The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: colliewoman on October 08, 2012, 08:19:00 pm
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:o :o :o
shocking eh?
I went in for some bits and they had reduced their Hovis wholemeal bread to 15p a loaf :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I bought 30 for the piggies :pig: :pig:
Bargain ;D
Considering I'm normally bitching about how they don't have much wheat free stuff, then buy a mountain of wheaty piggy goodness ;D
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Love it :thumbsup: :thumbsup: always on the look out for a discount on the lettuce for the ducks - their treat - iceberg, thinly shredded, starting about now - best be on the look out
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Great bargain ! I never get to a Tescos at the right time to get the bargains as usualy only in town during the day
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Top bargain :thumbsup: , wish our Co-op was a bit better on that front. last week they had about 20 odd loaves of warburtons on the discounted shelf, normally retailing at £1.35/loaf but they'd only discounted them to 99p! If they'd made them cheaper like Tesco price i'd have bought the lot too as it is they probably all went in the skip out the back! :( I once asked the manager if he could let me know when they were getting shot of their bread so i could buy it at say 20p a loaf but he said he wasn't allowed to discount it that cheap, surely some sale is better than none?
Mandy :pig:
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Great deal. :thumbsup:
Generaly I buy the tesco value loaves at 49p each. All the animals seem to love it and if I run out of bread myself I share theirs ;D
Sally
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Top bargain :thumbsup: , wish our Co-op was a bit better on that front. last week they had about 20 odd loaves of warburtons on the discounted shelf, normally retailing at £1.35/loaf but they'd only discounted them to 99p! If they'd made them cheaper like Tesco price i'd have bought the lot too as it is they probably all went in the skip out the back! :( I once asked the manager if he could let me know when they were getting shot of their bread so i could buy it at say 20p a loaf but he said he wasn't allowed to discount it that cheap, surely some sale is better than none?
Mandy :pig:
:innocent: :innocent: :innocent:
Apparently Coop are the only peeps who don't lock their skips or put anything nasty in them to taint the 'rubbish' :innocent: :innocent: :innocent:
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:innocent: :innocent: :innocent:
Apparently Coop are the only peeps who don't lock their skips or put anything nasty in them to taint the 'rubbish' :innocent: :innocent: :innocent:
Nods as good as a wink ;) will check that out :innocent:
mandy :pig:
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ok cat amongst the pigeons here. You are not allowed to buy from a bread etc from a supermarket and then give it to the pigs.
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Really?? That's a bit of a kicker ???
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ok cat amongst the pigeons here. You are not allowed to buy from a bread etc from a supermarket and then give it to the pigs.
Thats what I understood too - nor to chickens, sheep, any livestock.
Even if the bread itself is in theory veggie, the processing takes place in facilities which regularly use animal products, sometimes on the same production line. So only unprocessed waste raw food can be fed without a special licence (eg spent brewery products have one, cos they can prove the single process is uncontaminated throughout).
Its up to peeps what they do, but afaik that's the law.
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Poo ::) seeings as I am Mrs wheat intolerant.... Does anyone want some bread? :roflanim:
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then why on my bags of feed does it list by products of confectionery, bakery & pastry industry! Surely pastry uses lard, confectionery gelatin etc plus every A,E,U number that they're allowed to!
mandy :pig:
ps playing devils advocate, know about the bread thing but jam sandwiches are sometimes the only way to get meds into my larger pigs! ;D
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I thought that as long as the bread didn't pass through MY kitchen I was ok. Although not that it matters to me now as the bread is only going to my ducks and geese, none of which are for food.
There was a thread some while back in the pig section where we talked about getting food from supermarkets and I am sure that someone with experience said it was ok to give supermarket food because they have their own food handling systems which have been ok'd. Is this not correct?
Sally
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The Defra regulation states:
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The fed ban extends to the feeding of catering waste to farmed animals. Catering waste is defined as 'all waste food, including used cooking oil, originating in restaurants, catering facilities and kitchens, including central kitchens and household kitchens'.
"It is illegal to feed farmed animals catering waste that contains or has been in contact with animal by-products (http://animalhealth.defra.gov.uk/managing-disease/animalbyproducts/index.htm)as this is a potential source of disease. 'Farmed animals' includes any pet animals that belong to a farmed species, such as pet pigs, goats and poultry.
Catering waste includes food waste kitchens, including domestic kitchens, retailers, food factories, distribution warehouses etc. that contains or has been in contact with animal by-products (such as raw eggs, meat, fish products). The ban includes the use of Used Cooking Oils (UCOs) originating in restaurants, catering facilities and kitchens, including central kitchens and household kitchens."
I guess the query arises whether you can guarantee/satisfy yourself that supermarket surplus fulfils this. It might - but Im not sure how an individual could be sure of what happens in the process lines. The animal feed people can, as they are doing it on a wholesale basis so can inspect the specific production lines etc, or else get the waste from a point in the process they know to be 'clean' which isnt used for any non veggie products etc. I think they do also have to get approval too so there may be an official check on the production facility too. ie the OK would be for specific products from specific supermarket production lines.
In practice to give bread bought in the normal way and which states all veggie ingredients and which doesnt have any warning stating (as some veggie products do) 'may have been made in a production process where animal products are used' MIGHT be enough to convince the inspectors that you are following the rules. It depends whether they had a bad day or want to make an example out of someone, as I dont think it has been test-cased.
Certainly anything 'skip surfed' could not comply as it would be highly possible it could be contaminated with prohibited products whether apparent or not.
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But the bread I bought isn't waste food and states clearly on it 'suitable for vegetarians'.
I can understand the waste food regs, but bought food that has been nowhere near my kitchen?
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CW, I'm with you on this one.
Sally
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It may be fine to feed it - the packaged nature of it and 'suitable for veggies' may be enough, as I put in my post.....
Personally, if I was going to be doing it regularly, I would (for my own peace of mind ) be checking with defra type peeps as they must have been asked this question before and I would want to cover myself, but thats cos Im Henny Penny and the sky might fall in :-DDD.
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And I now have a new OCD trigger :roflanim:
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I understood that you could buy bread from a shop and feed it to your pigs as long as it did not pass through your kitchen :-\
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I'm not sure that those regs are applicable. I remember Tony Yorke describing how he had a deal with his local wait rose to pick up all their old stuff. He would bring along his trailer, load up. The deal was, take all or nothing, so it did involve some sorting at his end.
I approached my local coop about it years ago but they had yet to get an official line on what they wanted to do with all their waste, that they had to pay for to be disposed. I'm going to try again soon.
Our nearby Lavenham coop branch has disgracefully started to LOCK their bins to stop people raiding them. If people are that desperate then it is ridiculous that so much should go to waste. nearby Morrisons sells loaves for 9p. We used to take loads of them until I was told that these discounted products are really needed by some people In the town. Tough times for lots of people.
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This is from the current legislation:
THE FOLLOWING APPLIES TO ONLY CERTAIN FORMER FOODSTUFFS from premises such as bakers, supermarkets, retail stores, crisp manufacturers and confectioners (although not from kitchens and restaurants based on these premises). Food items which can be recycled for use in farm animal feed include:
baked goods (bread, cakes, pastry and biscuits), vegetables, pasta, chocolate, sweets, and other products, such as breakfast cereals, which may contain rennet or melted fat, milk, milk products, flavourings, egg, honey, and gelatine of non-ruminant origin (not from pigs or poultry) - provided these items don't constitute the main ingredient. They must not contain - and must not have been in contact with - raw eggs, meat, fish and products or preparations derived from, or incorporating, meat or fish.
milk, milk products provided they are not included in final products for general sale as farm animal feed i.e. can only be distributed to keepers registered on the milk register administered by the Scottish Government.
eggs and egg products can only be sent for farm animal feeding from food factories (or from rendering plants) and not from retail premises or supermarkets.
Baked goods can be turned into feed providing the criteria above are met. This involves the retailer complying with HACCP and have specific procedures to ensure the separation of meat products from the baked good etc.
Unless your local supermarket operates such a system, then it is probably illegal to feed baked goods purchased there to your livestock.
Sue
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I'd still argue that bought bread is not a 'former' food stuff. The supermarkets DO have strict procedures in place to prevent cross contamination, and so do the initial bakers who labeled it 'suitable for vegetarians'.
Every single piece of legislation I can find relates to 'former foodstuff' or 'waste product'.
An in date, purchased wholemeal loaf is most definitely either.
I am going to ring tomorrow, they kept cutting me off today ::)
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I'd still argue that bought bread is not a 'former' food stuff
As far as DEFRA is concerned, "former foodstuff" is food originally intended for human consumption. It's typically out of date food, broken biscuits etc. (as opposed to "catering waste"), but best of luck arguing that it doesn't count because it was in date - not something I would fancy testing in court.
Such food isn't absolutely banned from feeding to livestock but you really have to be able to demonstrate that there's absolutely no chance whatsoever of there having been any risk of contamination:
However, there are some circumstances where, providing premises e.g. bakers, supermarkets, crisps manufacturers, confectioners (but not from kitchens and restaurants) are able to demonstrate that they have Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points (HACCP) procedures in place to ensure that there is no possibility of the material intended to be fed to livestock being contaminated by meat or most other products of animal origin, it may be acceptable for the material to originate on the same premises
[/size]So, if your supermarket is able and willing to provide you with documentation showing that it [/size]has all the procedures in place, the authorities may accept that it's OK for you to feed it to your pigs.
Provided that it never goes anywhere near your kitchen first though, of course. Unpack it there along with the rest of your shopping and you're immediately illegal anyway.
'suitable for vegetarians'
I don't know about former foodstuffs but, for catering waste, "it's from a strictly vegetarian kitchen" carries no weight at whatsoever - it's still illegal.
Maximum sentence is two years inside.
Another consideration is nutritional value. It may be cheap belly-fill but it was pointed out in a posting a while back that such foods aren't going to be optimally nutritious.
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For a couple of pet pigs I was thinking more of a cheap treat :D
At least I don't have to worry about stuff coming through my kitchen! I don't have one in my truck ;D
If I can actually get through to someone on the phone tommorrow I am going to ask and shall report back post haste ;)
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[quote author=Blackmyre link=topic=28202
Maximum sentence is two years inside.
This is needing to be enforced, then we will maybe stop all this wind and urine about feeding unsuitable food to pigs. The rules and regulations pertaining to keeping pigs are clear and distinct and should be understood by all pig keepers before the pigs arrive on their premises. I for one would not be very happy if my animals were wiped out because somebody had not taken the time to get up to speed on the rules and regulations, a very good friend of ours had their herd wiped out in the last outbreak of F&M, years of breeding and selection gone in less than an hour. Get real and have an understanding for other livestock keepers. :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:
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I hope the :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: isn't aimed at me?
I have not risked other livestock keepers by purchasing perfectly good bread. And I'm sorry but no the regulations aren't clear to everyone as this post has shown. I am not the only person who has read the reg to mean differently to someone else. I am however trying my best to find out.
I though I was clear on the regulations, I certainly wouldn't have bought the stuff if I thought I was breaking the law.
But as I said, I am ringing tomorrow so will hopefully have a definite answer one way or the other :thumbsup:
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For a couple of pet pigs I was thinking more of a cheap treat :D
Understood. The posting about nutritional value was an interesting one - it made the point that getting pigs to market weight using sub-optimal feed will take longer, so that has to be factored in to the equation when considering how cheap it is. It's a different matter for pets, of course.
The regulations don't differentiate between "pets" and otherwise, by the way. I think you probably know that, but I thought I'd mention it for the benefit of anyone dropping in on this thread.
If I can actually get through to someone I am going to ask and shall report back post haste ;)
I hope you won't be stirring up a hornet's nest, but good luck and please do report back.
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Nah, I get that in the eyes of the law there are no such things as pet pigs and I have all my different animal feeds kept completely separately etc etc
I'm just trying to get my head round the legalities :thinking:
Someone will tell me soon I can't gather up the windfall apples for them, then the girls will get cross ;D ;D :pig: :pig:
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I hope you won't be stirring up a hornet's nest, but good luck and please do report back.
I guess I can't get into trouble for asking the question?
The bread is still sitting in the shed waiting for a definite answer I haven't fed it yet cos of the replies here :( [size=78%]. I feel a trip to the local duck pond coming up cos by the time this is settled I will have a good crop of penicillin[/size] :roflanim:
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I hope you won't be stirring up a hornet's nest, but good luck and please do report back.
I guess I can't get into trouble for asking the question?
The bread is still sitting in the shed waiting for a definite answer I haven't fed it yet cos of the replies here :( . I feel a trip to the local duck pond coming up cos by the time this is settled I will have a good crop of penicillin :roflanim:
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CW it is not aimed specifically at you, it is just there is so much written on this forum, that can be misread and if people that are new to pigs could be breaking the law by there misinterpretation of the rules and regulations. It is meant to be a font of knowledge and assistance, not how can we bend the rules to suit a few individuals that cannot see further than the nose on their face. I have been following the various threads about this on this forum and i am sitting fuming at how irresponsible a few are on this subject.
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The rules and regulations pertaining to keeping pigs are clear and distinct and should be understood by all pig keepers before the pigs arrive on their premises. I for one would not be very happy if my animals were wiped out because somebody had not taken the time to get up to speed on the rules and regulations
As Colliewoman points out, the regulations aren't all that clear - there's scope for confusion, at the very least. Some rules are perhaps a bit OTT when it comes to smallholder-scale anyway, but I think we have to accept "one size fits all" regulations sometimes.
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CW it is not aimed specifically at you, it is just there is so much written on this forum, that can be misread and if people that are new to pigs could be breaking the law by there misinterpretation of the rules and regulations. It is meant to be a font of knowledge and assistance, not how can we bend the rules to suit a few individuals that cannot see further than the nose on their face. I have been following the various threads about this on this forum and i am sitting fuming at how irresponsible a few are on this subject.
Just checking, thank you :-*
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I guess I can't get into trouble for asking the question?
Nope - but you could get yourself on "their" radar. A visit or two could be a useful source of advice and information... or the start of a real pain in the parts!
The bread is still sitting in the shed waiting for a definite answer
Highly commendable, especially as the real health risk (as opposed to strict legality) is probably negligible. But "definitive answer"? I'm not sure such a beast exists - many of these rules are at the whim of interpretation by individual officials until tested in court.
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I guess I can't get into trouble for asking the question?
Nope - but you could get yourself on "their" radar. A visit or two could be a useful source of advice and information... or the start of a real pain in the parts!
my thoughts too blackmyre ;)
when we sell weaners to new pig keepers we always go through the do's and don'ts of feeding pigs some seem surprised they cant feed pigs anything our advice to them is you can't afford to feed them you should not be buying them, pig feed is expensive and will get more so over the next few months but the fine for breaking the rules is more so.
and if you are lucky enough to find a source of waste food suitable for livestock you may well find you need a waste carriers licence to collect it.
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Agreed re: the points being made being made more for the benefit of people thinking of getting pigs and thinking they can feed them any old scraps they couldnt finish at dinnertime, rather than so much the bread scenario. Its def not trying to criticise you OP - as the bread may be ok, it's certainly borderline and the regs are vague.
I would ask the powers that be if its ok to feed- but thats because I always prefer to know where I stand and not have a nagging worry - and also if theres a disease outbreak I want to know Im squeaky clean.
I do also want to avoid a situation where smallholders are seen to be 'flouting' the rules and presenting a higher disease risk than big factory type operations and given the extra per head costs of inspecting all the thousands of smallholdings, the government trying even harder to discourage smallholding more than they do already, using the talisman of disease protection. (which ignores the fact that most outbreaks have come from large scale factory farms or government facilities but hey since when have facts mattered...)
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lachlanandmarcus, what do you mean by government discouraging smallholding. On the rare occasions I have had dealings with them they have been very helpful and far from discouraging. Why does everyone always blame the government for everything.
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lachlanandmarcus, what do you mean by government discouraging smallholding. On the rare occasions I have had dealings with them they have been very helpful and far from discouraging. Why does everyone always blame the government for everything.
have the same view as you BB never felt discouraged in fact our local AHO has been in touch asking for advice on matters i feel they work with you if you are willing to work with them, i also feel they have a up hill struggle at times with people that just want to flount the regs for whatever reason, lots of examples on most forums the favoirites are feed and ear tags (or the lack of tags) if everyone stuck to the rules life would be so much easier.
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I am of the same opinionion as BB and KJA . If there is discouragement it is from the commercial side of the industry as they have the biggest clout. And are just waiting for us to put a foot wrong .
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lachlanandmarcus, what do you mean by government discouraging smallholding. On the rare occasions I have had dealings with them they have been very helpful and far from discouraging. Why does everyone always blame the government for everything.
I dont always blame the government for everything !! Nor do I have any issues with the local inspectors etc. I dont think I have said that I do?
I DO yes however have an issue with successive government AND EU policies which fail to promote animal welfare, free range and local food production, For example the willingness to allow most of the smaller abbatoirs to close, the farce over food labelling as UK when it is anything but, the double standards that have allowed foreign pork producers to flout welfare rules when we are gold plating, the farce of sheep EID tagging overkill when sheep havent been the source of any of the major human risk disease outbreaks etc etc etc, the lack of a policy to try to increase the amount of food production and the throwing of dairy farmers to the lions re TB eradication.
So I have no issues with the people who implement the rules, but yes, I do have an issue with governments which I think would be quite happy to see 100% of our food produced abroad as long as it was cheap and who would happily regulate smallholders out of existence unthinkingly. They dont have to do it directly to do it. If they allow all the abbatoirs to close within reach, the cost of transport becomes untenable. If they make the rules on feed so stringent as to mean only purchased feed is viable, no waste feed (unless you get an exemption as a megabusiness) then the costs of feed become unworkable. If you make tagging an extra expense, increase inspection fees at abbatoirs etc then the costs of raising rare breeds dont make sense, esp when there are extra fees for older animals eg sheep over 12 months having extra material removed, rare breeds are kept for over 12 months, commercial ones arent.
All this may be as a result of being in the pockets of big business but if so it is several governments of all different hues who are the same. They just want cheap poor quality food to keep the masses quiet, and it works :-(
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You are never going to change the fact that food has to be produced on a massive scale and as cheaply as possible. There are people who can't afford the luxury of eating pampered rare breed pigs, cows or whatever. You cannot feed the masses with out type of product that is a fact. We on here are in a privileged position to be able to rear what we eat unfortunately others aren't but that will never change.
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LM quite a bit of complaints in your post. Governments come and go, but the advisers stay and control.The EU control every aspect of our lives it is there policy's of improvement, that has seen the closures of the abattoirs. It still costs money to run them ,and that is the main reason why they are closing .At one time every large town had a slaughterhouse .And before that every butcher slaughtered out the back of there shop. You just cant force people to run a business at a loss, because it would be an inconvenience to a few.
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And the official answer.........
drum roll please........
They don't know! Lovely lady said she could dig in and find out for me, but she really didn't know and had never been asked before :D
I said not to worry and I would just assume for now that I can't. i'll go get em a couple of sack of carrots instead ;)
Thankies to all who have replied though, It has been very interesting :thumbsup: