The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: kate7590 on September 12, 2015, 08:59:48 pm

Title: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: kate7590 on September 12, 2015, 08:59:48 pm
We have chatted about this a lot recently, and do like the idea of giving it a whirl. However, Iv just worked out the costs tonight and there really isn't a lot in it, is there??

Weaner cost- £50
Cost to feed for 6 1/2 months- £130
Abattoir cost £40 (not including bacon/sausage)

Total- £220
And a whole pig is worth £250 to buy?

Thats not including buying a pig ark, fencing, gates etc

Is it really worth all that work for 6 months, feeding, watering, bedding etc to save £30?  :/

Feeling a bit disappointed now :/
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: fsmnutter on September 12, 2015, 09:21:38 pm
You're right, there's not a lot of money in it.
But is raising pigs that you enjoy having the company of and watching play for six months or so, and knowing where your meat has come from and what has gone into it not worth it?
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: knight_family on September 12, 2015, 11:54:34 pm
I would agree to fsmnutter, its come down not cost saving but getting great quality meet and knowing that yout pigs have had a good life.

Mine go for a run in the evening at a meal / snooze, for that alone its worth doing.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: harmony on September 13, 2015, 07:54:11 am
If you are raising pigs for your own freezer the two posts above sum up nicely why people do it. If you are finishing pigs to sell on the margins are tight if there is any margin at all unless you do your maths properly but more importantly charge properly. The difficulty is that so many people under sell their product that you can't get a good price for yours.


It is the same with weaners. Most people are selling at a loss. The argument about what people are willing to pay so therefore that is the value of the market is valid but actually I would say too many pig breeders are just not realistic about their costs.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: sabrina on September 13, 2015, 10:43:13 am
Better to raise just for yourself. Well worth the work for taste alone.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: sausagesandcash on September 13, 2015, 11:28:21 am
Anything agricultural is only 'profitable' on a large scale.
The only 'profit' from small scale farming is satisfaction! Do it for the taste, if for no other reason. It is well worthwhile if you are doing it for you and yours.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: Caroline1 on September 13, 2015, 12:01:53 pm
Yeah I got similar coatings but the taste and joy of having pigs makes it completely worth it ( in my opinion)  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: Porterlauren on September 13, 2015, 12:18:32 pm
Pigs. . . . . . only worth really having 2 or 2000.

That pretty much sums it up.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: kate7590 on September 13, 2015, 01:48:42 pm
Thank-you everyone :)
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: hughesy on September 13, 2015, 03:00:38 pm
Absolutely everyone will tell you there's no money to be made rearing pigs. However there are a good number of businesses doing just that. It's like any other business activity, if you're good at it and you know what you're doing you can make money. If you're not, and you don't, you'll lose.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: Paulie on September 13, 2015, 03:14:10 pm
I've lost a fair bit on my first pigs but I'm still doing it again next year  :yum:
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: Victorian Farmer on September 13, 2015, 05:57:27 pm
I think that if you are organised you can rip the price out of stock. Firstly keep eye on the sales.. This is in  1 month firstly sale ewe lambs 12,month old thainstone £20 to 40pound take 3 or 4 drop of 2 to the abatware. Then  over to dingwall 8 pigs all £50and 1a tenner take it. Monday abatware  whot  a steal no work. 3 weeks later bull caws, £180 again abatware. No feed work etc just sell half  for fuel and cost. ONE DAYS SALE IS BETTER THAN 8 MONTHS VET AND WORK.  I am convinced this is the way forward for smallholders. I go  to  a lot of sales and things are bad. This way you will live but you won't starve.? 
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: benkt on September 13, 2015, 08:30:51 pm
I reckon on turning a 'profit' (not including my time!) of about £50 a pig so your calculation sounds about right to me.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: Porterlauren on September 13, 2015, 09:01:40 pm
Plenty of people making plenty of money dealing stock!
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: Marches Farmer on September 13, 2015, 09:12:19 pm
Take a look at the bigger picture and spare a thought for rare breeds. They were developed over centuries and have attributes that include docility, long productive life, excellent conformation, easy farrowing and good mothering.  Commercial pigs are put to the boar at around 8 months, the piglets are weaned at three weeks and go to slaughter at around 17 weeks and routinely have teeth and tails clipped to prevent them damaging each other.  The average sow has 2.8 litters before going to slaughter.  Our set up is probably fairly typical for native breeds - our gilts go to the boar at around one year old, piglets are weaned at 8 weeks and go to slaughter at around 24 weeks.  None have teeth or tails clipped and the sows average 11 litters.  Selling excess weaners to folks wanting to raise exceptionally good meat contributes to making it possible for us to keep breeding native breeds for posterity.  With the way things are going in the world the robustness and other attributes of native breeds may become immensely important in the future.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: Porterlauren on September 13, 2015, 09:18:40 pm
Without wanting to upset you. . . . i'm not sure how many honest people would describe traditional breed pigs as having 'excellent conformation'.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: HappyHippy on September 14, 2015, 12:00:11 am
Without wanting to upset you. . . . i'm not sure how many honest people would describe traditional breed pigs as having 'excellent conformation'.
True, traditional breeds don't have the number of teats and double muscling on the carcass that the commercials have - but the commercials wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the genetics of the traditional breeds.... I have seen traditional breeds with excellent confirmation and I've seen hybrids that look bloody awful (and vice versa obviously  :))

I think if you want to make money from pigs (serious amounts of it, rather than a little excess every few months) the only way to go is big scale with indoor commercial breeds. Doing this gives you a consistent carcass, faster growth rates and a more of a market for selling/supplying than you're going to easily find for traditional breeds which just wouldn't do as well with that kind of set up.
If you want to keep a few nice pigs in their natural environment and in a high health/high welfare setting then pedigree traditional breeds are the way to go. Ideally suited to outdoor living these are breeds that have been around for hundreds of years and have consistent traits and the breeding records to prove it (as opposed to having been engineered from multiple breeds to give a fast growing, prolific dam and fast growing lean pigs) You might not make your fortune from them, but they should pay for themselves reasonably quickly and with a little creative thinking and good marketing, you'll make a small profit (eventually!) but more than that, you're preserving a little piece of history and keeping bloodlines going - this IMHO is worth way more than the bottom line.
But it's horses for courses and everyone has their own reasons and motivation for keeping pigs. For me, it's just because I like having them around  ;)  :innocent:
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: hughesy on September 14, 2015, 07:55:26 am
There seems to be an assumption that the big boys in the pig industry are making all the money. In reality the price a commercial producer gets for his pigs is less than the cost of production and has been for some time. Pigs are traded as a commodity and prices are set well in advance with contracts in place. The UK is swamped with European pork imported as cheap as chips. It's the processors and the retailers that make the profits, not the farmers.
For the small producer of a quality product it's all about selling into the right marketplace. You are in control of what you produce, when you produce it and the price you charge for it. There would be a lot of big pork producers who'd give their right arm for that.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: greenbeast on September 14, 2015, 09:12:39 am
We've just started a small free range pig farm this year. Only looking to max out a 140 population. We are certainly hoping to make some money (it needs to support me!)

At this scale you have to take pigs from conception to customer really. breeding keeps weaner costs down and being about to market the produce to end customers means you are not at the mercy of the market.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: Buffy the eggs layer on September 14, 2015, 09:54:37 am
For me the the business case for rearing your own meat on a modest scale is if you can put flavoursom, slow matured, high welfare meat in the freezer ( or in a friends freezer) for less than it costs to buy mass produced, tasteless, low welfare meat from the supermarket or butcher then it stacks up.


Making it viable though does require resourcefulness and creativity both in marketing and cost efficiency without compromising welfare. If you have to pay through the nose for everything and dont intend to keep enough stock to justify the initial set up costs then its not a good idea.


Having said all that however, wheather you are keeping 2 or 2000 of any animal, you owe it to yourself and them to choose an animal that you respect and admire as there are are times when care and compassion will need to out weigh costs and budget calculations.



Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: clydesdaleclopper on September 14, 2015, 11:01:12 am
You need to think about which breeds you are going to use and how you are going to keep them. I'm not an experienced pig keeper as we are only on our second lot of pigs but there has been a huge difference in costs for feed for the two lots. the first were 3 Berkshires and they had about 1/4 acre of grazing. They consumed a LOT of bought in feed and that put me off keeping pigs again and we didn't for years. We now have 3 Kune Kunes in 1 1/2 acres. They are getting very little bought in feed and are only getting a small quantity of bruised barley and spare milk from the goats. They are so much cheaper to feed.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: greenbeast on September 14, 2015, 11:06:07 am
how did they consume more? were you not measuring it out?
1lb/day/month of age
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: harmony on September 14, 2015, 11:29:13 am
The difficulty for small pork producers and pig breeders most smallholders are just not realistic about their costs and sell their weaners and products below the cost of production. Those who seem happy to subsidise their customers make it difficult for those who have done their homework to sell realistically as they are always being undercut.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: hughesy on September 14, 2015, 11:34:17 am
You need to think about which breeds you are going to use and how you are going to keep them. I'm not an experienced pig keeper as we are only on our second lot of pigs but there has been a huge difference in costs for feed for the two lots. the first were 3 Berkshires and they had about 1/4 acre of grazing. They consumed a LOT of bought in feed and that put me off keeping pigs again and we didn't for years. We now have 3 Kune Kunes in 1 1/2 acres. They are getting very little bought in feed and are only getting a small quantity of bruised barley and spare milk from the goats. They are so much cheaper to feed.
But they take twice as long to finish. Plus they become sexually mature long before they hit a reasonable slaughter weight so other things need to be considered such as castration of the boars etc. tbh I've never heard of anyone having a serious pork business that uses KK's. Most of our native breeds however can be used successfully. Atributes required are things like the ability to rear a decent sized litter, hardiness so you don't have the vet round every five minutes, and growth rate v. food consumption. You will soon develop the art of feeding a pig right to get a decent carcass. There's a lot to learn but none of it is rocket science.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: hughesy on September 14, 2015, 11:39:22 am
The difficulty for small pork producers and pig breeders most smallholders are just not realistic about their costs and sell their weaners and products below the cost of production. Those who seem happy to subsidise their customers make it difficult for those who have done their homework to sell realistically as they are always being undercut.
That is a very valid point. I was told by a customer of ours a few weeks ago that a neighbour of his had offered him a half pig for 60 quid. I explained the economics to him and he is still a customer of ours, preferring to support a local business than just get something cheap. We don't charge ridiculous prices like you see on some places but we're a fair bit more expensive than the supermarkets. Most of our customers appreciate that they're buying a genuine local product that has been brought to them with care and is superior in every way to the mass produced stuff.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: clydesdaleclopper on September 14, 2015, 12:13:16 pm
how did they consume more? were you not measuring it out?
1lb/day/month of age


Because KKs do not need as much hard feed
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: greenbeast on September 14, 2015, 12:27:51 pm
The difficulty for small pork producers and pig breeders most smallholders are just not realistic about their costs and sell their weaners and products below the cost of production. Those who seem happy to subsidise their customers make it difficult for those who have done their homework to sell realistically as they are always being undercut.
That is a very valid point. I was told by a customer of ours a few weeks ago that a neighbour of his had offered him a half pig for 60 quid. I explained the economics to him and he is still a customer of ours, preferring to support a local business than just get something cheap. We don't charge ridiculous prices like you see on some places but we're a fair bit more expensive than the supermarkets. Most of our customers appreciate that they're buying a genuine local product that has been brought to them with care and is superior in every way to the mass produced stuff.

Indeed, unless doing it for yourself and friends only, you need to separate yourself from the supermarket rubbish.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: greenbeast on September 14, 2015, 12:29:42 pm
how did they consume more? were you not measuring it out?
1lb/day/month of age


Because KKs do not need as much hard feed

Fair enough, i guess you just 'pay' in other ways, the lower kill out weight and longer wait to slaughter
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: fsmnutter on September 14, 2015, 01:01:47 pm
The kill out weight is not necessarily that much lower, we had dead weights of 61 and 69 kg from 13 month old kunes last time, who get up to 1kg hard feed daily, and often less when plenty grass and goats milk around. The bones are also lighter so percentage of meat to live weight is considerably better than other breeds.
Rosemary and Dan compared traditional to lines in terms of weight, feed, costs etc on this site which would be worth your while reading. Kune kunes are most definitely financially viable as a meat pig.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: Marches Farmer on September 14, 2015, 02:44:43 pm
I think one of the problems in keeping KK's for meat,especially if new to pig-keeping, is the difficulty in getting the feeding right.  Kune Kune does mean "fat and round" in Maori so they've been selectively bred for just that.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: Porterlauren on September 14, 2015, 02:50:54 pm
HH - We keep cross breeds in a natural setting, high health / high welfare etc etc. And they do very well indeed. They also are genetically pre-dispositioned to have great carcass conformation. Whilst traditional breeds may have a great conformation 'for a traditional breed' there is no way they can compete with the pie-train x etc etc.

We use saddle back x pie train and find we get the best of both worlds. They really are very hard to beat!
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: hughesy on September 14, 2015, 03:06:04 pm
I find that the average consumer isn't very bothered about breeds. They are interested in locally produced, well cared for, free range pork that they can buy direct from the farmer and therefore be safe in the knowledge that they're getting what they want and knowing where it's come from.
Regarding the KK question we've got a couple of KK crosses here so I have a bit of experience of them. There's no way they can be compared to something like a Saddleback or similar in terms of performance. Yes they eat a bit less but they take way too long to grow for them to be viable in a business situation. Ours do produce a lean, if slightly odd shaped carcass and the meat itself is super but they're just not quick enough to finish. We are a 52 weeks a year business and need to have a constant supply of porkers ready for slaughter and the poor old KK just doesn't fit in to our production system. Having tried quite a few of our native breeds we find the British Saddleback fits the bill pretty well. There's absolutely nothing wrong with crossbred pigs either as long as you don't get mixed up in showing or trying to sell pedigree stock.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: clydesdaleclopper on September 14, 2015, 04:28:57 pm
I wasn't suggesting that KKs were the answer just giving it as an example that breed and management could make a big difference to costs.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: greenbeast on September 14, 2015, 04:47:28 pm
We've got all traditional breeds, some pure, some crosses of. We looked at doing pedigree herd but just didn't seem worth it unless we were selling pedigree breeding stock.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: hughesy on September 14, 2015, 08:03:16 pm
We've got all traditional breeds, some pure, some crosses of. We looked at doing pedigree herd but just didn't seem worth it unless we were selling pedigree breeding stock.
That is very true. We're BPA members and our Saddlebacks are registered but it is of no benefit to us as a business. We don't sell weaners or breeding stock and we don't show our pigs so I suppose the only benefit would be hopefully protection via the breeds at risk register in the event of a nasty disease outbreak and the fact that we can call what we produce pedigree pork. As I said before though our customers don'treally care about that.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: SallyintNorth on September 15, 2015, 03:00:40 pm
Kune Kune does mean "fat and round" in Maori so they've been selectively bred for just that.

Actually, I think 'Kune' means 'fat and round'.  'Kune Kune' means very fat and very round  :-J
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: Marches Farmer on September 15, 2015, 03:15:53 pm
That is very true. We're BPA members and our Saddlebacks are registered but it is of no benefit to us as a business. We don't sell weaners or breeding stock and we don't show our pigs so I suppose the only benefit would be hopefully protection via the breeds at risk register in the event of a nasty disease outbreak and the fact that we can call what we produce pedigree pork. As I said before though our customers don'treally care about that.
We don't show either but at the moment are involved in conserving the rarest of the GOS female bloodlines and are most definitely on the Breeds At Risk Register.  Fortunately there are a number of folks out there who get what we're about and purchase breeding stock from us, not least because the line is an all round top notch pig.  We still need to sell weaners that aren't quite up to the mark to cover our costs.  Yes, you could get crossbreed weaners cheaper at the market but would you know if they were from a high health, closed herd, well handled and had been correctly fed and 100% healthy all their lives....?
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: Victorian Farmer on September 15, 2015, 08:45:49 pm
Well pigs have gone 2  103 kGS cost for this £300 food on top. I could get half a pig for £80 from the same place. Definitely not worth the effort. I did like the 2 pigs but be realistic. So sheep pigs chickens no prophet whot next. Im turning a caw into mice see if that has prophet.
Title: Re: Is there really any money in raising wearers??
Post by: farmers wife on October 19, 2015, 11:22:46 pm
You have an excellent point and I would say many farmers dont do the figures and no wonder this country is in such a mess. Your figures are spot on.


We are raising organic pigs so half a pig will be £190.  Plenty of people have money and will pay for excellent meat.  There are a lot of switched on people out there who are happy to support us and eat very well.  There is endless talk of people who say they cant afford to eat yet this is a small minority and plenty of consumers who happily spend £300 plus per week on food.  We aim at the higher market because we are passionate about welfare, environment and feed.


Never base your sale price on what yr competitors are selling at as for all you know that havent a clue.  I dont care what cheap price John is selling at that is a mistake. My price is based on overheads plus profit. £80 for half a pig is ludicrous how do they make up these silly figures?


The problems of raising pigs is the modern system - if you dont have an orchard, nut trees, whey, waste etc then you have to feed them out of a bag everyday. The idea of a pig was to feed them waste and eat the fallen fruits.  Now pigs are raised on barren land.   When you see all these pork products in the shops you have to wonder how these were raised and what in Gods name were they fed????


Probably go back to raising two after christmas - keeping our freezer full and the family eating the best food is of prime importance.