[BLACKSHEEP46]

IAnyone know if it is possible to encourage a curling horn on Herdwick ram lamb to curl away from the face as it's in danger of touching his cheek.  I don't want to cut it off in case he turns into a show class ram.  i have heard it is possible using heat and an asbestos pad - sounds tricky.  Surely not a blow torch ?  Any experience out there ?  Thank you.

[Foobar]

You can turn it, but is it really worth it?  I would cut off the end with cheese wire and send the little fella for the chop as soon as he's ready.  I wouldn't want to keep his genetics for breeding.

[Fleecewife]

You can turn it, but is it really worth it?  I would cut off the end with cheese wire and send the little fella for the chop as soon as he's ready.  I wouldn't want to keep his genetics for breeding.

Agree - he's already shown by the ingrowing horn that he's not suitable for breeding.  Surely we show our sheep as fine examples of the breed and as potential breeding stock, so reshaping horns shouldn't be part of the show prep.

[SallyintNorth]

reshaping horns shouldn't be part of the show prep.

Oh, but it is...  I have a relative is a horn turner.

I agree it might be better to breed from only stock with well-shaped horns - but would there be a risk that in focussing on the horns, other characteristics suffer?  A bit like breeding dogs for a particular shape of head...  or so many many pure breds of all species for specific colouring at the expense of conformation, which I always think is bonkers.

[Fleecewife]

But Sally - horns which grow into the face/head are incompatible with life, because they will eventually grow into and through the skull, or press so hard against the face as to cause long term pain.  Colour and patterns are just cosmetic and a completely different kettle of fish.   
Potential breeders see an animal at a show and decide to buy their tup from that breeder or worse, that line, not knowing that their new flock sire will produce offspring with misshapen horns.   I think it's only fair if you are buying an animal to see it as it really is.   
 
However, for welfare reasons, yes, it is certainly possible to turn horns.  The old fashioned way was with a hot turnip, wasn't it?   We chop any off which impede grazing or impinge on the face.

[SteveHants]

I have cut off bits of ingrowing horn with loppers, seems to work fine and there is no need for blowtorches etc - I have always been careful not to cut too far back and have not had any bleed so far.


It (probably) goes without saying that I would not breed from such a sheep though.

[jaykay]

I was always having to saw off Rough Fell tup horns.

Do it with a small saw or a 'cheese wire' - tougher stuff, obviously, sold for the job.

In Roughs, they are bred from and shown - sawn off horns are no detriment to showing.

A source of considerable argument, since some of us feel as Fleecewife, but 'tight horns' also go with a massive head and solid carcass, whilst wider horns go with a much lighter, 'scrawny' body. The former is prized and so the horns are tolerated. Wrongly in some folks' opinion.

The sensible view, and if horns are part of the showing in Herdies, would be that he is not showing material, so saw off his horns for his own good. You can feel where the blood and nerves reach to - that bit is hot, whilst the 'dead' bit is cooler (easier to feel in the winter or first thing in the morning).

I have seen sheep with holes drilled through their horns, so that a bolt could be put through from one curl to the next, to train them away from the face. I can't help but think this must hurt, like braces on your teeth, and the hole gives away the game anyway.

[zarzar]

we got one whos horns grow in but then she did bash them up really badly when a lamb so will breed from her once and see if the lambs do to but all the others fro same line are fine so fingers crossed. 

[Herdygirl]

 
I have Herdies, if the horns are growing in then he is not show material or good enough to breed from. Chop the ends off and, as foobar says, grow him on and enjoy him with veg.

[SallyintNorth]

horns which grow into the face/head are incompatible with life, because they will eventually grow into and through the skull, or press so hard against the face as to cause long term pain.

I guess the thinking is that these are now domesticated agricultural animals, who will be shepherded and any problems dealt with, so that such horns are not incompatible with life because they will be sawn off or turned away.  It would make them incompatible with an easy-care regime, such as SteveHants', of course.

It'd be quite different in a breed that's managed in a semi-feral way - and Herdies could maybe be thought of in that way, so it makes sense that in that breed, any ingrowing horn would debar an animal from being used for breeding.  (Ditto any used in an 'easy care' system.)

I'm not arguing for horn turning, just giving another side to the picture.  I don't know enough about breeding tups in the breeds where sawn-off and/or turned horns are commonplace to have an informed opinion of my own.  In an ideal world, any less than perfect animals would not be used for breeding, especially tups. of course.

I have a couple of Manxes, with multiple horns and strange shapes they describe too.  On telly recently there was a flock of very healthy Manxes, all of which had perfectly shaped identical two horns each - just like Castlemilk Moorit horns, in fact.  I can see why someone breeding Manxes would select for such horns - but I thought it was a shame and would hate to see it happen to the breed as a whole.

[Moobli]

You can either heat the ends with a blowtorch and gentle heat, especially on a lamb, is not a problem.  Or you can buy tup horn springs from Carrs Billington.  You drill a small hole near the ends of the horn and fasten the spring in one side (it goes round the back of the neck and fastens at the other side) and then as he starts to pump horn out, the pressure of the springs will widen it.  Within no time at all, unless they are pointed right into his face just now, you will have a tup with wide horns, well clear of his face.  If the points are right in his face now, you will need to turn the ends out with heat and then use the springs.  Hubby has done this scores of times with Blackies (it is quite a normal procedure) and works every time (more or less).

[VSS]

IME, horn shape is not strongly inherited. We have had rams with perfect horns (naturally that way, not turned) that throw lambs with poor horns, and vice versa. Sometimes a ram lamb will slightly knock a horn bud when it is tiny and as a result the shape will be spoilt.

What you do about it is up to you, and in our case is determined by what will happen to the tup in the long term. If they are to be kept at home as stock rams, problem horns are just cut if needed with the dehorning wire. We have shown tups with cut horns to no detriment - if you cut one horn, just be sure you trim the other on to match. If they are for sale as commercial tups the decision as to whether to turn or cut the horns usually depends on how it will affect the look and balance of the ram.

[Hevxxx99]

I've never done it myself, but an old shepherd I knew used to turn horns on Swaledale tups with a blowtourch and something to protect the face: I think it was wet sacking.  He also used to cut them off with a wire if necessary.  These weren't show animals, just normal farmed sheep.

I agree that the curl of the horn doesn't seem particularly inherited and evironmental factors play a major role on the bend.