The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: firemansam on December 05, 2012, 04:13:40 pm
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We have 6 easycare ewes and 2 southdown ewes, my wife being a bit of a sheep expert wants a brown one!
What sort I asked, I dunno, a brown one, she replied!
See what Im dealing with!!!!!!!!!!
Anyway what would you advise. Would love a coloured ryeland but they seem as rare as rocking horse poo around staffordshire.
I want something reasonable to look at that we can bucket train and is not too scatty as it will be more of a pet than anything else.
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You can get brown shetlands - I have one. They are described as 'moorit' tho as the colour, so that might be worth looking out for. The brown wool also gets the highest price among the Shetland colours followed by white and then all the grey/multicoloured ones.
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most of the sheep round here look brown i think it might be the weather though :excited: :excited: :excited:
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This kind of thing? The white is strictly optional.
(https://a13f86dc-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/fronhaulfarm/shetland-sheep/DSC02193.JPG?attachauth=ANoY7cqfh7dQ486DTfSiqXx3UPEr9MqYTCtjlnP3YUI8DWDVDksG1G6goZTyr4l-_ZCI-6l2_KeiSXiqKPNFLcbr7VHklwBbKXCeRezxZptMf9_1D_VjvX4KwLK-R6SNhZSvoj86sMc7ZuiifY97sOLSEJVR_utNWOyjyilC-aBQiEEwhomkF8kWq4erqDSImgB5zclgnc8j73MKZXBzaGgXE1aI2NZdsxd4cn0uglaz841o0gR6NHc%3D&attredirects=0)
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We have Zwartbles, they are brown with a white blaize, white socks and a white tipped tail - very striking! They are naturally a fairly tame breed, some becoming exceptionally friendly. I think because they were a dual purpose dairy and meat breed so would have had to have been reasonably docile for milking. PM me if you would like to know more about the breed, we even have a few for sale in Shropshire.
You can see some pictures at http://zwartbles.webs.com/2012lambs.htm (http://zwartbles.webs.com/2012lambs.htm)
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I have a brown(ish) shetland who is very sweet and needs next to no food, I also have two zwartbles ewe lambs who are LOVELY :) they are very dark brown almost chocolate colour,
they are lovely and tame and love eating bread out of my hand :)
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I'm in Somerset and have a shetland x castlemilk moorit ewe and lamb for sale. The ewe is moorit (chocolate brown) and her ewe lamb is very dark brown almost black. To a good home more important than price, but I won't split the pair :love:
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I'll second (or is it third? ???) the Zwartbles recommendation. Ours are very friendly (we bought ours from Blacksheep ^^^), particularly the ewes, who love attention and a good face scratch.
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I have a brown Ryeland ram and Zwartbles ewes and a ram, all are friendly. The Zwartbles are a big breed and grow quite tall.
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:wave:
Soay ??????? Light brown, dark brown, black and "pretty". Beautiful and can be bucket trained. They can be flighty but I have one that is so tame that she can be given a cuddle and jumps up like a dog and really is a bit of a pest ::) ;D .... so with a bit of work they can be very friendly and are full of character.
P'm if you want to know anything more about them. I have some tame lambs. :sheep:
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Coloured Ryelands are lovely, but as you say, not common and expensive.
Moorit Shetlands are pretty, small enough for women to handle easily and can be trained to come and eat out of your hand (half my flock do). They're very easy lambers, good mothers and will produce good lambs from a Southdown tup (it's usual not to tup them til they're shearlings).
Here are some pics Shetland sheep (http://www.shetland-sheep.org.uk/) PS it's a new website live today, so isn't fully 'populated' yet.
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Can't Wensleydales be brown too? I'll second Shetlands being absloutely lovely. I have three Moorits.
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Yes, you can get coloured Wensleydales, but we're really talking hens teeth there. Beautiful, enormous and as rare as.....an honest politician ;)
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Manx Loughtan are a brown breed with the added benefit of two or four horns.
I would go for a moorit Shetland though ;D :sheep:
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Another vote here for either a shetland or Soay.... mine here are very friendly. i reckon the soays are prettier but thats just my biased opinion.
firemansam - if you roll one of your easycares in the mud......eh voila :innocent:
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Shetland Moorit, Castlemilk Moorit (horned, the most elegant sheep you can find :)), Manx Loaghtan (can be 4-horned) - all lovely, all can be tamed, all should cope with a Southdown tup, although I have to say mine are all getting a Shetland tup for their first lambs (tupping as shearlings) and I'll try a Southdown or similar later on.
A relative works where they have 4 Zwartbles as pet lawnmowers, they are not only tame they are trained to pull a carriage! Pause the video on this page (http://www.chariots.org.uk/displayteam.html) at 1:08 - 1:10 if you don't believe me!
Supposedly the Zwartbles fleece is black, but the sun bleaches it to dark brown - much as it does Hebrideans, I think?
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[size=78%]fleece is black, but the sun bleaches it to dark brown[/size]
Ditto for Black Welsh Mountain, bleaches to a copper tone. Would you prefer a colouring changing sheep? - black or brown depending on the season ;)
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Yes, the Shetlands change colour too, the Warm Blacks to a dark brown and the Moorits to a sort of surf-bum blonde :D
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<< Supposedly the Zwartbles fleece is black, but the sun bleaches it to dark brown - much as it does Hebrideans, I think?>>
It's really just the tips which are bleached brown - deep in the fleece it's still black and after shearing you have a black sheep not a brown.
The situation with Hebs is apparently different. Many also have weathered wool tips, but in addition there is thought to be a brown gene, so there are fairly black Hebs (which are plain-chocolate brown when you look closely) and there are much browner Hebs. The brown type are frowned on by the showing fraternity, so most people pretend they don't have any. I have some ;D :thumbsup:
The tendency to bleach also seems to be genetic as some families do it and some don't.
With Hebs there is also a 'silver' type, which is a bit like the body markings of a katmoget Shetland ie black face, belly, tail and chest, but with a silvered 'rug' thrown over its back. Again frowned on by the showing fraternity but visible in the photo of the first known flock of Hebs, so an ancient characteristic - nothing to do with choosing a brown sheep :surrender: :eyelashes:
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Ah yes, I didn't really consider the rarity aspect of the brown Wensleydales, just remembered a friend showing me the brown Wensleydale fleece she was almost wetting herself with excitement over ;D . She'd waited quite a while for it. It WAS stunning. I love how the black sheep get all coppery at the fleece tips. We've got a black Shetland, Rosie, here to put our black Gotland ram to whilst her mojo is working. It took a while for her mojo to come to the fore. I thought she'd left it behind at her owners, but, the last raddle colour went on last week and she has a gloriously red arse to go with her black fleece with coppery overtones. Quite a fetching look actually ;D
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Here we have before and after!! Super fleece with excellent crimp.
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Yes, you can get coloured Wensleydales, but we're really talking hens teeth there. Beautiful, enormous and as rare as.....an honest politician ;)
Not that rare....several years ago i bought a whole group of them off a local farmer! He had bought them not knowing what on earth they were :roflanim:
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Talking sun-faded... my Castlemilk Moorits look golden toffee-coloured; when you clip them it's a rich deep chocolate cake brown underneath. Most of my wee clip is stored in the dark but I've had a chunk of fleece lying about in daylight just to see... and it is undoubtedly fading. The tips are still lighter than the body, but the body is now coffee-with-just-a-splash-of-milk rather than rich deep chocolate cake brown.
So my question is... the other sheep who get the sunbleached tips - does the spun yarn fade over time, do your jumpers get lighter in colour as they're worn?
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<<So my question is... the other sheep who get the sunbleached tips - does the spun yarn fade over time, do your jumpers get lighter in colour as they're worn?>>
Now there's a question ;D You'll have to spin and knit one Sally, then check it every year for fading. I think it may well depend on if you wear it outside in the sun, or under a coat or always indoors...............most fading on the sheep takes place in the summer, when we don't tend to wear jumpers.
I was told when my children were babies not to hang their tiny white woolly cardigans on the line as they would turn yellow - which they did. I wonder if that is the same thing. Do white sheep go yellow in the sun?
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The brown type are frowned on by the showing fraternity, so most people pretend they don't have any. I have some ;D :thumbsup:
Fleecewife you sound like a bit of a rebel :roflanim:
Sally
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The brown type are frowned on by the showing fraternity, so most people pretend they don't have any. I have some ;D :thumbsup:
Fleecewife you sound like a bit of a rebel :roflanim:
Sally
:eyelashes: :eyelashes: :eyelashes:
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Interesting re the brown type of Hebridean, I always thought that they were more black/grey compared to Zwartbles. Is it right that if you breed a heb to a white sheep then the progeny will be white? If so definately different colour genetics going on as with Zs you always get a brown sheep with the first cross.
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Certainly with Shetlands, white 'covers' all other colour combinations.
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If so definately different colour genetics going on as with Zs you always get a brown sheep with the first cross.
Fascinating thing genetics - does it make a difference if it's the ewe or the ram who is the Zwartbles? I've bred my Zwartbles ram for the first time this year to a few white commercials as well as Zwartbles ewes, I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out. So long as they are healthy and don't die I'm not bothered!
Interestingly I have a brown Ryeland ram whose lambs are always white, he is bred with Charollais, Welsh mules and cross breeds. The lambs are occasionally born with a few brown spots but these disappear once they grow.
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Supposedly the Zwartbles fleece is black, but the sun bleaches it to dark brown - much as it does Hebrideans, I think?
The fleece of a Zwartbles must be like some 'black' horses who have the fading black gene as opposed to nonfading. I have Dales ponies who tend to go brownish in the summer, but there are some who stay pure black. I was told that the ones who fade have a 'fading black' gene, these are affected by sun/weather conditions whereas the pure (nonfading) blacks aren't and stay jet black.
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Interestingly I have a brown Ryeland ram whose lambs are always white, he is bred with Charollais, Welsh mules and cross breeds. The lambs are occasionally born with a few brown spots but these disappear once they grow.
Colour in Ryelands is recessive, so the brown fleece is only expressed if a colour gene is inherited from both parents. Your white lambs will be getting a coloured gene from their father, but not from their mothers.
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Colour in Ryelands is recessive, so the brown fleece is only expressed if a colour gene is inherited from both parents. Your white lambs will be getting a coloured gene from their father, but not from their mothers.
I have no idea about genetics but find it fascinating! So I take it that the colour in Zwartbles is dominant - does that mean a purebred ram will always breed coloured lambs?
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Hi Remy, yes your Zwartbles ram will have brown offspring with a white ewe, these offspring in turn if put to a white ram will have 50% white lambs and 50% black/brown lambs! The first cross tends to be all brown with the white Z markings, sometimes some snow flakes on their heads. We keep one or two crossbred ewes in our flock and they go back to a Zwartbles tup, their lambs can be all black or have the Z markings, we had 2 3/4bred twin ewe lambs born this April with perfect Z markings!
ps for the OP these 2 ewe lambs are for sale and very striking with friendly natures!
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Hmm, will be interesting to see what Zwartbles x lambs will produce with my brown Ryeland ram, and also purebreds! The Ryeland has produced some really good quality meaty lambs, so given that the Zwartbles is a large meaty sheep I may get some good commercial stock - although, it's the bias against brown sheep I'm up against at market .. :-\ , still a rarity!
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Hi Remy, lambing always interesting with coloured breeds! Hopefully you should get some nice purebred lambs, we kept a triplet brother to your ram and used him last year on a couple of ewe lambs and have been very pleased with his 4 nicely marked offspring, he has been in with a lot more ewes this time! Always interesting to see how the crossbreds turn out too.
Which market to your take your lambs to Remy? I spoke to one farmer who breeds commercially and bought a purebred tup from us a few years ago, she uses him on her texel ewes, so first cross are all brown and then puts a texel to those ewes, who go to have 50% black and 50% white lambs, when she took the first group to Shrewsbury market they said it would be better to put the black lambs in a seperate pen rather than sell them mixed in a pen. She actually got £10/head more the pen of black lambs compared to the white lambs, all 3/4 texel 1/4 zwartbles!
Sorry OP going a bit off topic, I hope you have managed to source a nice brown ewe for your wife.
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Thanks for all the replies.
I hvave enquired about an ad on preloved for some dorper x southdowns, they have the southdown fleece and wooly face buty a nice chocolate colour.
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Certainly with Shetlands, white 'covers' all other colour combinations.
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Im not sure about that....:-)
Sheila Shetland sheep with her twins Handsome and Gretel. Sheila is all white tho she does have a couple of black eyes, does that make a difference? Tup was moorit.
(http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o405/lachlanandmarcus/shetlandlambs.jpg)
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Another option would be Balwens. Small, hardy, and easy to handle.
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LM, the black eyes are the difference. It means she's got the 'spotted' genes and it seems as though the tup had one, which was hidden by his 'solid coat colour' gene.
What I know of Shetland genetics is that there are three 'places' for genes. Place 1 can have in it these genes, roughly in order of dominance - ie if you've got one higher up the list it'll cover over one lower down: white, grey, katmoget/gulmoget, other (non-agouti officially). The next place has genes for either black or brown - black is dominant. And the next place has genes for spotted or whole coat, whole coat is dominant.
So your white ewe's genes, despite her looking white, are probably: 2 x other, black and (black or brown) 2 x spotted. It's just that the black has been restricted to round her eyes, by the spotted gene.
And the tup will have been: 2 x other, 2 x brown, whole coat + spotted
So you've got lambs who are 2 x other, black + brown, 2 x spotted.
Hence their seriously cute socks and crowns ;D
Mind you, I've got a ewe whose lambs don't fit the above - it's never as simple as it seems with genetics!
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Which market to your take your lambs to Remy? She actually got £10/head more the pen of black lambs compared to the white lambs, all 3/4 texel 1/4 zwartbles!
Sorry OP going a bit off topic, I hope you have managed to source a nice brown ewe for your wife.
I've just realised who you are now, lol ;D . Yes Shrewsbury, well that will be interesting then, I'll keep you posted :) BTW Tas is a fence jumper and has had to be confined to a field with a thick hedge as well as stock fencing ::)
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Yes really surprising re the black lambs, from memory they were all at a heavy weight too, close to 50kgs I think, so keep thinking we should take our last group of heavy boys up to Shrewsbury, as they won't like them in our local market. The lambs would obviously have had the texel conformation which is what the butchers like, but I wonder if the zwartbles blood in them stopped them going over fat at the higher weight. Interesting to see how you get on in due course.
Sorry to hear Tas has learnt to jump, sounds like he has been very keen to get at the ewes? Hope he settles down once he is back in with the tups and the ewes are all settled, unfortunately they don't forget once they have learnt to jump, we have had a couple learn to jump hurdle gates but not stock fences fortunately. His brother has a super temperament, a really softy, I hope Tas has this too.