Smallholders Insurance from Greenlands

Author Topic: Hello from a newbie  (Read 12754 times)

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2015, 06:22:41 pm »
I'm not sure if you are thinking of fattening wethers only, or keeping ewes and breeding.  If you are thinking about milk, then I guess you are thinking of breeding females.

If it's unimproved grassland in Cumbria, and you want lambs, and want to sell fleeces, then I would say that 25 and no hay over winter won't work.  You'd be likely to get ewes with insufficient milk, metabolic disorders, breaks in the fleece from times when they were physiologically stressed (fleece with a break is not saleable.) 

Also, when counting your numbers, you have to think about your steady state.  If you are going primitives, and fattening your own lambs, then most of your lambs will stay on until their second summer.  So if you start with 25 ewes, the following winter you will have 25 ewes (less losses and culls) plus most of their 30-40 lambs from the first year growing on. 

If you are wanting to sell fleeces, you'll need to keep the lambs on to their first shearing, which means that in your second spring you will have the ewes, their last year's lambs, now hoggs (adult sized, not yet clipped), and their this year's lambs.

If you plan on selling the lambs as stores, then you probably want to be using a commercial tup, or you will struggle to get more than £laughable a head for your store lambs. Shetland ewes are quite capable of having Texel x lambs - but it will take more out of her and she will need cake as well as hay over winter, and probably cake to help her when she lambs, especially if she has twins.

Primitives also need space when they lamb; they are not happy having to lamb in close proximity to other sheep.  If you lamb indoors you will need a lambing shed; if you lamb outdoors then you need enough space so that the ewes can keep their new lambs safe from the rest of the flock, especially the giddy teenagers (the previous year's lambs) until they are used to these funny new arrivals.

I keep my fleece flock in a spot where I have the use of 25 acres of unimproved riverside meadow and pasture.  At the moment down there I have 14 breeding ewes, 11 retained hoggs and 27 lambs from this year.  The 10 acres of meadow was barely enough space and grass for them at lambing, so I let them use the pastures as well.  (It was a very cold spring.  It would have been a different story if we'd had warm weather.)  The grass is finally growing away, and I have shut up the hay meadow.  The cattle will be going down to the pasture soon, so the sheep will be barred into 6 acres of meadows.  It'll be enough, I'm sure - but it wouldn't be sufficient for twice the number.

Frankly, on 6 acres of the type of ground you describe, I'd start with maybe 8-10 breeding ewes and their followers.  Perhaps buy in some ewes with their ewe and wether lambs and some one-year old hoggs this year, so you have enough to eat the grass for your first year, hoggets to sell in the autumn, and a crop of fleeces and some meat to sell this time next year.  By then your ewes will have had another lot of lambs and you are in your steady state.

And before all you southern and east coast sheepkeepers jump up, this fella is in Cumbria, like me.  Our grass isn't like what you folks have.  It's why our livestock sells so well as stores - you take creatures that have managed to get to weanling size in Cumbria, they'll grow on into monsters anywhere else! lol.  Mind, we are at 450-500' here, very exposed (although the riverside land is lower and sheltered.)  I have no personal experience of farming the land nearer the west coast.
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Jon Feather

  • Joined Jun 2015
  • South West Cumbria
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2015, 07:06:26 pm »
Thanks for that Anke.  Mine isn't a rented field, it's our own but we are in a Higher Level Stewardship scheme and the agreement states that the whole of the land has to be continuously grazed and not parcelled off.  I'm prety sure it does anyway: I'll have to check.  Subdividing isn't really practical on our field anyway because of the ever changing terrain. 

I have asked local farmers to mow our field before but none will put their machines through it because they don't know what they will hit: occasional rocks etc. and the old kist (earth and stone field boundaries from when it was smaller fields put them off.

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2015, 07:29:39 pm »
Yes, mowing would be impractical.  But someone with a flail topper may be able to give it a haircut ;)
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2015, 07:33:02 pm »
Oh, another thing, Jon...  Were you planning on keeping the horses?  If so, the number of sheep the field can carry would need revising downwards.

Also, if you can't subdivide your field, I'm not sure I'd want to lamb in a field that has ponies in it.  Too much risk of a horse kicking or treading on a lamb.  We don't lamb in fields with cattle, as we had the occasional injured lamb when we did.


Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Jon Feather

  • Joined Jun 2015
  • South West Cumbria
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2015, 07:55:19 pm »
Waw! SallyintNorth.  Thanks for you time and input.  Like all you guys, lots of valuable great advice and ideas.  This is exactly the sort of informed info Lesley and I need.  Far far better than reading books or webpages.  A big thank you.

Crawlybumlickin over.  We don't yet know exactly what we want to do but it will be more on the breeding and building a flock for meat and fleeces than buying in and fattening.  That isn't really us.

At the moment, as of last Sunday, we have 23 sheared Herwicks on the field and there is a "Fur and Feather" sale coming up in July at Ulverston Auction Mart.  Hopefully we can come up with the start of a flock by then or at the auction, although I would prefer to buy from a recommended breeder.

Jon Feather

  • Joined Jun 2015
  • South West Cumbria
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2015, 08:00:07 pm »
Sally.  Good point about the horses trampling the lambs.. That might be a bit of a problem because the horses are keepers.  We might be able to semi subdivide  :innocent: enough room for the horses at lambing time though with a few strands of electric fence.

If we did this, how long would they have to be kept apart?

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2015, 08:33:08 pm »
If we did this, how long would they have to be kept apart?

Ach, I'm a softie and can't bear for things to get hurt if I could have prevented it.  But given your circs...

Well... assuming your lambing lasts 34 days (two cycles), I guess perhaps 70 days?  Start keeping them separate a week before you expect your first lamb, keep them separate until the youngest lambs are at least a month old?

In practise, by then the lambs will be running around and getting under the horses' leccy tape anyway.  ::)
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2015, 08:34:23 pm »
So... have you chosen a breed?
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Jon Feather

  • Joined Jun 2015
  • South West Cumbria
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2015, 08:42:47 pm »
Not chosen a breed yet.  I like to do my homework and listen to as many experts as possible first.  Better that way than rush in, get the wrong sort of animal and find that I have made a mistake.  But I'm still drawn to Shetlands.  Although my neighbour runs a flock of Hebredian.  They are only 2 fields over from me.

How would you rate Shetland over Hebredian?

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2015, 09:17:22 pm »
Shetlands definitely - soooo much variety of colours to sell fleece/skins, no horns on the ewes, and much nicer fleece (but some heb breeder will hit me over the head now...) to spin/felt.

It would be much easier to buy from breeders local to you, I wouldn't advise a newcomer to sheep to go and buy at auction. But you maybe should go and have a look and see what prices are being paid.

Also you may have to think registered & pedigree vs non-pedigree, if you are not going to make serious efforts towards showing your sheep you may struggle to sell any of your ewes as breeding stock and therefore the higher prices registered ewes would command may not be justified.

I would seriously think about a wether flock - buy in a few castrated male lambs in the autumn, keep over winter, shear and maybe if you don't like some of them sell the meat to friends in the next autumn, buy in some replacements. They will need minimal feeding, will keep their fleece quality for quite a few years (after all no testosterone to ruin it and no lambing pressure - as would be on females - either, life of Riley really... and will be really quite friendly (with the occasional food bucket rattled of course).

Lots of things too think about....

Jon Feather

  • Joined Jun 2015
  • South West Cumbria
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2015, 11:00:36 pm »
Well that has thrown me.....I always thought castrated rams would only be good for meat but you seem to be suggesting they are good to keep for their fleece.

I was thinking, and I know nowt about sheep, that you start with a flock of ewes and a ram or 2.  Ram does the (cough, cough) business, some months later the lambs pop out (that might not be the proper term), you keep the females as future breeding stock to expand the flock, fatten up the males and send males to butcher.  The odd haircut brings in another few quid from the spinners and knitters. 
I have such a lot to learn but I'm learning very quickly thanks to you guys.   :thumbsup:


SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2015, 11:23:56 pm »
Spinners mostly won't want a ram's fleece, but a wether often has a lovely fleece.  He hasn't any other work to use up his energies, after all, so some people reckon that wethers often have better fleece than ewes, who have worked so hard growing lambs and rearing them.

Given the horse situation, you are going to want a tight lambing, which means putting the tup in for 35 days and then taking him out.  As you don't have anywhere else to keep him, he will get sent to the mart at that point - ie., December.  Forget the fleece; it'll stink, no matter how much it gets washed. 
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Bramblecot

  • Joined Jul 2008
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2015, 09:54:36 pm »
And if folk tell you that Shetlands are always wild...here are some of our lot helping bring in the hay today ::) :hugsheep:

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2015, 10:30:37 pm »
Shetlands are not really wild in my experience, mine have not jumped fences either (although a bought-in ewe is well able to do so...) and they come running when I go into their field, even without a bucket!

But one of my late lambs from last year has learned how to open gates... :rant:

devonlady

  • Joined Aug 2014
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2015, 07:34:04 am »
If you were to run a flock of Shetland wethers you could make a small income by spinning and knitting the fleeces yourselves, or having them professionly spun and doing the knitting (and yes, men can learn to knit!) Folk would pay good money for the finished product.

 

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