The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: SheepCrazy! on November 23, 2012, 07:23:15 pm
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Hi
I just wondered if anyone would like to sign the E petition set up by Compassion in World farming to stop the live export of sheep from Ramsgate as more cruelty has been reported.
Now don't get me wrong I breed sheep, I eat lamb, and have fat lambs for the butcher and for my freezer. But I don't agree that the sheep should suffer in transit or at slaughter and these European slaughterhouses have very different standards to ours. 40 lambs have been recently culled due to injury in transport to the boat as the UK lorry was declared unfit for the road.
Surely it would be better to slaughter the animals here humanely by the Brits helping sustain jobs in abattoirs, butchers, processors than shipping them off to the continent live. Please vote for export on the hook not hoof!
Even if you don't want to sign please read the articles and at least be aware of the situation. Knowledge is the key to a better future for us and our animals
Thanks, all the info is at Compassion in World Farming and The Guardian news paper.
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Hi where is the e patition as i would like to sign
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Hi
The petition is on the Compassion in World Farming website www.ciwf.org.uk (http://www.ciwf.org.uk) or their Facebook page! There is also a new article in The Guardian online.
Thanks for signing and please share the link :sheep:
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Signed and shared - hope it does some good :fc:
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Signed too. Hope they take some notice!
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Here's the actual petition page (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/42002) (it took a bit of finding - more people are likely to sign if they have a direct link to it.)
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Sorry I won't be signing it. There is a lot of nonsense on that site and no valid reasons there to ban live exports.
There are some excellent threads over on the British Farming Forum if you would like to see a balanced view.
http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=52822&highlight=live+exports (http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=52822&highlight=live+exports)
http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=60992&highlight=live+exports (http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=60992&highlight=live+exports)
http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=73964&highlight=live+exports (http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=73964&highlight=live+exports)
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I find that the CIWF does have quite a lot of stuff that veers towards the 'sentimental'.
However, I can't see any justification for taking animals on long journeys, when they could be slaughtered near where they were reared and transported as meat. Presumably meat minds less!
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The difficulty lies in the fact tha all the continental buyers want the meat on the hoof and not on the hook. If they can't have it live, they would rather not have it.
A lot of lightweight lambs from mountain breeds and upand areas are sold for the export market as buyers in the UK don't want them as they don't meet supermarker specifications. They take them on the continent, often for barbeuing whole in the same way as a hog roast.
As a farmer with a mountain breed in an upland area, it is highly likely that some of my lambs end up going for export, once I have sold them through the market. I would far rather they went on the hook, but th market dicatates otherwise.
The real answer is to solve the problem at source ie development of a UK market for small mountain lambs, rather than banning the live export, which is a symptom of the lack of a UK market.
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But surely banning live exports will force a change in trade patterns!
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as I understand it, the animals were culled due to a collossal RSPCA cock-up.
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Hi
In reply, thank you to SallyintNorth for posting the link you're a better computer whiz than me.
Si-mate I respect you're decision note to vote, in regards to the Ciwf site there will always be nonsense on these sites after all the world is run by propaganda and well worded speeches.
Even if the ciwf site verges on the sentimental they are the people who set up the petition to ban live exports and that is what you are voting for, hence the link to their website.
There is a lot of information out there and generally most people if truly intrigued or disgusted or even interested will look further, than the direction first pointed in.
I personally agree with VSS that the reason for the trade is the lack of a market in the UK, due to lack of interest from the supermarket and consumer. The question is how do we build up the market reduce imports, reduce the cost of raising lambs, reduce the price of British lamb and feed ourselves. ( sounds simple :excited: )
I read, in the Farmers Weekly, that the animals were culled due to the lorry being declared unfit for purpose, as the sheep were being unloaded, the deck collapsed, 6 sheep fell into the water 4 were rescued 2 drowned. The other 41 animals that were killed were therefore hurt in transit or unloading . The decision to cull the animals was taken by a DEFRA vet and and an independent vet. Although the sheep were killed ( by bolt gun) by the RSPCA inspectors on the dockside.I don't know however if the lambs/meat were used for human consumption or deposed of otherwise.
But there is to be an inquiry!
Like I said before knowledge is the key.
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I'm all in favour of strong animal welfare legislation. That said I will not be signing this petition. I worked in a lairage where we kept lambs for live export. Those lambs were vetted onto the lorry, vetted off the lorry onto the boat and then vetted again off the boat. Meanwhile here in the North East of scotland we are killing lambs from Penrith at the abbitoir in Turriff and the lorry has a back load of lambs from Nairn to go to a slaughterhouse on North Wales. Go figure!
And if we don't like animals having a wee cruise how do we shift stock from orkney and shetland or the hebridies? The trip from Ramsgate to Europe is a lot shorter than from Lerwick to the dockside on the mainland.
There was a mention of animals being injured because of the lorry not being up to scratch, what has that to do with the export? Surely the out come would have been the same travelling to the local mart?
If the transport induces fear and stress above acceptable (and low) levels then all legitimate and legal action should be taken but In the case of live export the levels of fear and stress are no higher than shipping stock within the UK.
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Firstly, Dougal you will see some of our lambs from time to time, then! Ours go from Penrith to either Wales or Turiff. Although both are long journeys - 4 hours + - we prefer this to selling through the ring as there's less standing about and we're sure of their destination and handling.
Sometime I'd love to hear you views on whether it ever will be possible for the slaughterhouses to give us kill sheets with our EID number against each lamb...
But back on topic, I had thought about the shipping of livestock from Orkney and Shetland too, and just assumed that the appropriate exceptions would be included should the ban on live export ever come to the point of being legislation.
My worries about live export from mainland British ports to continental ones include that animals could be headed to slaughter in abattoirs which do not have such high standards of animal welfare as our own.
Plus, except in cases such as the outer islands, I do not see the need for sea crossings and would prefer that they were not subjected to it. Having seen the cattle containers on Orkney, which are spectacular - Cattle Hilton or what! - I can hardly believe it to be either cheaper or more environmentally friendly to ship live animals than to ship deadstock in refrigerated containers.
It would be completely unmanageable to have legislation which covered an animal's overall journey from farm to slaughter - even if they came up with some it would be far too easy to get around - but that's really what's wanted. We see sheep brought down to Longtown on a Wednesday evening, will have been some hours in a wagon already (and some will have been ferried from Ireland or from Scottish islands as part of that), will stand about all night and most of Thursday, a bit of exercise going through the ring, back to standing about, many don't get picked up that day so wait until Friday, then who knows how much further they're to go. It's quite possible that some animals will be travelling and standing about for 5 or 6 days before they get slaughtered, without adding another sea crossing to their itinerary.
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There are rules and regs for exporting live animals - they just need to be adhered to. I can't imagine the buyers of these animals would want to receive stock that has been stressed and injured because that will devalue it.
But I think we should be aiming not to have to export them. We in the UK need to eat our own produce and not import it from elsewhere, that way we wouldn't need to export those animals. This applies to lots of foods - meat, fish, fruit, veg etc.
A consumer attitude re-adjustment is what is needed.
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I want live export to stop because when things go wrong, there is nothing we can do.
www.abc.net.au/4corners (http://www.abc.net.au/4corners)
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I won't be signing because I object to you're joining the forum just to push you own views.
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I agree with Moleskins, I don't read this forum to be inundated with petition requests. Perhaps they can be put in a different section?
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To be fair the post had a pretty clear title - therefore you have the choice not to read :thinking:
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To be fair the post had a pretty clear title - therefore you have the choice not to read :thinking:
Quite. I don't mind people posting info on petitions; there are quite a few regulars who do it from time to time and I don't hold it against them! If anyone started to inundate us inappropriately I'm sure the moderators would take some action.
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I breed sheep, I keep sheep and I feel strongly about this subject, I joined this forum to meet like minded people, I'm not hiding in the back ground with a fake name pulling strings I'm defending my views, I introduced myself with a link to my website with an email address.
This is the only e-petition I have put on this site or any other so its not a free advertising.
I have not been rude or discourteous to any other members on there views on the subject I have simply replied to postings on the topic.
I suggest If you don't want to see this post at the top of the sheep page you stop replying on it.
I only reply to this post if someone posts on it.
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I'm not signing because I think the export of live sheep from Britain to Europe does not pose a welfare risk, any more than transporting within the british isles and it is an important market for a net exporter of sheep (ie the UK).
European abbotoirs have similar regs to us and the exchange of genetics with Europe in breeding programmes may be useful to our industry.
The 'Pakistan' incident that you posted a link to is concerning, but not for a country that doesn't export to the middle/far east - ie us. Its the Austrailans problem and they should deal with it.
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I wouldn't drive myself to Madrid or Milan from London. It's a hideous journey, but then I wouldn't drive to Turriff either and that's only half as far.
Yes I have eaten a whole leg of lamb in Spain but if it's likely have come from Dundee I shan't again. A 1500 mile drive to the abattoir is too far for me. What a splendid way to transmit new and exciting diseases quickly and efficiently
And yes, all the EU standards are the same, but the implementation and enforcement isn't.
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I'm not signing because I think the export of live sheep from Britain to Europe does not pose a welfare risk, any more than transporting within the british isles and it is an important market for a net exporter of sheep (ie the UK).
It is true that the export of British Lamb is very important to farmers. When we were unable to export our lamb in the FMD outbreak of 2007, prices for lamb fell through the floor.
However the lamb should be, and as far as I was aware until recently was, predominantly exported as meat, not as live sheep.
I suspect that the majority of the live export is in fact old ewes and tups, destined for ritual slaughter in abattoirs which do not have to comply with British welfare rules.
I would love to know some facts here, so that we could all make informed decisions and not have to base our choices and actions on supposition.
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I had/have a feeling that it was light lambs destined for northern France that made up most of it.
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I had/have a feeling that it was light lambs destined for northern France that made up most of it.
I hope you're wrong, Steve! How can we find out?
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I have no idea - They tend to leave from Ramsgate if thats any help. I can't see the problem with the French having light labs though unless I have missed something.
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I had/have a feeling that it was light lambs destined for northern France that made up most of it.
I hope you're wrong, Steve! How can we find out?
No, light lambs definately go for export.
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From the NSA today
"Farmers involved in the live export of lambs at the current time report that 45kg ram lambs were making €120 (£96) per head in Holland last week and high demand for store lambs was pushing prices around £20 higher than in the UK."
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I had/have a feeling that it was light lambs destined for northern France that made up most of it.
I hope you're wrong, Steve! How can we find out?
No, light lambs definately go for export.
Yes, I know that, but I was told they were slaughtered here and shipped as meat.
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Iv'e been told all this year that the light lamb trade ( 28-32kg live ) had collapsed due partly to the weather and lack of finish on the lambs , partly due to the traditional buyers Greece/Spain/Italy all in financial trouble . Holland has been buying store lambs to finish for many years .