[Porterlauren]

I could do with some opinions! I've been in discussions today over some grazing for sheep, that I am planning to rent. A bit of background to it is needed - a woman up the road has about 18 acres, and for the last couple of years has rented it to a local couple to keep their pair of horses on. . .

Now, obviously two horses don't make a huge dent in 18 acres of grass, so the couple have also cut haylage, shutting up a few of the fields in spring, and getting quite a few bales, and usually a second cut.

Now a while ago I visited for other reasons, saw the farm and saw that at least two of the fields are too steep to cut, and are basically going to s**t because they are just being lightly grazed by horses and left apart from that. I enquired about running my sheep in there and the woman was delighted, saying she really wanted sheep on the ground. I've subsequently realised this is partly to manage the grass and partly to keep it as agricultural land rather than have to sign it over as equine. Anyway, she asked it I could stick some in her small orchard asap as the gras was out of control, and that we could agree a rent for some of the rest of the ground. I stuck a few ewe lambs into the orchard, after topping it, and they have been there a couple of weeks happily munching away.

I went today to speak about the rest of the land, and arrange moving some ewes in this week. The lady was pleased but said that as she rented the grazing to the couple with the horses, rather than paying her the money, I should arrange it with the horse people. Previously we had discussed what would be a fair price, and settled at the usual local rate of 75 and acre for a couple of fields.

Anyway, I rang the horse folk today and they had a slightly different plan. They are suggesting that I pay 50 pence per life per week, but instead of just using the two fields, I could use the others after their horses are moved off. . . . however would be shut out of those they cut for hay from spring.

They also want a sum per lamb per week once born.

I get to cut no hay etc.

Does that sound fair to you?

I can't help but feel that they want me to pay more than half the rent, to only be able to use what land I'm told I can, when I can, and only after horses have eaten the best grazing. . . . and will lose access to the majority of it while rearing lambs. . . . .

Anyone else ever had the same type of rental price, per life, per week?

[twizzel]

I guess it just boils down to a. how much you need the grazing and b. how many sheep you're intending to put up there?

If the landlord is allowing the horsey people to sublet it then I guess it is their decision on what terms it is let, sounds like they don't really want to share with the sheep though and are therefore making access to fields difficult, stipulations here and there. I'd have a quiet word with the landlord and see what s/he says in response to how the horsey people want to play it.

If it's good grazing and you need it I would think about putting the sheep out on it over winter once the lambs are weaned and then bring them closer to home for lambing. If you are only doing it to help the landowner and have enough grass of your own then I would probably say no thanks. Horsey people are a breed of their own and can be quite awkward sometimes !

[SallyintNorth]

It's quite normal up here to send ewe lambs away 'on tack' for the winter on a per life per week basis.  50p would normally include 'looking', ie., day to day checks on the sheep.

If they made it 30p per life per week, and you stocked at 5 sheep per acre, that would come out to an equivalent of £78 per acre per annum, wouldn't it?

As to the hay... if you have your own haymaking equipment, the equations might be different, but if they'd agree to *sell* you some hay at whatever the going rate is, that might be a lot less hassle than making it yourself - and cost about the same.

All of which said, I agree that horsey folk can be a little bit different

[OhLaLa]

I never let my land out, can become too problematic, but everything sounds reasonable to me (apart from the fact it is a sublet).
Keeping a headcount might be difficult for them if you have a lot of sheep so I'd also be asking you how many sheep you wanted to put on it too.
And I'd be wanting to go through what you require/who is responsible re water, fencing, shelter, field checks etc. Plus I'd do it all in writing with the rental period and rent specified.
----
* I wouldn't let anyone sublet, so if i was the owner I would have told you no from the outset, but to approach me again at the end of the current contract when maybe we could make some arrangement re the steep fields if they were to become available.

[JulieWall]

I can't imagine that any land used by horses and having had hay cut from it for several years running is going to be able to support a high stocking density. Have a good look at the state of it before deciding if your lambs will thrive on it, it could be all docks and buttercup by now. I would have thought the horse owners would be glad to share with a few sheep as they should control each others parasites used in a proper rotation.
Sounds like too much hassle to me, I wouldn't get involved with subletting, if there's a problem who takes responsibility? Where does the buck stop?

[Marches Farmer]

I agree with the notes of caution expressed above.  The horsey folk clearly don't know much about sheep.  Does the owner get SFP?  If so she appears to want to retain the payment by keeping the land in good agricultural condition without any effort on her own part.

[langfauld easycare]

  about here its 50-60p a head for winter grazing ,hogs are cheaper 35-45p .(smaller and primative breeds are usualy less) i would not want to be paying anything like that for summer grazing . any unweaned lambs would also not be counted (never heard of anyone charging for lambs still on mum). i have lost a few lambs and ewes over the years due to being kicked by horses so much so i stopped grazing horsey places unless i was really stuck . it does sound as if you are going to end up paying for there grazing
50p per head @52 weeks £26 per ewe
plus a charge for lambs = no profit


i have grazed a few bits like this and got the grazing for free just to sort the grass out .
the rate would be fair enough for winter grazing might be worth putting them on just for that . 

[OhLaLa]

L.E. has brought up a good point which I didn't mention earlier - horses and sheep together isn't a good idea, although plenty do it. Lots of us have horses as well as sheep.

For various reasons, including the one mentioned, I never put my horses and sheep together. Never have, never will.

[Ideation]

Thanks for all of the thoughts.

The horses and sheep wouldnt share a field at any point, the small farm is divided into about a half dozen fields, which the horses only ever occupy one of at any time.

This is a slightly complicated case of sub letting - basically one of the stipulations of the owners agreement with the horse people is that sheep are also run on the farm - partly due to the SFP and partly to stop it becomming equine land, and so incurring death duties. They dont know anyone local with sheep and ended up having a load of hill sheep on tack there last year, which were rarely checked, and escapped a lot. The owner refuses to have those same sheep back - but is very keen to have mine on there (it happens to be pretty close to my house).

The owner would rather the sheep than the horses, but I dont think she wants to boot the horse people off because they are also local, but basically they have way too much grazing for their two old horses and the land is just not getting managed right.

LE - Ive done the maths and there isnt a lot of room for profit at that price, But I think I may be able to swing it that there is no charge for lambs until they go for slaughter.

I feel slightly between a rock and a hard place - as the owner clearly really wants me on there and the horse people clearly do not.

I will probably take it on over this winter and see what happens - it's quite possible in a 'us or him' situation - they wont come out favourably! 

[Blacksheep]

If the fencing isn't secure for sheep then the price should be reduced further as you will be responsible for ensuring that the fencing is adequate, and remember those prices per week include checking the sheep.    I am surprised that the horse people don't want sheep on the pasture as cross grazing it will certainly be good for the grass and for reducing parasite burdens. Do  you know how much they are paying for the field?

[Ideation]

I don't think they know much about sheep, and I think all they look at it as, is a way of getting most of the rent paid, and still getting to do as they please, when they please.

No one will be checking the sheep at all, or doing anything with them.

On the upside the fences are decent enough.

[twizzel]

I'm not sure why the horse people should get the rent to be honest- unless they are maintaining all of the land in which case they should be grateful for sheep to chew down the grass if they are over run with it. If the landlady wants you to graze then she should reduce what she's charging the horse people and have 2 tenants rather than let the horse people sublet - or things could get a bit complicated.

[Castle Farm]

Look at it like this.


How many lambs would you need to sell to pay for the grazing.

[mowhaugh]

If they are that keen to have sheep, how about you lease them some of yours?  Cheaper than them buying their own, they avoid their death duty issue which sounds expensive, and you get your grazing free.

[Porterlauren]

Mowhaugh - That was the way I initially saw it going, as the sheep would be doing the owners a favour on a few fronts (death duties and fixing the ground after the horses!). I was happy enough to pay a fair price per acre though, and re-fenced their orchard to allow the first few sheep to go in there, I also topped it.

I also thought that my agreement would be with the landowner as she (when the horse people could not secure any sheep last year, had some welsh in on tack, which she sorted out the rent (or so I thought).

I think the horse people don't know much about sheep and their logic is that as I am 'making money' from the sheep, I can afford to pay silly money, which would effectively cover probably more than half their rent, but still allow them to graze their horses on all the best stuff, as and when they want, and make some profit by cutting the haylage off a couple of the fields.

Well, a batch of ewes are going on tomorrow, so it will be interesting to see how it turns out, if nothing else, I will graze them over winter there, as its conveniently local. . . . who knows what will happen by April!