[jaykay]

I'm glad you've bought them Leghorn, now they're getting proper care 

[bigchicken]

Leghorn I appreciate you have a very caring attitude and I can not disagree with anyone who's heart is in the right place, My point is that there are people who target lets say the softer hearted. bringing there rubbish to the sales where they know that there will be childred, townies,the inexperienced and the I,ll save these poor birds, At these sales all lots are sold as seen  if you buy birds that are not as you though you saw then that's you responsibility as they were sold as seen. If you have a complant about welfare it must be made before you  buy and must be persued vigorously, if there is no independent animal welfare person in attendance which there should be then tell the mart that you will be calling  the RSPCA. Let me assure you they will take that very seriously as they have to as they are usually terrified of getting a bad report. Please remember that the mart are acting as the sellers agent and it is the seller who is responsible for the condition of any stock up for sale and usually the mart have no person with the experience to refuse incorrect birds being put up for sale and the office staff have even less. BUYER BEWARE.             Dogango your pressure and others complants were useful as Stirling mart no longer sell poultry  My advice make a phone call to animal welfare for an officer to be present at the sale

[Mel]

Leghorn I appreciate you have a very caring attitude and I can not disagree with anyone who's heart is in the right place, My point is that there are people who target lets say the softer hearted. bringing there rubbish to the sales where they know that there will be childred, townies,the inexperienced and the I,ll save these poor birds, At these sales all lots are sold as seen  if you buy birds that are not as you though you saw then that's you responsibility as they were sold as seen. If you have a complant about welfare it must be made before you  buy and must be persued vigorously, if there is no independent animal welfare person in attendance which there should be then tell the mart that you will be calling  the RSPCA. Let me assure you they will take that very seriously as they have to as they are usually terrified of getting a bad report. Please remember that the mart are acting as the sellers agent and it is the seller who is responsible for the condition of any stock up for sale and usually the mart have no person with the experience to refuse incorrect birds being put up for sale and the office staff have even less. BUYER BEWARE.             Dogango your pressure and others complants were useful as Stirling mart no longer sell poultry  My advice make a phone call to animal welfare for an officer to be present at the sale

OK,I can almost see the point you are making here,however,I am not a child,I do know how auctions run after dealing in Antiques for over 20 years,I do have some insight into how they work.

I cannot however agree with your comments relating to birds or animals as Rubbish.I cannot see any as such regardless of their condition and should not be treated as such.

I did not say the birds were not as I thought they were,I thought I had said precisely about the circumstances when at the auction,as far as I was aware,there were no welfare officials there,I am certain there were not due to some having foamy eyes. Unfortunately,like all auctions,all items are sold as is,whether it is Livestock,poultry,cars or Antiques,and all of them fail to accept liability or responsibility for anything which is sold via them.

My point is that when it comes to animals it is a different issue and they should be held accountable for allowing poor poultry to be sold in their auction,especially when they brag they have been into poultry sales for over 100 years!

I just thought I would add,when you say "usually the mart have no person with experience" is utter piffle because as per fabian Eagles website:

"Fabian Eagle's family has been involved in poultry farming for over a hundred years"

Now you tell me,they have no idea what they are selling!

[bigchicken]

Leghorn my comments were a general overview of my thoughts on the welfare of poultry at sales and in no way am I in disagreement with your good intentions they are to be comended. In fact I agree with you 100% about marts or sales being held responsible for animals going through there hands being much more selective in the birds they allow to be sold. This is a country wide issue and should be taken very  very seriously so I will repeat if anyone has an issue with animal welfare at a sale contact the animal welfare people and they will do something about it. these sales are carried out under licence which can be revoked. If thee is no animal welfare officer there contact them and ask why! make you concerns known they will act on them. only by having a welfare presence will the people who sell lets say poorer, unwell, ill, less fortunate call it what you will be discourage from attending these sales and it will maybe make them look at there animals welfare in a different more acceptable way.

[Mel]

I do agree with you Bigchicken,I am just still really very annoyed about the auction itself.There was me thinking,hopefully it would not be like Melton,read up about Fabians and even recommended to them,it is 120 mile round trip for me-I went because I was fed up with the "Ring" which operates at Melton-and there is a ring or shill bidding,dodgy dealers with disgusting poultry to say the least.

I actually went to find some Turkeys and bulk foodstuffs,you know,carrots and the such and also,to see what it was all about.The last time I was at Melton,I went around topping up the water for all of the birds,at Fabians some did not even have a container,let alone any water!! 

I can assure you there were birds there with what appeared like Myco and definitely Worm ridden to say the least,I bought within the first 20 cages and left as I did actually find it distressing and nobody seemed to be bothered. My Turkeys from there are fine,or at least appear to be,very bright eyed and flighty with shiny coats.I just cannot understand why they would have the ill birds there as well.

I think I am lucky to have just the two out of 16 with impacted crops,more than half have scaly leg from mild to the worst and one is very thin,they are all being wormed and treated starting from when they arrived.Amazingly they are even starting to perch again!

It would be nice to stop these rogue traders and I could not agree more that this is a major concern and something which must be acted upon.

[bigchicken]

I'm up in Scotland and have attended many sales up here and in the north of England I will say that generally there are a minority of  poorer birds on sale at them all and  I have at times complaned and had birds removed from the sale  I,m in two minds  am I doing the right thing as the bird or birds in question ended up back with there owner and maybe could have been bought by someone who would give them a proper carring home. Its a dilemma that plagues me.

[mmu]

I only go to the mart for the rare breed sale as I don't like marts or sales, preferring to buy privately if possible.  The last time (and the first) I bought some sheep from the mart at Thainstone 2 out of the three dies and they all had scab which we did treat successfully.  It's a good job I always isolate any newbies when they arrive.  When at the sales I see plenty of sub standard animals go through for stupid prices and I never cease to be amazed why people pay good money for rubbish.  That's as well as pens not having any straw, scouring sheep, dribbling calves, terrified horses and screaming, trembling pigs, and lots of empty water containers. No, if I didn't have to be there I wouldn't go.  I can't stay in the poultry room because of the incredible noise and the miserable looking birds, again mostly without food or water. Add to that the noise of the auctioneer and it's bedlam.  Having said that a lot of vendors do try to make their animals as comfortable as possible and do present them cleanly and looking healthy, just not enough and the law isn't tight enough. Surely it doesn't have to be like that, with profit coming before welfare.  I think if conditions were like that on your holding and you had a visit from animal welfare, you'd be shut down

[Mel]

I only go to the mart for the rare breed sale as I don't like marts or sales, preferring to buy privately if possible.  The last time (and the first) I bought some sheep from the mart at Thainstone 2 out of the three dies and they all had scab which we did treat successfully.  It's a good job I always isolate any newbies when they arrive.  When at the sales I see plenty of sub standard animals go through for stupid prices and I never cease to be amazed why people pay good money for rubbish.  That's as well as pens not having any straw, scouring sheep, dribbling calves, terrified horses and screaming, trembling pigs, and lots of empty water containers. No, if I didn't have to be there I wouldn't go.  I can't stay in the poultry room because of the incredible noise and the miserable looking birds, again mostly without food or water. Add to that the noise of the auctioneer and it's bedlam.  Having said that a lot of vendors do try to make their animals as comfortable as possible and do present them cleanly and looking healthy, just not enough and the law isn't tight enough. Surely it doesn't have to be like that, with profit coming before welfare.  I think if conditions were like that on your holding and you had a visit from animal welfare, you'd be shut down

OMG,I honestly did not realise this occurs even with livestock! it sounds horrifying.And you are right,it is a nightmare with the noise and cramped stifling with pushing and shoving,surely there must be a way of having the laws tightened.I have to agree with you entirely,If we as smallholders kept stock like this,we would be hung out to dry!

[SallyintNorth]

I cannot speak for all marts, only the marts up here I have been to.

Primestock marts don't allow straw in pens, they'd never be able to dispose of it.  Some marts spread a little sawdust, some allow vendors to spread their own. 

The pens should have a water supply but it would only be connected and used if stock had to be penned overnight.

Breeding stock sales are different and you often do see straw for these.  Calves ditto.

Store sales are more likely to be without straw.

[robert waddell]

from an outsider looking in on the whole auction process from Guinea pigs to horses i can see the knee jerk reaction to these sales the quality of the stock and the condition of the pens
first the quality of the stock    the best examples always get a better price
                                             the worst examples  there is usually a good reason some one thinking that breeding is just the thing to do and getting over stocked and running out of money to feed them also not enough knowledge about stock keeping
                                            the cost to dispose of the waste material after the sale and the cost to deep clean the premises
the stock should only be in the market for a few hours   the onus is on the seller to provide water and feed for long journeys to the market also applies to the buyer and why the movement licence and certificate of competence is being asked for
there always has been neglect and cruelty with stock and always will be despite the intervention of well meaning individuals
any auction is a garrbeled noise with seconds to make that vital decision