[Sbom]

Mine lamb outside and are checked at first light, last thing and a time or two in between. I don’t generally start early checks til the first lamb appears. I’ve come to th3 conclusion that Romney’s have a shorter gestation as they always start 4/5 days before official due date.
I check twice a day from about 7 days before official due date, because they are outside I usually walk through them when checking as I like them to be used to me so I can walk through without disturbing them. You get a much better look at them if they don’t move as you walk amongst them so it’s easier to spot one that’s not right.

[shep53]

I personally have no problem with what ever system is used ( many commercial flocks dose every lamb at birth with SPECTAM  or inject with PENACILLIN ) not for me  ,but works for some .    In the 70's/ 80's suffolks did not have big heads or legs or  bloody big droopy ears ,but every lamb was valuable so automatic feeding of cow colostrum was the norm ( no powdered then ) and eventually they were very difficult to persuade that sucking  mum was a good idea

[SallyintNorth]

  All lambs on our farm get powdered colostrum within 20 minutes of birth

  You say many times that you cull for anything  and yet the above statement says to me that you are masking a vital trait , how fast a lamb stands and suckles . 

There's just so much potentially masked here.

- a ewe that doesn't get up and lick the lamb fast enough, doesn't produce her milk soon enough, doesn't encourage the lamb to suckle well enough, doesn't have enough antibodies in her colostrum, doesn't produce enough colostrum for her lambs, doesn't manage the colostrum so that all her lambs get some - to me, all vital maternal traits

- a mating that produces soppy lambs that don't get up and get their colostrum quickly - maternal and paternal factors here, physical (lamb has difficult birthing / lamb has too large muscles, mother has too narrow a canal, lamb doesn't position itself well, mother doesn't push / try hard enough - so many potential factors, which again, to me would have me analysing the lambing data to see where the problem lies

So whilst I completely get that in a commercial operation, a swift top-up of a product that's been proven to work in that system makes good financial sense, it does not, to me, mean that you can hand on heart say you are producing good breeding stock for other systems.  Maybe that's true of us all in different ways , but it was and still is a shock to hear this from Marches Farmer.

[Womble]

I can see why you might not want to milk a new mother for colostrum, when you want to leave her alone to bond with her baby.  We hit on quite a good solution this year though. For lambs that weren't up and sucking immediately (and if we wanted to go to bed!), we milked another ewe who had also given birth that day and had good colostrum. The colostrum from ewe A was then tubed into ewe B's lamb. Ewe B's colostrum was then taken a bit later, and tubed into ewe C's lamb. We also managed to get quite a bit into the freezer for next year.

This worked really well, and also means that each lamb gets a mixture of antibodies from two different ewes (I take it they probably carry different antibodies, depending on what they've been exposed to?).

Another thing I noticed - some colostrum is quite runny, whereas other stuff is almost as thick as condensed milk. The thick stuff was really difficult to tube, since it just wouldn't run. In the end, I mixed it with some powdered colostrum, just to get it to flow!

[twizzel]

We are going to test colostrum quality next year with a brix refractometer. I think if the ewe has licked the lamb dry and is talking to it then you’re normally safe to milk colostrum off without interfering with bonding, unless she’s exceptionally wild... I’ve got 1 that will climb the walls if you enter her hurdle pen, but apart from that the rest of mine have all been happy to handle after lambing- I’ll always remove the plug from the teat once a ewe has lambed anyway and check she’s got milk on both sides.

[Marches Farmer]

Why not try it yourself next year and see what results you get?

[SallyintNorth]

The only times I would give colostrum are:

• triplets; I usually make up one or two doses and top them up after they've all had a chance to get some from mum, on the basis I don't want to risk that she didn't have sufficient for all three - if it's obvious that numbers one and two had all the colostrum before three was up and seeking then I'll give that one a full dose
• inexperienced mother with twins is empty before number two is up and seeking
• lamb has got cold and / or hasn't suckled and it's getting near to two hours since it was born
• lamb doesn't have a nice round tummy and mum appears to have no more to give and it's getting near to two hours since it was born
• new mother not letting lamb suckle, in which case I would first of all try to get the lamb on her teat, if not then milk her if I possibly can
• abandoned lamb, sick ewe, other circs in which colostrum from own mother in the normal way isn't going to happen
• it's time I went to bed and there's a newborn lamb and any doubt at all it will get colostrum from its own mum in time - which with my experienced ewes is generally not a concern as I know they all do a good job without my help - and that's the point

And yes, milking mum preferable to powdered, or milk from another recently lambed ewe if she has some to spare (I harvest some if I get a mum with a single and a good bag, or one of those ewes with a humungous engorged teat you have to milk some off before the lamb can get on the teat - although, whilst the colostrum is useful, that's a mark on her card as I don't want to be breeding from ewes where I have to intervene.)

If I have a lamb hasn't had any colostrum from any sheep (and I don't have any from my sheep), then I give it one drink of powdered and one of colostrum  from my Jersey if I have it - on the basis she's from the same farm so will have some of the local antibodies.

But the point is, I want to know if any of my ewes can't feed their lambs adequately without any intervention from me - and in general, not breed from any that need any intervention.  A bit of helping them settle the very first time is allowable  - although I have one shearling who needed that this time, and her mother did too the first time, so if I keep a daughter from her I will be watching closely and probably end that branch of that line if the daughter is the same.  Not all first-timers need a bit of settling, so again, if I think it's genetic, that's genetics I don't want in my breeding ewes.  I lamb outdoors, and I don't go into the field in the dark, so I need to know that my ewes can do their job without my attendance. 

I did wonder to myself this year whether I ought also to check with anyone from whom I get a tup that they also lamb outdoors - and now I am sure I shbould!

[pharnorth]

Interestingly vigorous debate- maybe a bit too focused and biased on one topic for our first time lamber though!  It perversely reminds me off first time motherhood. Antenatal classes were so busy describing various horrific scenarios/ value of water baths and bean bags no one ever mentioned the obvious - to feed the baby when it arrived. One easy birth later it took me 12 hours to think about feeling the poor baby. So much for mothering instinct. His immune system seemed to survive the experience though. 

[Womble]

Well, I probably wouldn't breed from you again. Think yourself lucky though - MF would have you culled! 


You're right though - apologies are due to the OP. We have somewhat hijacked this thread, haven't we!?

[pharnorth]

For the avoidance of doubt as far as I know I have never even met Womble let alone been part of his dubious breeding programme. If Mrs Womble is reading this she has no need to worry. Anyway I am in the 'old pet should have been culled years ago' category.

Let's hope OP has a straightforward and enjoyable lambing.