The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: Alistair on September 06, 2012, 10:56:17 am
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Just to set the scene, I have three lovely dogs, a gsx, a border collie and big loveable George, he's a saluki x greyhound lurcher.
George was found in a hedge at about 1yr old, 1/3rd body weight and covered in wounds, he then spent 8 months in kennels, was generally ignored as he was basically uncontrollable. I've had in for 18months now in which time he's filled out, grown a coat, learnt to be a dog, and learnt basic commands, sit, stay, lie down, recall and so on.
He has in this time not shown any sign of hard wired chasing instinct for anything other than other dogs when he's playing.
Until now. The switch has been flipped, he just set off from a beach after a sheep some half a mile away or so, not called sight hounds for nothing, got to the sheep and it ran off, got away, couldn't get him back for a couple of minutes though.
Now I'm not a novice with dogs and dog training, I used to compete in obedience competitions, I'm not a novice with lurchers, this is my 4th, and I've always taken rescue dogs with problems.
My feeling is that's it, the switch has been flipped, the instinct is there, he shouldn't EVER be let off lead in open areas where he might encounter livestock again, this time I was lucky he didn't catch it.
Have any of you had experience with trying to accustom lurchers to livestock, not sure what approach to take, he sees sheep now and that's it, he's trying to chase, I'm stopping him on the lead and going through the calm down process taking about 20 mins, and then set off walking again, cople of seconds later he's off again, spent yesterday afternoon doing this and walked about 1/3rd mile!
Both other dogs have no issue with livestock, they've always been around sheep etc
Any ideas gratefully recieved
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I think your instinct is right. :(
Unless you want the risk of him to be shot and a bill for damages as well, I would say a lead or long line is the only safe option.
I say that as owner of a non livestock safe dog and the owner of a flock of sheep (our only solution was a 4 acre 7 foot fence, other than that he is on the lead and in the house there is a built in dog gate set back so if I open the front door there is no chance of him getting out. He had 3 weeks of residential training and they couldnt do anything about the 'recall once see/smell/hear livestock thing' kicked in.
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Yup, It is a shame, but at least he's got a happy home now.
I still need to get him calmer though even on the lead, that's just lots of time and effort, but he's worth it
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Breaking an instinct is very difficult, and sometimes impossible. He may never be able to control that will to 'chase' with being a lurcher. Just trying your best as you are doing, teaching him a strong recall and teaching him to 'leave' anything he has interest in ( starting with basic leaving of treats and toys on command ) may help. But you may never have a totally trustworthy dog around livestock :-\
It is months and months of hard work and consistency is essential. You can only do your best, by trying to overcome it, or at least reducing the instances when he would run, by putting in the control you have worked on. Wish you good luck and hope it does pay off.
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Have you any friends with sheep? Ask for help from a tup that will see him off or a ewe with a lamb at foot - take him in a [pen with teh sheep on a line making sure you have an easy exit in case the sheep get stroppy. It should make him wary of sheep. you can do this with other farm animals too. You won't stop him chasing rabbits etc now except if you use an e-collar on him. If you decide to go down that route, the collar needs to be on him without being activated for at least two weeks, and without him being reprimanded in any way when he is wearing it. Then take him to an area where he can chase but you can catch him - and zap him the second he goes to chase.
I haven't ever used one of these but they have their uses and a friend did stop one of mine leaping fences and escaping using his own e-collar.
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What a shame. Poor George, poor you.
Like yourself, I had dogs for years, nearly always rescues. In my case mostly GSD Collie mixes, just the one odd lurcher-type, with a lot of hound in her. Obedience, agility, etc. Quite often got brought 'problem' dogs to help, and from about 8 years old I was always glad to train anyone's dog as I loved doing it so much, so I had a reasonable breadth of experience.
Back then, before I was a farmer so all the dogs were pets, not workers, I found the only way to manage the collie types around sheep was to teach them that looking at sheep was naughty. Once they've 'locked on', the ears stop working and you won't get them back till they're ready. So I did training in areas where I knew there were sheep but they weren't visible all the time - gorsey moorland, for instance - with dogs under close control (if not on lead then walking to heel; always on lead in early stages of training.) Being taller, I would see the sheep before the dogs, so I'd be ready. The instant the dog saw the sheep, reprimand, pull 'em away. (You'll know it really does have to be the very instant they see them; a split second later and they're mentally gone!) When dog is walking quietly at heel not looking at sheep, lots of praise. Repeat repeat repeat repeat. And again and again and again. Eventually, all my dogs would see sheep and turn back to me - looking at sheep nasty, back to mum good. You would still get the odd 'moment' - when a dog surprises a sheep (and itself) and the sheep runs, the instinct is too strong and most dogs will give chase. But in normal walking through open farmland where the sheep are visible in the distance, I would have nice controlled dogs walking nearby to me.
All of which gave me a good laugh when I took dear old Horace (long-haired GSD x collie rescue dog; had been a very talented rounder-upper of sheep on arrival ::)) on my first sheep farm WWOOF. The orphan lambs ran about at liberty and of course came to greet the new arrivals. Horace turned and ran away, the lambs pursued, Horace knew it was naughty to look and kept turning away, they kept trying to come up and touch noses - bless that dog! :roflanim:
I don't know if that approach will work with your George; I guess it depends on how much it matters to him to please you. With collie / GSD types, you get that as a given, so you can use praise and displeasure to guide behaviour quite readily.
Another tactic which the police dog trainers use (at least, the ones I've met do), is to give the dog an obsession with chasing something else, usually a ball. Really get the dog totally obsessed with the toy (relatively easy with collie types, they're OCD out the box!), and keep that toy with you at all times. When you know sheep may be about, keep the dog playing with the toy.
And my only other suggestion is to have a friend with a video camera with you, rename George something like 'Kenton' and (only after weaning and before tupping, of course, never at times when the sheep are vulnerable to metabolic upsets when chased) give the world some entertainment. (Just kidding!)
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Might it be a good idea to let him nab you a few rabbits so that he becomes more fixated on those? Kind of diverting his energies. One of the best 'rewards' a dog can have is when you pick up the 'prey' because then the hunt is successful - works with collies and sheep too apparently, you touching the gathered sheep is kind of 'closure' for the dog. This has also been offered as a suggestion as to why some gundogs get a bit bored with dummy work but never tire of the real thing.
However, don't take my advice straight off, Id wait for someone more 'doggy' to confirm/refute what I have said.
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Aren't electric dog collars illegal? I thought they were, at least in Wales. Have I got that wrong?
Have heard that being in with a tup, as Doganjo describes, can work. Not sure ???
I have no experience with other breeds than gundogs but have always loved greyhounds and lurchers. I took the opportunity to chat to a representative from the Greyhound Rescue recently about the suitability of keeping these on our smallholding and indeed sheep country that we live in. They seemed to say that in the case of many of these dogs(obviously some exceptions) that even if trained really well to the recall, they would not respond once they started to chase. They described the curving of the tail etc that indicated a chase was to happen. They said that for many only lead exercise was possible except in enclosed paddocks. Decided not for us.
Wish you well in sorting your lad. He is so lucky to have found you and much better to have to exercise on the lead if necessary than the life he had before.
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. This has also been offered as a suggestion as to why some gundogs get a bit bored with dummy work but never tire of the real thing.
However, don't take my advice straight off, Id wait for someone more 'doggy' to confirm/refute what I have said.
Spot on, Steve - mine will only pick up canvas dummies now if they have rabbit skins or winds on them - but Labradors don't seem to have that problem - they'll pick up anything till the coos come hame,
E-collars are not yet illegal in Scotland, Ireland and England although it's going that way - I think they are illegal in Wales.
As I said I don't use them myself but I do believe they have their uses in a case of sheep chasing. I have seen it work.
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I'm a shearer by trade!, access to tups etc ain't an issue, it's probably worth a try, I'm working tomorrow so might take him along just in case there's an opportunity. Long lead and muzzle as well.
We have been trying ball fixation, it's just a ball is less exciting than a sheep to him, the saluki side of him also gives him a very aloof demeanour, and he's a lurcher so not the sharpest pencil in the box, he was also stray for so long that that close bond may take years to properly develop, wish I'd had him from a pup.
Greyhound rescue is where a few of my previous dogs -and indeed George came from
I don't use e collars, just personally don't like them, there are water spray collars or a squirty bottle I suppose, only issue is these IMO can lead to a fear complex in future
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Aren't electric dog collars illegal? I thought they were, at least in Wales. Have I got that wrong?
I thought they had now been outlawed except for licensed practitioners. There are people who do sheep aversion training with collies; don't know of there are any offer this service for lurcher types.
Have heard that being in with a tup, as Doganjo describes, can work. Not sure ???
Some farmers tell you to try this. A vet friend of mine, with a lot of experience vetting in farming country (Yorkshire Dales) although he now has his own predominantly small animal practice in Cambs, told me never ever to do this. Far far too likely to end up with terrible injuries to the dog before you can get it to safety. He had had quite enough of trying to repair ruptured intestines and worse in dogs this had been done with, he said. (And putting dog in with ewe with lambs was worse still, he said.)
Our working collies treat the front end of sheep, particularly tups, ewes with lambs, or any horned sheep, with a great deal of respect. But they know fine well the butting bit isn't at the back end - and that's the bit a chaser likes to chase. ;)
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Knowing lurchers well, unfortunately they really don't have that same toy/ball drive as some working or pastoral breeds.
Their instinct is to chase, and it it finding something that breaks the THOUGHT of fixating BEFORE it happens.
If you can toy or ball fixate then all the better for it. If not then diverting the thought to yourself is the other method. Using food treats is one method. Give your comment to ignore ( I use 'leave it' ) and give the treat the second the dog gives eye contact.
This training is best started in the house with leaving treats or toys alone then advancing to outside once he known the meaning of it. Gradually upping the distraction to finally around sheep. Remembering big praise and whatever method you are using, the instant he looks at you. Once you have this then the length of time he is looking at you can be lengthened.
It may help, but being a lurcher it will still be hard to completely cut the chase instinct.
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SITN - Interesting. I know farmers round here talk of this method for solving sheep worrying but don't think I would feel comfortable putting my dog in that confrontational situation.
Alistair- Perhaps The Greyhound Rescue could give you some advice that is specific to your type of dog. They must have come across this many times. The person I spoke to was very helpful and the rescue may know how best to deal with problems associated with the chase instinct which is a key characteristic of these breeds. I would imagine it is very different from dealing with a gundog that has a tendency to chase for example.
Cross posted with Mammyshaz. Along the same lines I think.
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Steve/mammyshaz, sent an email to their behavioural specialist already!
Georges leave it and wait commands are outstanding already, food, toy whatever, the issue I have is that the switch gets flipped soooo very quickly it almost impossible to intervene at the precise moment it starts, the only visible sign of excitement is the tail bending up, and then he's in the zone. As this is new behaviour I'd guess there are other much subtler signs that I'm not reading yet, that'll only come with time.
I think th crux of the issue is I just need to be more exciting than anything else in his life, cue wavy arms and high pitched voice
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Spray collars are ok.....until or unless your dog, as ours did, works out that if they put up with the squirts for long enough, the reservoir WILL run out.... :o >:( and then they are no use at all!
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How about a long line?
Pop a harness on him and tie a 50 foot washing line to it. let him goon around trailing the line behind him keeping him within say 30 feet of you by calling him. If he doesn't respond you simply stamp on the line and hold it fast. They soon seem to learn that you have control no matter how far away they are!
Never do this with just a collar, an I would suggest keeping him muzzled with a basket muzzle til YOU get the hang of stamping on the line in time just in case.
With this method though, even if you don't get him 100% at least he has the freedom of the line :thumbsup:
Worked a treat on my foxhound i used to have :dog:
I would be very cautious about letting a ewe or ram teach him. My guys would do serious damage to a dog when they have their lambs, and I wouldn't fancy the persons chances much if they got in the way trying to rescue the dog :-\
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Longline and technique was how I trained him in the first place, his general recall is fine, it's just his hunting instinct has kicked in.
At the end of the day I think I might just try standing by fenced off sheep for an hour a day with him until he calms down and start a very gradual process of desensitisation.
I think he'll just have to be kept on the lead/longline when we're out near livestock end of story, I certainly can't see this process being anything other than a lifetime project.
I didn't really expect a quick fix
Ah well he's curled up asleep in the sun now, happy dog
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SITN - Interesting. I know farmers round here talk of this method for solving sheep worrying but don't think I would feel comfortable putting my dog in that confrontational situation.
See, you have to calibrate the advice according to who is giving it. If your dog's just worried a farmer's sheep, and, having apologised and paid for the damage, you ask the farmer for his/her advice on curing the behaviour in your pet dog, the farmer is much more concerned to get a solution that protects the sheep than s/he is about one that keeps your dog from harm.
And in the farming scenario, a dog which worries sheep will be a dead dog pretty soon if it doesn't stop worrying sheep. So the hard lesson by tup or mother ewe is worth trying - it might work and the dog might live.
Neither of which is how a pet owner wants to look at solving the problem!
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http://www.sheepdog-training.co.uk/worrying.html (http://www.sheepdog-training.co.uk/worrying.html) any good? I haven't worked with him though.
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Putting a dog in with a tup or ewe with lamb at foot can work, or sometimes it just makes the dog scared of a tup or ewe in a pen. Chasing a running sheep is a completely different scenario. Wouldn't it be nice if there were sheep who didn't run but turned around and ran at the dog ( one of my angora goats did this the other day to my rather interested collie cross ;) ). The idea behind e-collars is that the dog thinks the sheep is giving it the shock, dog goes towards sheep - sheep runs - activates collar. They then learn to return to owner if a sheep runs. However I know someone with lurchers who has tried this method and still her dog ran and attacked a sheep a few weeks ago. Had she taken your very responsible view of lead or long line wherever stock is around then the tragedy would not have happened. I agree entirely with your decision and his life will not be any worse for being kept on a lead where there is stock. :thumbsup: You would not be putting him through any adverse training methods which could upset your relationship and he will be safe (not to mention the sheep). :thumbsup:
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Shep, my thoughts exactly
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If you have a sighthound you have a dreadful responsibility where sheep/cats/little dogs are concerned. You just must not trust it off the lead if there is a possibility that they will chase sheep or course cats and small dogs. They will kill them!! That is a fact! I have owned and bred sighthounds for over forty years and, unless they are brought up from puppyhood with livestock/cats/toy dogs they WILL chase them if they run. In fact they will chase strange sheep etc. even if they don't bother with the ones they are used to. PLEASE don't take risks with your dog's or other people's animals lives :( :(
On another note do you know that George is not a lurcher but a "long dog". This is the term for a cross between sighthounds.
If you are interested(and my battery lasts) the difference is this.
A sighthound or a long dog when coursing a hare will follow the true line of the hare, i.e. follow it on it's course.
Someone, either by design or accident, discovered that a sighthound crossed with something that had a portion of wit, usually a border collie would have the sense to realise that if it ran across the line and intercepted the hare it would catch it. This is known as "lurching" hence "lurcher". This is excellent if you want to catch a hare or rabbit but a major fault in a coursing dog.
Nowadays, of course, we don't course hares but plastic bags on a lure. :) :)
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Thanks for that explanation about 'long dogs', Sylvia - I didn't know that :-[ . Just goes to show you are always learning. :eyelashes:
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So is it possible to train a Lurcher to be safe around livestock? I have been seriously considering getting a Lurcher type puppy as I just love them :love: we have sheep, cows and poultry :-\. I always presumed they could as I have two JRTs who are perfectly safe around our free range poultry as I was very firm with them as pups,. They even ignore the chicks but are the best ratters ever!
Sorry to hijack :-[ this thread has just made me think.
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I don't know the answer to be honest, but I DO know that in bred instinct is extremely strong - that is why we have different breeds - they were bred for different purposes. Labrador retrievers retrieve, spaniels were bred to hunt close to the gun, pointers to point, hold the game in a trance, to await the gun's presence. Blood hounds for tracking etc etc My breed is a French hunting gundog and boy are they obsessed with hunting! So I suspect a lurcher may well chase instinctively.
You can to an extent control instincts but never overcome them entirely. Due to training my girls hunt in a partnership with me, and the guns, but had they not had training they would be off self hunting. My boy does that, but a recent reminder course has helped bring him back under control.
How much training it would take would I think depend on you being consistent and the temperament of the pup.
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If I had the space, Id love a lurcher - there are so many rabbits on some of my grazings its unreal ad the warrens are all in the woods on the other side of the fence. Plus, it'd give me free dinners and dogfood.
If anyone has a whippet x bedlington going spare.... ;D
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That's fascinating, Sylvia. 'Coursing' and 'lurching' - so obvious now!
Oh, Steve - that whippet x bedlington sounds lovely. Please don't post any pics if you get one - especially if the seller has another spare bitch pup... :innocent:
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I'll have to revise everything I thought I knew
I've had 4 long dogs then :excited: my others where wolfhound x, and two deerhound crosses.
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Bedlinton x whippet is a beautiful cross and makes for a striking looking animal and if your idea is to use it for catching rabbits you couln't do much better (unless a pure-bred whippet ;) )
As for training a sighthound/longdog/lurcher with stock you must start from puppyhood, otherwise it will always be a worry. The command "Leave it!!!" is most important.
My greyhounds are too old now to bother but I can honestly say that, when young, they would stand on deer if told to "leave it" Their training must be consistent and, maybe, a bit tough though. It's hard to sublimate basic instincts.
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Bedlinton x whippet is a beautiful cross and makes for a striking looking animal and if your idea is to use it for catching rabbits you couln't do much better (unless a pure-bred whippet ;) )
Aye, I like em - not had a lurcher in years. I like that cross cos its small and you can use it for ratting as well as rabbiting. Probably not fast enough to catch hares, which means I dont get tempted, there are loads of hares round here, although I bet the keeper would be up for a bit of coursing....
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I was thinking the same, loads of rabbits round here and acres to roam on. I really like the look of that cross aswell..... Now if I could get them to catch the rabbits and leave the hens/sheep then that would be ideal :thumbsup: I would only ever have a pup here so you stand a chance of training them.
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I must admit I'd rather have a dog jabbed by an e-collar or butted by a tup than a dead one JMHO
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I completely agree Doganjo.
I would just add ... or a dog that is always on a lead or long line where it is not safe to roam. There seems to be a common thought with pet dog owners that dogs need to be free running whenever they can, and you are not a caring owner if you don't let them have this, and farmers are just there to spoil a dogs fun!
Depends very much on the dog breed whether you can do this. Bob Truman wrote in his book on working setters - a setter should be either working, training, playing in an enclosed paddock or ON A LEAD. They never stop hunting (probably much like yours Doganjo??) and a walk to them is hunting at an incredibly slow speed!! I've never owned a sight hound or long dog but it seems the same rules should be applied to them also??
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I'd agree shep, it's all about responsible ownership, trouble is sometimes you think you've responsibly let your dog off lead, I.e. no unfenced livestock, but ones escaped the enclosure, seen by your dog and that's it they're off.
My collie and gsx have both got their kennel club gold good citizen awards, I tried with George but he failed his bronze, almost impossible to fail this, but being in a village hall with 10 other dogs was just too stimulating for him, at home you'd swear he'd pass his silver award
I always think that when they're on a walk they're in pack mode, ie like wolves going hunting, they're just waiting for you, the alpha dog, to give them permission to go for it, I don't think that instinct is breed specific, it's hard wired into all dogs
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I now take my dogs to run free in deer fenced and gated woodlands planted for the purpose. There are now new ones fairly close - 10 minutes away, but until recently I've been driving 25 minutes each way for this. I only let them off lead otherwise if they are working on the shoot we are invited to, so are (supposed to be at least :innocent:) under control.
Yes, Shep, hunting is hardwired in a Brittany's head - that's what they were bred for - to Hunt, Point, [Shoot], Retrieve!
I've seen them give me a look sometimes, when a gun has missed a bird, that says 'Give me the gun and I'll do it ALL myself :roflanim:
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Oooh Doganjo can I move near you - that sounds fabulous deer fenced woodland!
Alistair sorry I wasn't meaning any criticism of you letting George off - I have had similar instances of letting my youngest off on a beach thinking how much she would enjoy running - what can go wrong?? Not thinking she would instantly head for the rabbits in the dunes :-[ . Unfortunately that pack walk thingy doesn't kick into setters till they are about 8 yrs old!!!
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Just back from a couple of hours of fun with my dogs. Hiding dummies, throwing them, and plain old hunting. Reminding them of quartering, sits to whistle, recalls by name and whistle, directioning etc - not another dog in sight - 40 acres in the first section, a heel off lead through rough mature woodlands to the next section - slightly smaller about 30 acres. Then the much loved command 'go play' - tehy never needa second bidding for that one.
Both fields used to be grazings. I guess the farmer got the money to do it from either the woodland trust or Brussels farm diversification if it's still on the go. Either way, good on 'em - saves me a fortune in petrol :innocent:
There might be some near you Shep, or Alistair - ask the Forestry commission or Community Council.
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Yes, Shep, hunting is hardwired in a Brittany's head - that's what they were bred for - to Hunt, Point, [Shoot], Retrieve!
I've seen them give me a look sometimes, when a gun has missed a bird, that says 'Give me the gun and I'll do it ALL myself :roflanim:
My Springer sat by me when we were out shooting, alternately looking at me and a squirrel, you could almost see her thinking ' what IS the matter with you. Shoot the Bloody thing!' priceless.
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Yes, Shep, hunting is hardwired in a Brittany's head - that's what they were bred for - to Hunt, Point, [Shoot], Retrieve!
I've seen them give me a look sometimes, when a gun has missed a bird, that says 'Give me the gun and I'll do it ALL myself :roflanim:
My Springer sat by me when we were out shooting, alternately looking at me and a squirrel, you could almost see her thinking ' what IS the matter with you. Shoot the Bloody thing!' priceless.
And they say dogs don't show emotion! :innocent: :innocent:
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And they say dogs don't show emotion! :innocent: :innocent:
I don't know who says that, Annie, but I know this. Whoever they are, they ain't got no dogs. ;)
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Read it in one of those animal psychology books - and they can't see in colour either. :innocent:
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Read it in one of those animal psychology books - and they can't see in colour either. :innocent:
I tink deys old books, Annie. :D
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Do ganja, they see in sepia believe it or not
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Sepia? And how do 'they' know that? :innocent:
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It's the way the cells are made up at the back of the eye. Im not sure about sepia bit know they cannot distinguish certain colours. I was advised to puppy train the scent for working trials by starting with red toys in the grass. The dog cannot distinguish red and green. He needs to use his nose not sight. But it means I can see where it is and encourage or correct when it is needed.