The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: edessex on March 04, 2013, 03:52:01 pm
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I currently keep chickens privately, but am also self-employed. My business is Horticultural services, but I am planning to stretch to Horticultural & Agricultural services, so poultry care would be well within what I do as a trade.
I am considering keeping my chickens as a business sideline.
What are the Pros and Cons of keeping them as a business?
A clear Pro would be that all materials and feed would be a business expense, not a private expense, so that saves me a bit in tax.
Would I have any more responsibilities than I do now? e.g. egg stamping...
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You don't need to stamp eggs unless you're grading them. A bit more info here about selling eggs:
http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/livestock/poultry/selling-eggs/ (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/livestock/poultry/selling-eggs/)
HTH.
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Regarding re-using old egg boxes? I believe that's not allowed anymore. Also in the TAS article Dan you mention it being illegal to sell eggs from hens running with a cockerel This has been debated many times in many places and I can't remember anyone being able to come up with the regulation which says this.
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Regarding re-using old egg boxes? I believe that's not allowed anymore. Also in the TAS article Dan you mention it being illegal to sell eggs from hens running with a cockerel This has been debated many times in many places and I can't remember anyone being able to come up with the regulation which says this.
Thanks goodness - I re read the guidlenes and had a little panic! I dont want to get rid of cockrel as he really does keep them in order (calls them to bed when I say bedtime and waits at the door untill they are all in!). I havnt dared do the maths... but I dont know what scale you would need to get to to make a decent profit? I include them in my tax return (but havnt split them from the other incomes and expenses (must do that) - it feels like we about break even with 14 layers (our profit is eating the hatched cockrels and the eggs that are no good to sell (too dirty, thin shell, slight crack, laid in funny place so date of lay unknown etc)).
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Thanks for the heads-up, I'll check out the source of the info about fertile eggs.
I just read on a poultry forum that the sale of graded fertile eggs for human consumption is prohibited, but there is an exemption to this regulation for producers with less than 50 hens who sell their produce "at farm gate" and as ungraded - will try to verify that.
Edit: found it, the regulations list this as a characteristic of class A eggs: "Germ cell: imperceptible development"
The implication is that the presence of a germ cell is acceptable, hence selling eggs from hens running with a cockerel is acceptable. The most important thing will be to sell them as soon after laying as possible, and advise buyers to keep refrigerated.
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Thanks guys, just to check I've got this right:
-Ungraded eggs DO NOT need to be stamped
-Fertile eggs CAN be sold 'at the gate'
-Selling as a 'business' is no different to selling privately
On a related note, the local place I buy sacks of corn from also sells fresh eggs, they have a notice saying all eggs sold as of April (I think) MUST be stamped, I also overheard a guy complaining while I was at a livestock auction that he bought 200 eggs and they were all stamped... Didn't catch the whole conversation, but it sounded like he regularly buys from the same supplier and they are not usually stamped.
Also, is there a legal ratio of hens to cockerels?
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Whatever the regulations are, and they're pretty difficult to actually pin down, they really relate to food safety issues. For instance using old egg boxes could transfer pathogens onto your fresh eggs. Fertile eggs would not pose any risk to food safety. In my mind if you use common sense and have a reasoned answer for any questions that are asked you won't go far wrong.
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Thanks guys, just to check I've got this right:
-Ungraded eggs DO NOT need to be stamped
-Fertile eggs CAN be sold 'at the gate'
-Selling as a 'business' is no different to selling privately
On a related note, the local place I buy sacks of corn from also sells fresh eggs, they have a notice saying all eggs sold as of April (I think) MUST be stamped, I also overheard a guy complaining while I was at a livestock auction that he bought 200 eggs and they were all stamped... Didn't catch the whole conversation, but it sounded like he regularly buys from the same supplier and they are not usually stamped.
Also, is there a legal ratio of hens to cockerels?
So it sounds like there is breakpoint in regulations at 50 hens. Selling as a business is differnt to selling privately (presuming you mean cash, not declaring for tax) in that you do list all costs to be ductued against income as you said in initially, thereby being taxed on profit rather than income. I am self employed as a Forest School leader and have the smallholding listed as a separate business (a huge loss making one at the moment!). I will be keeping below the 50 hens! (btw I do write the date of lay on each egg and then there is information to people suggesting best before 3 weeks from date of lay). I dont think there are any rules about cockrel ratios - but there is lots of advice on here about the right ratio for happy hens (I'm not sure it matters if you have too many hens - unless you want to hatch all your eggs - only too many cockrels) I've 10-20 hens/cockrel in my mind.... anyone??
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Would leaving the eggs loose, and providing a stack of 'free' used egg-boxes technically be a loophole, as the customers are putting the eggs in, and not the seller?
Is there any rules about door-to-door sales of eggs? A few of my clients (for garden maintenance) would probably be interested in buying fresh eggs...
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So it sounds like there is breakpoint in regulations at 50 hens.
:-[ I'm buggered then...
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So it sounds like there is breakpoint in regulations at 50 hens.
I couldn't find anything to support that at all, other than the need to register your flock if you have over 50 hens. From what I could see the regulations kick in when you start grading eggs.
btw I do write the date of lay on each egg and then there is information to people suggesting best before 3 weeks from date of lay
We don't mark the eggs at all - our sign says use within 3 weeks of purchase, and we almost always sell out the same day they are laid.
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you can have up to 350 hens before you sstart grading and dating eggs ,,
if your in scotland call Senior Agricultural Officer (Poultry): General Enquiries 0300 244 9856
or call the english 1
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What an interesting discussion. We have a routing farm inspection pending (we are a small smallholding with a couple of pigs and about 70 chickens, and are panicking. To what extent will we need to adhere to these rules? I can't seem to pin down how far to take these issues.
For example, issues of storing eggs, we clean ours before we sell them (using a proper egg wash) should we be doing this in a designated place? Will this be checked? And what is a flock book??
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What an interesting discussion. We have a routing farm inspection pending (we are a small smallholding with a couple of pigs and about 70 chickens, and are panicking. To what extent will we need to adhere to these rules? I can't seem to pin down how far to take these issues.
For example, issues of storing eggs, we clean ours before we sell them (using a proper egg wash) should we be doing this in a designated place? Will this be checked? And what is a flock book??
Don't panic too much, the inspections are much more about education than enforcement, the inspectors want you to do things right, and should take the approach of helping you to do that. They seem to be most interested in storage of feed, medicines etc.
As for the chooks, the flock should be registered because of its size, but unless you're grading your eggs you shouldn't need to do much more than sell them in clean boxes and give your customers an indication of when they should use the eggs by.
"Flock book" has a specific meaning for some breeds and species (for example most breeds of sheep maintain a central flock book, which holds the details of registered stock) but for poultry I don't know the term.
We (when I say 'we' I mean Rosemary!) maintain (loosely) a record of what hens are in our flocks, when they were bought, their breed etc, but I don't know if that's a flock book. Where did you see the term?
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Thanks Dan, thats reassuring. 'Flock book' was on the list of things the inspector will be wanting to look at. We have registered the chickens, so thats not a problem.
Hubbie is also asking what we should be legally doing with any dead chickens?
If it is about education then great, its always good to learn :)
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I don't think there are any regs you need to worry about as far as chickens are concerned. There aren't any tagging issues or movement licences involved like there are for other livestock. If you have a lot of birds the EHO might ask what you do to dispose of dead stock so it might pay to have an answer ready that complies with the law. Let's face it if you've got 70 odd birds and they lay well you can only shift about five dozen eggs a day. They're much more interested in bigger operations where a serious threat to human health or a major disease outbreak among the birds could occur.
Cleaning eggs is another question. Dunno if you're supposed to do that according to the rules.
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I've just been searching defra for egg selling and producing guidelines. It's an absolute quagmire of contradictions and gobbledeegook. I doubt very much if even the EHOs or trading standards people properly know the rules.
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I've just been searching defra for egg selling and producing guidelines. It's an absolute quagmire of contradictions and gobbledeegook. I doubt very much if even the EHOs or trading standards people properly know the rules.
I agree! I've just been looking re: disposal of fallen stock....... According to www.gov.uk/dealing-with-animal-by-products (http://www.gov.uk/dealing-with-animal-by-products):
[/size]You must not bury or burn fallen stock in the open, other than in exceptional circumstances - eg the outbreak of a notifiable disease - as this risks spreading disease through groundwater or air pollution.[/color][/size]When you find fallen stock, you should arrange for it to go to an approved:[/color][/i]
[/size][/color]- [/size]Anyone know of a local maggot farm?! [/color] :roflanim:
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I don't know of any maggot farms but I know of a few farms with maggots!
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But what do you do with the maggots when they die?! :excited:
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I burn all dead in an incinerator, simple old metal water tank.
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I was told you shouldn't wash eggs prior to sale as it reduced the natural protection of the shell and it would be liable to a. go off quicker and b. become contaminated if you did ???
Some folk prefer clean eggs and others are happy to see a sawdusty or muddy egg as they know that is natural for hens not living in cages with eggs rolling away down the wire. Any that are less attractive than that, I use myself which given I haven't enough regular clients for the eggs I'm getting (following expansion) means quite a few..
Aren't supermarket eggs given a sell by of 28 days rather than 21? Or have I misread and the extra week is the use by? I haven't bought eggs in a few years for obvious reasons so I may have misinformed my clients but I said to use within 28 days so only partly..
And I didn't know about used egg boxes - is that true that you HAVE to buy and use new ones for selling? Many of my customers bring their boxes back and I can't say I've refilled the same boxes exactly for each one.. By the time I add purchase of new boxes I'd be struggling to make a profit, given the cost of feed has gone up and there were initial start up costs and some replacement stuff coming up now plus the odd vet item.. I was wondering about investing in some labels to make the reused boxes more attractive at carboot sales in spring/summer, but I hadn't expected to buy boxes every time too :-\
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why dont you call the egg marketing board they are always happy to help even if the questions you might think are stupid,, i know from experiance :innocent: lol
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Food safety is all about controlling hazards and preventing contamination. If you re use old egg boxes you have no control. The boxes could be carrying salmonella, listeria, e-coli, or any other nasties. These are then transferred to your eggs. Yes, the eggs themselves could already be carrying those things but there lies the reason for not washing them. The act of washing could cause pathogens to pass through the porous shell into the egg itself which if not effectively cooked could cause an outbreak of food poisoning. If someone got a serious case of food poisoning from eating your eggs you wouldn't be getting many customers after that would you? A pack of egg boxes looks very cheap compared to the fines and compensation you could have to find if something went wrong.
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What are egg washers for then?
Would selling as a business make me more liable than selling privately?
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I would say that yes selling as a business would make anyone more likely to have to face the consequences if something went wrong. But only on the grounds that if you only sell two dozen eggs a week from your back door you'd probably be given the benefit of the doubt. As a business you are expected to do things right. The rules for "farm gate" sales are a lot less strict than those for serious egg producing businesses. But even as a small producer of food you should ensure that you take every precaution to prevent any incidence of food safety being compromised. All food safety practice is based on the producer being able to show that they took every possible step to avoid problems occuring. the phrase that is used is "due diligence" which is self explanatory really.
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Going back to the original question. There are a lot of ways to make a business out of poultry that have nothing to do with selling eggs for food.
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Hello Hughesy
Going back to the original question. There are a lot of ways to make a business out of poultry that have nothing to do with selling eggs for food.
Would love to hear you expand on that a little :)
Thanks
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Ok. Hatch chicks and sell them. Sell POL pullets and/or breeding stock. Sell eggs for incubation. Sell poultry accessories and feed. Rear birds for meat. Build poultry housing. Run courses for newbies. Write stuff for magazines or a book.................the market is enormous these days so use your imagination.
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My plan is mainly to breed fancy birds and sell at POL or sell hatching eggs.
However, we have a number of unbreedables inc. ex-batts; those eggs would be sold as eaters...