wondering why the KC stipulate hip testing as 'required' by their Assured Breeder Scheme rather than just recommended.  These Assured Breeders, although they may register dogs with the KC, are quite often working their dogs rather than showing.  The AB scheme is not just for show breeders, it is for all breeders who want to register their dogs with the KC.  I don't know much about the ISDS (or collies to be honest) so I am also grateful for the information.

It should be noted that Breed Standards were originally written by working owners not show ones.

[SallyintNorth]

I had a GSD x Collie once - as rescue, so the parentage was a guess, but I'm pretty sure that was the cross - a very fit and agile dog, jumped stone walls and gates at a single leap, even in his old age when he was a bit arthritic and needed help over stiles there were still no symptoms of displasia.  But I'd had his hips x-rayed when he was anaesthetised for castration, just so's I'd know - and they were terrible.  Hardly any cup to the socket at all, the vet said.  He never showed any symptoms because (a) he was always very active and fit and had loads of muscles to help hold things together and (b) collies are very stoic - so even if there is pain, they often don't give any sign of it. 

[sabrina]

Its hard to find any breed of dog without some problem. I lost two Irish Setters to cancer. Now its common in lots of dogs and cats. would be interesting if research was done into their food. Did cancer in our pets start with ready to feed meals or has it always been there. I once read an article from a Canadain vet who said that years ago it was rare and lots of dogs lived well into their teens and he was doing a study with dogs that were only fed the way owners did in the past. We lost a German Shepherd pup at 5 months, hip joints so bad she could not hold herself up. All the paper work was made up, not any of it was from the parents. People will do anything for money.