The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: Kitchen Cottage on April 30, 2013, 07:17:10 am
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when I moved into my house 6 years ago it was March and my first day back from work (in the dark) I drove up and i thought the headlights had a strange effect, very pretty actually, it was like the ground had waves on it..... yup, you've got it.... as I got closer I realised it was a sea of rats startled by the headlights. There were about 70 rats at least on my yard. Well, the property had 9 old stables and a big barn filled with sh1t and old food so it was a haven.
Over the years the stables have gone and I have better husbandry, but I've used rat poison (slaymore) to control them. I really want to move to something a lot more bird friendly.... any suggestions? I've tried traps and sticky pads in the past wthout much success
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I'm led to believe Jack Russels are quite friendly and fairly effective!!!
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We have a Jack Russell who comes out with me to the stables every day, he has caught the odd rat. I keep my cats beds in the barn where the stables are and have only seen one rat over the winter and it was dealt with by the cats. the other thing, if there is no food source rats will move on. All out animal food are in rat proff bins and I keep the feed room floor clean.
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I have posted this tip before,
mix bait grain with builders plaster , this set in the moisture in their guts , and wraps them up nicely without poisoning other animals. :thumbsup:
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agree with the jack russel method. Humane, enviromentally friendly and fascinating to watch, what's not to like.
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I have one of these...she catches them and any too large for her to dispatch she passes to the dog (a terrier X)
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I have posted this tip before,
mix bait grain with builders plaster , this set in the moisture in their guts , and wraps them up nicely without poisoning other animals. :thumbsup:
Please don't - that's horrific :furious:
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They are only rats, so is dying of severe constipation any worse than a cat playing with a wounded rat or mouse any kinder ? a dead rat is a dead rat, kill the dirty things by any means possible that does not harm other animals or raptors.
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I rehomed feral cats from the Cats Protection League. They stop any rats setting up shop. And the Border Terrier would get any they missed. In our roof space we sometimes get mice and they are dealt with by the spring traps which to my mind are a humane and instant way of dealing with it. Choc raisin as bait is very popular.
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They are only rats, so is dying of severe constipation any worse than a cat playing with a wounded rat or mouse any kinder ? a dead rat is a dead rat, kill the dirty things by any means possible that does not harm other animals or raptors.
I recall that some Austrian with a 'tache thought along those lines but had graded up to humans.
We use a terrier - quick and clean, doesn't harm other animals and is very efficient.
There are so many other ways to kill a rat, many of them humane. Doling out wanton cruelty to an animal, no matter how much you hate it, is surely beneath people today. I doubt that many TASers would go for your method Tizaala.
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They are only rats, so is dying of severe constipation any worse than a cat playing with a wounded rat or mouse any kinder ? a dead rat is a dead rat, kill the dirty things by any means possible that does not harm other animals or raptors.
I recall that some Austrian with a 'tache thought along those lines but had graded up to humans.
We use a terrier - quick and clean, doesn't harm other animals and is very efficient.
There are so many other ways to kill a rat, many of them humane. Doling out wanton cruelty to an animal, no matter how much you hate it, is surely beneath people today. I doubt that many TASers would go for your method Tizaala.
Actually I would think any way of poisoning an animal is inhumane, BUT if we wouldn't do it to rats we would be over-run with them. Not all of us have cats (at least two n our family are allergic to them) or dogs and not that many of them will take rats.
We have to put poison down - even without access to food they burrow underneath our sheds and the muckheap. So it's a simple question of who's cleverer... hopefully it's the humans. We use whole-wheat poison to usually good effect. If I found it doesn't work anymore (probably just a question of time) I probably would try Tizaala's method... wouldn't really want to catch the plague...
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Unless you have black rats , those that are usually around are the wrong sort , brown rats . I don't know why , but brown rats don't carry the plague , or the type of flea that spreads it ? , not sure which .
But whatever , i hate rats and will kill them however i can , although i don't use poison as i don't want to kill other animals that may eat the dead rats .
So for me , any way other than poison , 'any' way !
Saying that , i shoot them mainly , or live trap and then drown .
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The plaster method sounds barbaric and I don't see how it would spare any other creatures the same fate (in the same way that poison could)
I'd be inclined to use poison in proper bait boxes plus invite some airgunners in - always people looking for permission
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The rats take the poison out of the bait boxes or eat it and then go away and die slowly . Other animals then eat the dead rat , the poison in the rats body then kills that animal and then the same again with that one .
The plaster would set in the rat , if it ate enough , and be harmless to any animal that ate the dead rat .
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Thank you Rusty, my point exactly, Poison is so indiscriminate in what it kills, plaster is single use and only kills the target animal without harming further down the food chain. :thinking:
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Unless you have black rats , those that are usually around are the wrong sort , brown rats . I don't know why , but brown rats don't carry the plague , or the type of flea that spreads it ? , not sure which .
But whatever , i hate rats and will kill them however i can , although i don't use poison as i don't want to kill other animals that may eat the dead rats .
So for me , any way other than poison , 'any' way !
Saying that , i shoot them mainly , or live trap and then drown .
These days Weils disease is a much more serious and often fatal disease than the plague.
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Thank you Rusty, my point exactly, Poison is so indiscriminate in what it kills, plaster is single use and only kills the target animal without harming further down the food chain. :thinking:
Fair enough. I was under the impression that rats would carry poisoned bait back into their nests to feed the young. I guess this way they'd starve anyway...
My father once called a firm of ratters into a pub where they had an infestation. The rats killed two dogs...
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what kind of dogs?!
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what kind of dogs?!
Terriers... there were that many rats and they were overwhelmed
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That's awful :( I always worry about my cat and dog getting bitten by rats, let alone swamped by them - poor terriers.
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I have posted this tip before,
mix bait grain with builders plaster , this set in the moisture in their guts , and wraps them up nicely without poisoning other animals. :thumbsup:
strange you would admit to doing this sort of thing on the internet as it is against most pest control acts and can result in some hefty fines
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The rats take the poison out of the bait boxes or eat it and then go away and die slowly . Other animals then eat the dead rat , the poison in the rats body then kills that animal and then the same again with that one .
The plaster would set in the rat , if it ate enough , and be harmless to any animal that ate the dead rat .
most people think this happens with rat poison but it works on a L.D.50 that is a lethal dose of 50% . the amount of poison for a rat is low so a medium dog would need to eat loads of poisoned rats to have an effect , In comparison an average human would need to have around 20kgs to reach the L.D.50
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Think most people use rat poison without knowing the best methods . rat poison is to easy for anyone to get . If people had to go on training and find out how to safe bait and use it the way its meant then they would get results and eliminate the risks of accidental poisoning and reduce the risks of rats becoming bait shy . With the firm that I work with we are all trained to grade 2 in pest control . Know your laws, safe practices and where to bait and if your not sure get someone in to do the job , everyone to their own trade .
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""strange you would admit to doing this sort of thing on the internet as it is against most pest control acts and can result in some hefty fines""
[/size][/color]
[/size].....Show me the legislation that covers plaster !!! [/color] :thinking: :thinking:
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I joined this forum a couple of years ago but didn't use it much. I returned a month or two ago and seem to get on with it much better than I did the first time around. When I returned, I posted this article that I wrote many years ago. The information in it still holds good. Suprisingly, it was more or less ignored the first time around buthere goes again.
Well I’m only really qualified to talk on one subject and as I would like to contribute to this new forum , my chosen topic as a one time professional pest controller, has got to be that of vermin.
In my work I use a veritable arsenal of rodenticide, pesticide, gas and traps against the constant menace of a seemingly ever growing throng of pests.
We as chicken keepers are in the frontline when it comes to the number one pest species. The Rat! We owe it to our neighbours, families and to our birds to wage a 365 days of the year all out war against the rat. I shouldn’t have to tell you of the dangers they pose but if you’d seen some of the sights that I’ve beheld, then you would understand why I say that even one rat on your place is unacceptable.
Ugh! Rats! I hate them.
The number one tool against rat has got to be poison. A good dog or a trap will catch rats but it will never get them all. The right poison put down in the right way often will.
When I turn out to an infestation I split the job into two definite halves. The first is to get rid of the rats and then just as importantly to try and prevent re-infestation .
Rats need two things to survive – that’s food and harbourage. If you can deny one or both of them, then you are on to a winner.
Most of the measures which need to be taken are just sheer common sense but if you are anything like me then you are an expert at putting off the blatantly obvious.
Firstly, do get yourself secure food bins with tight fitting lids. Don’t leave food in paper sacks and expect rats and mice to find the paper impenetrable.
Do try to feed your birds the right amount of food so that they clean up pretty quickly. Don’t leave great amounts at the bottom of runs especially after the birds have gone to roost.
Now onto harbourage. Harbourage is pest control jargon for somewhere to live. Unless you are fortunate enough to have tailor-made accommodation, the chances are that your bird houses will have inherent design faults that will encourage rats to stay for bed and breakfast with you. However if you keep your place tidy then you are on the right track.
By tidy, I mean get the scrap man in to remove that rusting pile of old junk and put a match to that pile of old wood or rubbish and generally get rid of that rat hotel!
Two things that I would suggest that you try and do whenever possible is to raise your existing sheds up off the floor and try to get 18 -24 inches clearance so that you can see if you have got unwanted visitors beneath your buildings.
Secondly, you can save all the tin sheet you can get and get it nailed flush to the bottom of all your doors and even consider using it to clad vulnerable areas
Now down to poison. The number one rule with poison is don’t skimp. Being ‘tight’ with your poison could mean that the rats get a sub-lethal dose and encourage resistance or bait shyness.
Warfarin has been on the market for 30-40 years and is known as a first generation anti-coagulant. You can still get it but it really has come to the end of its shelf life. With Warfarin you have to get the rats to eat an amount of poison over a period of time. Warfarin is what is known as a multi dose poison.
In the past ten years we have had the advent of a number of so called second generation anti-coagulants. They still use the same methodology to kill the rats but are single-dose poisons. The rats have to consume a lot less of the poison and only have to have one feed on the bait to get a good kill rate.
Down to practicalities. You need to keep poison down in the form of bait stations all year round and in that way you’ll never get a build up of vermin.
Bait stations can take the form of lengths of plastic or clay pipes placed in strategic positions. If you have the pipes about 3 foot long you can spoon the bait into the middle of it so that only rats can get at it.
Rat poison is now also sold in the form of wax blocks. These are excellent, if a bit expensive. They are weather resistant and can be nailed to the sides of sheds on rat runs and are less likely to attract the chickens.
One thing that I would advise against is the use of scatter bags. Although they might appear handy they aren’t as good as they are cracked up to be. Rat colonies have a definite hierarchy and the dominant rats often carry the bags away to keep them from their lesser brethren, hide them and forget where they put them so the poison is lost and therefore wasted.
Yeah! When it comes to pests I’m a mine of information and could literally go on and on, and if any of you members need advice on rodents or insects etc, then just PM me ! (http://overthegate.myfreeforum.org/images/smiles/Cool_Smilies/icon_lol.gif)
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""strange you would admit to doing this sort of thing on the internet as it is against most pest control acts and can result in some hefty fines""
[/size][/color]
[/size].....Show me the legislation that covers plaster !!! [/color] :thinking: :thinking:
The protection of animals act 1911 , This act gives general protection to domestic and wild animals. Under this act is an offence to do or omit to do anything likely to cause unnecessary suffering to domestic or wild animals. Why only approved techniques and methods for control of rats are allowed , otherwise we could all run around putting down plaster or antifreeze and put them through who knows what ????
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Over the gate , Like you Im also a qualified pest control worker and have been full time for the last 6 years , have done my field biologist degree level 2 and thinking about doing level 3. only a few things of discretion about your posting
1. In the past ten years we have had the advent of a number of so called second generation anti-coagulants. They still use the same methodology to kill the rats but are single-dose poisons. The rats have to consume a lot less of the poison and only have to have one feed on the bait to get a good kill rate.
active ingredients commonly used in second generation poisons are bromodialone , difenacoum but they are both chronic poisons (chronic are slow acting multi-feed baits that cause minimal pain in their action . alphachlorous is also a second generation poison but is an acute poison single feed these are quick acting and effective but often painful in their action and only used as a last resort, worth noting that acute can only be used inside with all 4 walls and roof to prevent accidental poisoning of non target animals
Rats need two things to survive – that’s food and harbourage. If you can deny one or both of them, then you are on to a winner.
rats need 3 things to survive - thats food ,water and harbourage
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My Border Terrier is doing a good job at getting rid of the rats , she has had 3 today so far.
She can scent them out from a great distance and wont give up untill she has them.
Today she spent 4 hrs at a dry stone wall going back and forth untill she finaly got a hugh pregnant female !
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Reg. Have you got a degree in nit picking and splitting hairs too? What are you like?. :roflanim:
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My Border Terrier is doing a good job at getting rid of the rats , she has had 3 today so far.
She can scent them out from a great distance and wont give up untill she has them.
Today she spent 4 hrs at a dry stone wall going back and forth untill she finaly got a hugh pregnant female !
Well done that dog.
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Reg. Have you got a degree in nit picking and splitting hairs too? What are you like?. :roflanim:
Hello OtG if you don't mind me picking your nits perhaps you or Reg can clarify something. In you post you say the best method is to have bait stations down for 365 days a year this is my preferred method, a sort of bed & breakfast service for our rodent friends. Am told this is now illegal or a non- approved method, the correct way is to put down non lethal baits only switching it to lethal bait when you notice the non lethal bait has been taken by which time you probably have a good infestation.
Is this correct?
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None lethal baits? What are you proposing ? That you put food down as a welcome to the rats and then poison them once you've attracted them in? Common sense says that this amounts to nothing more than an Agent provocateur strategy that simply defeats one of the main weapons in stopping an infestation and that is managing your holding so that vermin are denied a food source in the first place.
Practices in the use of rat poison may have changed over the years but by keeping poison down all year around, the smallholder ( not the professional pest controller) will be able to prevent heavy infestations from bulding up. IMO, its too late to respond and the damage has already been done when your place is already over run.
Common sense says that if there aren't any rats on your premises, then any bait you place in your baiting stations, will remain untouched, so whats the problem? You might as well have it there as not and take a proactive approach rather than a reactive one.
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The nanny state stopped us using the best stuff....CYMAG ...one dose fits all pests :excited: wish I could lay my hands on some now. :innocent:
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I would love to hear from the pest control experts about the risks - and how to minimise them - of poisoning non-target species, particularly the farm cat, terrier, collie etc. Not to mention buzzards.
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Me too, SITN.
Never used poison until last couple of weeks but couldn't "pretend" I couldn't see them anymore ::) . Really hate using it.
My first choice would have been to find someone with a terrier. Most humane and avoiding potential effects on other species eg cat, dogs, buzzard, kite .... I thought ??? . But couldn't find anyone. Apparently the local keeper had a good ratter but it's now too ancient to do anything at all and he didn't know of anyone else around here. :( Tried live traps and snappy traps but ratty and pals seemed too clever.
Son has just bought an air rifle and is fine tuning his "aim".
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I would love to hear from the pest control experts about the risks - and how to minimise them - of poisoning non-target species, particularly the farm cat, terrier, collie etc. Not to mention buzzards.
Surely if you use the whole-grain type, in bait stations, it is unlikely that cats/dogs and buzzards (or other birds) get to it? That's what we do now routinely come autumn in the hay shed and near our goat shed. Don't think we killed anything other than mice or rats, maybe the odd shrew, and I do find the odd dead rat hidden somewhere, never out in the open... (it's actually the only animal I can't deal with - dead or alive, can't even put them away... ::) even when VERY dead. They do give me the creeps - need "a screaming and jumping on nearest table" emotiwatsit for this)
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Hiding the bait from cats, dogs, buzzards, etc, isn't the problem - it's cats, dogs, buzzards, etc, eating the poisoned rats I'm worried about.
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I've always worked on the fact that if you see one rat you have an infestation so do something about it on seeing the first one .
Baited cage traps & a .22 air rifle were the most effective for me initially , but like most people also I used secured bait stations on the building perimeters and then gradually moved them out to the outer perimeter of the area I was trying to protect.
In my heyday I used a neat product on a mixed seed base that was called DRATT.
I used to mix it with a tin of plain cocoa powder six or seven types of bird seed , grated up soya bean some pig nuts and corn in the cement mixer with a 1/2 a litre of corn oil . A barrow full used to last around a month .
Had to sign the posions register for it & was only allowed to buy a litre at a time
It was very very effective . None of our farm cats or our dogs got secondary posioning , perhaps a few corvids got hit eating carrion rat but I suspect that not many rats made it back out of their holes once they had had a feed .
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I have put poison down where nothing but the rats and a few spiders can get it. I've never found a dead rat but I understood that they went to their nest to die.
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You've all got me thinking - the only rats I've seen have been three (big) dead ones that the cats have brought in but how can we tell if we have a problem? I keep all the feed in bins and we put the poultry feeders inside at night (and I think their run is rat proof anyway). We also don't have piles of junk around the place. But how do I know that's enough? I don't really want to leave random poison around on the off chance. Somebody also said that rats are mostly attracted by poultry faeces, is this correct? There's plenty of poo around the place from their daytime free ranging!
BTW, another option is if you know anybody who flies hawks. Quite often they're looking for places to fly them so they'd come and clear some rats for free. The only concern I had was whether they could target the rats and rabbits as opposed to the chickens.
H
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Another consideration is the effect that a hawk on the premises would have on the chooks. When I kept about 20, I had friends visit, who brought their pet buzzard with them. It spent all day tethered to a perch inour shed, poor thing, and was flown every evening. My hens' egg production went from around 18 a day to around 3 and they hardly left the vicinity of the hen house.
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When we moved to this farm in Devon, even the workmen ran away screeching at the size of the rats. Big jessies! I have put down no poison or anything - just left my two cats to do the work of keeping them in check. Occasionally, around lambing time when my ewes are in the barn - I see a couple of rats running a straight line along a rear wall. When they see me... they stop and stare.. hoping I'll move on. They are so comical looking. Hah I can't get worked up about them because so far they do no damage.