The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Jon Feather on September 09, 2015, 02:49:40 pm
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We havent got a tup yet but got our eye on one.
We now have 2 pedigree shetland ewes and their 4 ewe lambs from this year (plus 2 wether lambs).
We plan to split the field to keep the tup from the ewe lambs.
But when do we put a tup with the older ewes??? We don't want to miss the boat. so to speak.
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147 days before you want them to lamb :). Or rather 147 + up to 17 days (or more), depending on when they are in their cycle.
Look at a gestation calendar to help you work out dates: http://www.raisingsheep.net/sheep-gestation-calculator-and-table.html (http://www.raisingsheep.net/sheep-gestation-calculator-and-table.html)
If they are shetland then I would guess that they won't start cycling until October? Other folks here will know more on that.
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142-152 IME 145 twins 147 single mean average
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Depending where you are in the country (North or South) and how you are going to lamb (outside vs indoors)....
Since lambing my Shetlands outdoors again (Scottish Borders about 120m above sea level), I have aimed for mid-April onwards, so tup goes in 3rd week in November. I have also in the last two years sponged my ewes, but this may require a three field set-up for you (lambs in one, tup in one and ewes in a third field next to tup while sponges in, the ewes together with tup 2 days after sponges come out). Sponges just make life a lot easier for the small flock shepherd... you know when they are about to lamb and won't have three weeks or more of really early starts...
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We put rocky in with the ladies late last year nearly end of November as we needed to avoid April lambing due to family issues, we then just let nature do its thing and got lambs born 3 may, 6 may x2, 9th may and 20th may...
This year we are putting 10 to the tup and aiming for earlier lambs so rocky goes in Nov 5th for 1st April lambing, we'll still trust nature for the rest and leave rocky in for 6 weeks...
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It does help to know the dates if you put a raddle on the tup. Its not fool proof but it worked fairly well for us
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The 'natural' time for the Shetland tup to go in is Nov 5th, start lambing April fools day-ish. Being mature ewes I can't see you having a problem with conception, and to me, unless you are working away or have some other problem, sponging a primitive sheep is unnecessary. It just complicates matters, when the sheep are perfectly able to get on with reproduction without our interference.
Ours usually lamb within about 2 weeks of each other, in mid April - just in time for the new grass to make them good and milky. We leave our tups in for 4 weeks, and we set aside 4 weeks in April for lambing. We used to leave them in for 6 weeks but occasionally there was one very late lamb, into May. I would rather not have that, and prefer to have that ewe without a lamb.
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I leave my tups in with the ladies until the lambs arrive and sometimes later - I've found with the hebs at least that it causes them to flock in the winter around the ram, and as my rams are gluttonous well fed things they will lead the lot into a pen or another field as needed.
You will always get the odd late one this way, especially if your tupping ewe lambs - as some decide to cycle in January and you get a june lamb, but that doesnt bother me too much as Hebrideans idea of lambing difficulty is escaping the night before so they lamb on the road verge.
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We also do Bonfire Night for April Fools' Day. But depending on your breed (our Cheviots will tup earlier than that, but our Kerrys won't!) and when you want to lamb, any time between now and january should do the trick!
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We also do Bonfire Night for April Fools' Day.
Who says sheep don't have a sense of humour ;D
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We run the tup in the field next to the ewes for a few days before he goes in (Southdowns can't jump fences, although last year one of the Badger Face ewes did and we had a surprise lamb two weeks early as she'd jumped back into her own field afterwards). The tup is left in for 19 days - rarely had a barrener.
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Cheers everyone. I thought I was about to miss the boat.
On a related topic; am I right in thinking that it's best not to tup the ewe lambs?
I was told that they will be too young. Also that if left for another 12 months they will probably have a single followed by twins most other years, were as, if they are tupped in their first year they are likely to have a single followed by other singles every year.????????
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If these are Shetlands I would not breed from them as lambs they are quite slow-growing and will put a lot of size on next spring, which would also coincide with lambing.
As to having twins vs singles - that's why commercial farmers "flush" their ewes just before tupping - a ewe in good condition is more likely to have twins. But I have found for Shetlands it was not necessary, as long as they had good grass at the end of summer (I also do not take the lambs off, except for entire boy lambs) they would normally have twins. It's triplets that are the real nuisance.... so you don't want them in too good a condition either...
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I bought Shetland ewes in November last year who'd been tupped as ewe lambs and lambed singles in 2014, all had twins this year for me, and I tupped all the ewe lambs I bought at the same time too and all had lovely singles with only one going an extra week after the others, and I expect them to have twins this year. Depends on personal prefferance I suppose though.
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One of the biggest problems with tupping ewe lambs is if they have twins. Hoggs, IMO, should not be asked to rear twins, so then you have a spare lamb. But the effort of having carried and produced twins wears her out too much and may wreck her for her future career.
This is the exact same reasoning given by some farmers for tupping hoggs. If you leave her untupped she'll almost certainly have two as a shearling, and as that's her first time, not bond with them both, and/or not have enough milk for them both. So getting her to lamb as a hogg readies her better for lambing twins as a shearling, is the thinking.
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As to having twins vs singles - that's why commercial farmers "flush" their ewes just before tupping
We are commercial farmers and we do not flush, we actively avoid flushing. We prefer good strong singles that require no intervention and are away early when prices are high, leaving mum plenty of time to recover for next year.
My observation is a lot of smallholders flushing away like billy-o, while we, with a commercial flock, actively avoid it! :D
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Here we lightly flush the flock age ewes, and hope for the vast majority to produce twins. Obviously we also get some singles and some triplets. Ewes are left to rear whatever they produce, with lambs lifted off triplets if they appear to be actively struggling. The only change to this is if I happen to be lucky enough to pass a set of triplets being born near a single, and i'll try to graft one on the single bearing ewe. Same if one losses her single, I try to find something to graft on to her. Hate having ewe doing nothing in spring.
We do not flush ewe lambs at all, as this gives a better chance of getting singles, this year every hogg dropped a nice single, which was ideal. As said, twins can be a pain for a ewe lamb.
I personally think they make a better ewe for lambing as a lamb, and are easier to deal with as hoggs, than maiden shearlings.
If every ewe here could have a single first time and twins every year after until se was about 8. . . . . i'd be a happy farmer!
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As to having twins vs singles - that's why commercial farmers "flush" their ewes just before tupping
We are commercial farmers and we do not flush, we actively avoid flushing. We prefer good strong singles that require no intervention and are away early when prices are high, leaving mum plenty of time to recover for next year.
My observation is a lot of smallholders flushing away like billy-o, while we, with a commercial flock, actively avoid it! :D
We never flush our ewes Sally, smallholders though we are :farmer:. As in everything, I prefer the animals to exhibit their natural behaviour. If a ewe is fit to have twins, then she'll have them, but if it's a single that's fine by me.
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But surely by flushing you are selecting her grazing and thus influencing what is a natural factor of sheep (and animal) reproduction? That's all I do, make sure the flock aged ewes go onto some good grass before the tup goes in, and during tupping.
Or are people 'flushing' ewes by feeding them concentrates?
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I aim to keep the ewes in good condition all year as I never know what the Winter will bring. I find variations in grazing quality through the seasons will keep the ewes from getting too fat. I don't breed from tegs - I've found in the past that they're more likely to need to go in an adopter for a day or two and some don't have as much milk as those tupped in their second year - either you have to bottle feed or risk twins that struggle and possibly cause teat damage because they're hungry. I think the ewe should do the work and have a long productive life and this has worked for us so far. Around here they say better a good single than scrappy doubles.
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So it sounds like there is no problem putting th etup to the ewe lambs this November.
And, if I have read this right, it wont have any influence on whether a ewe has singles or twins in subsequent years: have I got that right?
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What about tup lambs?
I've been offered a tup lamb (Shetland) to run with my gimmers (x10 Shetland). I appreciate that his fertility will be unknown, as will my ladies', but are there other issues? Should I run them together for longer, or hedge my bets and run 2 tup lambs?
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If the tup lamb is well grown, at least 6 months old and at least 60% of his final size / weight, in good condition, he should have no trouble at all with 10 ladies. Althouuughhh... It's generally advised to give a lamb no more than 15 ladies, ideally with most of them being experienced, while he learns his job. If all his ladies are gimmers, so neither they nor he know what they are doing yet :-J, it might be wise to allow 2 cycles ;)
Last year, Chad, my Shetland then aged 6 months, tupped my 15 girls (of which 6 were first timers) no problem, even Rosie Mule who dwarfed him (but was very experienced ;))
And we've used tup lambs on the commercial flock several times, never had a problem.
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Surprised thats its okay to let a tup lamb "on the job" so young. You learn something new every day.
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My rocky was 6 months old and nailed 5/5 4 experienced ladies first week the gimmer took 2 cycles.
All 5 had twins...
This year he gets 10 then he's being rehomed as I'm keeping all his daughters in the flock.
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One way of going about finding a tup, if you don't need a pedigree, is to buy in a lamb at weaning, wait til he's done the biz, then send him off for meat. That way you don't have to worry about inbreeding, and you won't be spending hundreds on your tup. For a pedigree tup, you can buy a reasonably priced Shetland (in fact they're positively cheap), use him for two years, which will avoid his daughters, then eat him.
We've never had a problem with the fertility of tup lambs, although as others have said, they can take a while to persuade the ewes to take them seriously :love: We would leave a tup lamb in for 6 weeks, whereas older tups get 4 weeks.
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I wouldn't run 2 tups together, they can spend far too much time scrapping and not enough concentrating on the ladies. 3, yes, then whilst 2 are scrapping, one can nip off and pay attention to the job in hand, but not 2.
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I wouldn't run 2 tups together, they can spend far too much time scrapping and not enough concentrating on the ladies. 3, yes, then whilst 2 are scrapping, one can nip off and pay attention to the job in hand, but not 2.
Yes, one tup for first cycle is best. You can combine groups after that if you want.
Last year we had two tups in together. One got lame in a hind leg, couldn't mount. But could still fight and wouldn't let the other near any of the ladies. ::)
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1 tup first cycle would slow lambing down a lot in big flocks. I put a team of rams in at once and hope for everything lambing in 3weeks, most are done in 2.
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I guess it depends on flock / group size and area. Yes I'd use multiple tups first cycle if I'd got hundreds of ewes across hundreds of acres, but for a more usual batching of 50 ewes, one tup should have no trouble getting them all first time, two would be counter-productive.
The OP has 10 gimmers... ;)
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Surprised thats its okay to let a tup lamb "on the job" so young.
I went out to condition score our tup lambs last night. A couple of them had really sticky backs, and as I peeled my hand off, I thought "I wonder what that is?" :innocent:
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Sorry to be an idiot about this but I'm getting a bit confused about ewe lambs and gimmers, and whether I can tup mine young ladies. Apart from the 4 ewes from 2012 and 2013 I have their 4 female lambs, born April 2015.
I was thinking that a gimmer was this years female lamb but wikipedia gives the following;
Gimmer (/???m?r/, not /?d??m?r/) – a young female sheep, usually before her first lamb (especially used in the north of England and Scotland). Also theave.
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Yes, gimmer is the sheep equivalent of heifer - a breeding female who hasn't yet bred. Unless it says gimmer lamb or gimmer shearling, you only know which from the context.
I think generally people think it better to leave primitive type ewe lambs to run on, ie., to not breed them till they are shearlings, so they have their first lamb at two years old.
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"Yes, gimmer is the sheep equivalent of heifer2 :roflanim: That's brilliant Sally. Another term to learn. I sort of know what a heifer is really but I wouldn't bet my cap on it if you know what I mean.
Thank you very much for all the responses everyone. Much appreciated by this novice.
I'll put the 4 ewes to the tup this November and leave the "gimmers" till next November.
Which make me think.....where do I put him between this November and next November?
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If the tup lamb is well grown, at least 6 months old and at least 60% of his final size / weight, in good condition, he should have no trouble at all with 10 ladies. Althouuughhh... It's generally advised to give a lamb no more than 15 ladies, ideally with most of them being experienced, while he learns his job. If all his ladies are gimmers, so neither they nor he know what they are doing yet :-J, it might be wise to allow 2 cycles ;)
Last year, Chad, my Shetland then aged 6 months, tupped my 15 girls (of which 6 were first timers) no problem, even Rosie Mule who dwarfed him (but was very experienced ;))
And we've used tup lambs on the commercial flock several times, never had a problem.
I don't know..... My tup lambs and cull ewes were in together and the tup lambs got them all in lamb, I know that because they all lambed 5 months later. I mean't to send them off to market but the price was terrible at the time, so I decided to wait until the spring and they got in lamb, it was a very nice surprise and the lambs were unrelated and really good if I may say so. Mine are Lleyn though would that make a difference? ???
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Which make me think.....where do I put him between this November and next November?
In the freezer...
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Thank you so much everyone!
My 'gimmers' are 'shearlings', so one tup lamb for 2 cycles/6 weeks should do the job.
I only joined the forum yesterday, and I've learnt loads from this one question. I have plenty more ..... ;)
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Which make me think.....where do I put him between this November and next November?
In the freezer...
:roflanim: :roflanim:
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Why does everybody seem to remove their tup? Our tup stays with the ewes most of the year. I just take him out mid August (which makes him sulk) pop him back with them on the 5th Nov. Then he stays with them all through the rest of the year, when the ewes are lambing he takes himself off to the other end of the field almost like he is trying to avoid being blamed for his actions.
I don’t know if anyone mentioned it but ewe lambs need to be well grown and in really good condition if they are to be tupped. Ours are a little too small this year so they will kept away from the tup until next autumn. But after tupping ewe lambs before I would do it again if they were big and strong enough.
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Why does everybody seem to remove their tup?
Because people want a compact lambing more than they want the extra ewe or two to have a lamb, because the rams can sometimes bother lambing ewes and create problems, because if feeding cake to in lamb ewes rams can get over fat and push ewes off feed... probably more reasons, but thats a start anyway
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One of my last Shetland tups had a quick one-way trip to market last February as he was - very suddenly- getting incredibly aggressive towards the ewes as well as me... it was all food-orientated, he wouldn't even let the ewes near the hay anymore... always a danger. (and my nearest abattoir is a 150mile round trip, mart is 5 miles...)
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Why does everybody seem to remove their tup?
Mine gets 4 weeks (I use a teaser first) ... after that is removed I do not want to be lambing forever ... and do want to do only one or two trips to the abattoir with finished lambs (an hour away) ........ ewes not pregnant can be removed from group.
over 3/4 of mine lambed in 8 days this year