[melholly]

Hi there,


Just interested in thoughts/experiences/opinions on this matter.


Bought a Choc Lab from a family situation (rural) in Feb. He was a year old. Within a few days we quickly found out that at every correction in training - even just a low voice, he would flinch.  He had issues coming to the whistle - highly suspicious of me even with treats and if calling post corrective command (ie leave!! Where rabbit poo is concerned) no chance of coming! We have a sappy 5 year old black lab male who quickly established alpha (ie all toys and pick of beds are mine) and no overly agressive behaviour between them.


We thought we would be able to get him on a 'nice' bed and out of puppy cage quite quickly but then found 'accidents' and that's where my problem starts... These accidents have ranged from pooing overnight in cage to weeing outright bold as anything in lounge. We bit the bullet, removed cage, but accidents kept happening so we put him back. He clearly knows the correct commands for this and did go outside in field at request. The next idea i had was taking his toiket training back to puppy school - ie taking out through night and then gradually extending the hours. it had an improvement on overnight accidents but didnt stop random weeing in the afternoons - always big wees too! So I put it down to change of home, diet and immaturity and got him neutered last month...


To date, he is still very timid and behaves like everything he does he's about to be shouted out, We've invested so much time, love, attention etc and just want him out of cage, enjoying his new life with us. He's a smashing little lab. BUT the accidents won't stop. This morning he was out checking lambs with me at 5am - did mega wee etc, Came to let him out of boot room (drying off area) to find another massive wee just an hour later. WHY? We remove water at 8pm, stick to a routine, feed mostly in mornings etc.


I'm at a loss to see what I'm doing wrong but clearly I'm struggling with something. Last week he spent 3 days pooing each time we went on field to check sheep - so a poo every 3 hours with a wee too. All 'normal' too if u catch my drift...!


Help?


Mx

[doganjo]

Kidney problems maybe - were his parents health checked per the Kennel Club list? Have you asked your vet for help?  Sounds more like a physical than a mental problem to me if his wees are that big and close together with restricted water consumption, although he certainly has emotional issues too.

[Maggie]

Sounds like you bought a dog with *issues* but at such a young age I don't think they're insurmountable.  Obviously you love him to bits and that's a good part of the battle.  Is it possible to have a dog flap put into the boot room?  So that he can go out when he needs to wee?  Could you change treats from being food based, to toy based  ie good old tennis ball?  Play with him for as long as you can, work permitting, then introduce a few commands, ie *heel/sit/stay* etc.  Get him retrieving as well. 
3months is not a long time, and now the better weather is here, you can hopefully spend longer periods outside with him and he'll wee outside more, and will notice that you're not getting stressed about his indoor accidents.  Good luck xxx

[HappyHippy]

We rehomed a VERY nervous German Shepherd who was 9 months old (we had the same wee/poo issues and flinching at even the slightest hint of sterness in our voices) it took around 6 months for him to finally settle and start to come round. But he ended up the best dog we've ever owned, so hang in there 
It does sound like there might be an issue physically, so a quick vet check would be a good idea.
Good luck with him,
Karen x

[colliewobbles]

I would defintely get him checked by a vet as a starting point - once all physical possibilities are dealt with or ruled out then you can work on some corrective training.  Good luck to you. 

[happygolucky]

Firstly, he could haven a medical problem re seeing......worth checking that out but he also sounds very anxious , he feels vulnerable so prefers to go toilet where he feels less vulnerable, so inside hie home........pups naturally do not soil their homes but he must have felt the need to and would be very upset by soiling his bed.


he needs his confidence building up, time consuming but worth it, you are right to take him back to baby stage, he should improve in his own time. I would not remove the crate but leave it open with newspaper around at night time, if he is in your boot room, it's not too bad, ours sleep in a boot room with open cages and although its rare, we sometimes find a poo in the morning, our youngest labs are 3,


our 3 year old Yellow Lab is also nervy, it's her traits, her mum is a bit and so is her dad, she is such a good dog she never gets shouted at or told off, yet she hates strangers coming up to stroke her etc, she likes to sniff them out in her own time, I suspect your boy is similar, do not force him , ignore him and he will become more confident, make sure he  meets lots if people.


training in anything will be great, Li would bet he will be a highly intelligent boy,.....would love to meet him......Hope I have made sense as I a m writing this without my glasses......XX

[happygolucky]

  Glasses on, just been thinking and I would bet he is just over anxiouse.   A bit like if we were in a house with big monsters, best to ignore him but keep up the commands, keep him on a lead but if he can run free somewhere let him for short periods then put him back on the lead to take him to his bed, he will feel more protected, also  you can take him on the lead for the toilet for now, hes still very young and the dominant male dog intimidates him but as long as thier is no physical aggression its OK and how it should be, he should come round in time, keep things quiet and low and not too much stress going on around him but also make sure that he meets lots of new people.......

[in the hills]

I would def. get a vet check up.


How much do you know about his former life? How much was he indoors or was he mainly a kennel dog? Was he being trained as a working gundog? This could mean that he hasn't had much in the way of house training.


Is he a "working" line lab? You have a lab . so may already know that some working line labs. can be very sensitive to correction. My father used to train gundogs and one of the biggest problems he would have is when people had "had a go" at training their dogs but been too harsh or corrected in a way that confused the dog. They can quickly become worried, anxious, nervy and then unresponsive. Could be that his former owners made a few mistakes in this way. Some people push working dogs too soon and they dry up. This can be corrected. Be kind and consistent and yes I too would go "back to little puppy" basics with everything ..... his house and general training. Loads of verbal and physical praise, all in a gentle reassuring way. A lot of working labs are very eager to please and as he gains confidence and trusts you more, you may find that he is a dog that doesn't even need a stern voice used. My father wouldn't touch a dog regarding training until 7 months of age so your lad, who you obviously love, has plenty of time to become a cracking dog. He is still a baby.


   Good luck with him.

[happygolucky]

In the Hills, our Yellow Lab is the most nervy and an excellant gun dog, her dad demonstrates gun dog skills and is just the same, we never ever shout at any of our 3 dogs but our Chocolate Lab, also a gun dog but with more show dog in her bread, is rock solid, nerves of steel etc, she brought me back a huge black bag of Deer bits  yesterday!!!
He could have also been effected by his surgery....thats just his weeing, but he will know its wrong so it will make him more anxiouse, I agree with In the Hills, time and patience and he will be wondeful!!

[in the hills]

Bless her, Happygolucky. Just generalizing really and many are confident and some do need a firm hand but I suppose that it is like any breed that is bred for a specific purpose. Some have been bred for generations with work as their main purpose. You breed for a biddable, easily trained dog with traits desirable for his purpose but with that can come a little too much sensitivity and a dog that "worries". You need to adjust your handling to the individual dog but it's not always easy ..... a fine line when it comes to correction.


Can only speak about working line labs.... no experience with pet/show types.

[happygolucky]

I ment to add, the stud dog, thats the father to our Yellow Lab, shows skills at shows, and his owner is a renounded gun dog trainer, he loves our Yellow Lab and says it shows his dogs traits of being nervy but very very keen to please.....the nicest thing was when my grandchildren were over, the Yellow dog barked at them but they knew just what to do, she sniffed them and by the end of the day they were all curled up together on the floor!!!  It can be a worry though. My chocolate Lab never fails to amuse me, she watches my every move and nearly always finds something while out dog walking, I just hope the best of the forest has eaten all that deer by now.......last week it was a washing up sponge!!!
Would love to see a photo of your chocolate Lab before I go all slushy about working Labs!!!!

[smithycraft]

Personally, I would use clicker training.  It sounds like he could do with lots of positive reinforcement (praise for when he does something you want, no matter how small) and less or no correction when he makes mistakes.

You would need to get him tuned into the clicker first of all (click, treat, click, treat etc. until he understands that if he hears a click, something nice will follow).  I assume that being a lab he is food oriented but you need to use "high value" treats - something he really loves and very small pieces so that he can eat it quickly and move on (you also don't want him putting on weight so you may want to cut down on his food while you're training).

To get him toilet trained I would take him outside, don't say anything just watch, as soon as he starts to go, click immediately and treat when appropriate ie: when he's finished.  He's heard the click so he knows the treat will come.  Timing is important you need to click the instant he starts doing what you want.  And always lots of praise.

If he does something you don't like, don't correct him (eating rabbit poo), get him to do something else, chase a ball for instance.

You can clicker train anything using the same principles, including the whistle.

I always use clicker training with my dogs and have seen it turn problem dogs around in a very short space of time but you do need to be consistent.

It can take a very long time for a dog to adjust to a new home.  One of our rescue GSD's took a whole year before he finally felt relaxed enough to get up on the sofa with the other dogs.

[happygolucky]

DOgs usualy very quickly get the knack of clicker training, I just forget to have mine with me all the time since the catch fell off!!
 

[doganjo]

In order to 'charge' the  clicker, you scatter a few tiny prices of treat on the floor and as he rushes to eat them, click like crazy.  He will then get teh idea in his head that a click means a treat.  It's pretty easy after that.

But before you do all that get him checked out to make sure he doesn't have an underlying medical condition that means he hasn't got control of his functions.

I asked before if his parents had had all theri health checks done.  That might be a good starting point - ask his breeder what was done or check their names on the KC Mate select website.

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx

I doubt if nervousness is your problem. Very few labs are born nervous.  Some can be made wary if their early life is fraught or training is too severe.  They may have been yelled at as a baby puppies when messing in the nest.   Some people don't realise what they are doing.

[happygolucky]

Doganjo, I do not agree, like some people are nervy so are some dogs, highly strug high energy dogs are born that way.  Rohan is highly strung and no had anything happened to her, she had and still has a nice calm life......I can compare her to other people who also have highly strung dogs and quiet houses and then the reverse!!!
I do agree on the clicker training though....I am in contact with most of the pups we had in the same litter, some are like Rohan some are more laid back, our black lab is also nervy, she hates any one to shout but then again, we never have to shout at her!!