The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Land Management => Topic started by: smudger on May 16, 2012, 09:18:16 pm
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I seem to have a lot more than last year. Is it the horse pee making land more acidic or something else?
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lack of lime :farmer:
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Robert's right
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I have loads of buttercups but no animals grazing the field. Are they are problem?
Sally
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Not poisonous when wilted I believe, mildly when fresh (to horses). I would put more in the weed category, not ragwort. Anyway, not good to see.
Applying lime - too late now? How best to apply. very noticeable in my 3 acre field, but about to put horses and sheep on there this weekend. Other fields getting locked up for haylage though, about 11 acres. If it involves buying equipment, means it'll have to be a contractor.....going rate for spreading lime?
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lime is usually supplied and applied by a contractor normally 2-3 tons per acre takes a few applications before the pH is restored you could also do it at a ton per acre per year you can also get granules that you apply by a spinner then you need a spinner a tractor and some means of lifting the 600 kilo bag or is it a ton bag
spring summer autumn is the window of opportunity it will also require phosphate and potash and once you have feed it you will see the big difference :farmer:
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Depends if you want the view or the pasture.
Pasture tends to become more acid over time, don't ask me why, so plants which can tolerate the acidity (like creeping buttercup) will do better than those that can't. I don't know anything that grazes buttercup - it may be not be poisonous but so the stocking capacity of the pasture will fall as you lose the better quality grasses.
It's pretty easy to get acidity testing done. Samples from several holes should produce a pH of 6 to 6.5, and you will get a check on P and K too. Lower pH means acid land which you can fix by liming.
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Do they prefer wetter ground? :-\ We have buttercups in the badly drained part of a heavy clay field, but hardly any elsewhere in the field. Not in a position to tackle the drainage yet (still spending money on fencing)
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http://www.pasture4horses.com/weeds/creeping-buttercup.php (http://www.pasture4horses.com/weeds/creeping-buttercup.php)
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Know where you are coming from Bramblecote (re fencing and ££££)!!! :o
How fab is this forum - just came on to ask the same thing re more buttercups this year!!! I also seem to have more sheep sorrel and speedwell across the fields (closed down for hay at mo). Is sheep sorrel good or bad (for hay and sheep). Suspected our fields needed liming and wish we had done it spring. will have to wait till after harvest now.
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Liming is more of an autumn activity, round here anyway. A pH test will tell you how much to apply but we needed 10 tonnes last time (1 tonne per acre) and it took a contractor about 20 minutes, mostly opening gates. Would have taken me a week...
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Sorrel is good stuff - you can eat it yourself too, in salads :yum:
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Good link castle farm.
As mentioned on the link, we went for total eradication (i.e. we sprayed the fields) a couple of weeks ago, as we also have more creeping buttercup than ever; despite the fields being topped last year (this plant spreads by 'runners' so it is very hard to get rid of).
The fields are out of use now for a few weeks but every 'weed' including the docks etc are wilting nicely.
:farmer:
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Two things to say:
(a) remember, particularly if using preparations containing aminopyralid or clopyralid or similar, that any hay made from sprayed fields could still contain active ingredient, which would remain active on passing through the livestock which eat it and end up on - and killing - your vegetable garden. Always make sure that the manure resulting from the feeding of such treated grass - or from the hay or silage made from it - is put back on grassland and not where you want broadleaved plants to grow.
(b) it's early days, but I can report that we split a field infested with buttercups last year. One half was ploughed, mucked, and turnips and cabbages sown; the other half had the pigs running on it. We had a terrible non-crop of the turnips and cabbages (and no I can't be certain there was no muck from stock fed on hay made from grass which had been Grazon-ed!) but that half of the field is now full of rank grasses, reshes - and buttercups. In fact, it's more-or-less 50% creeping buttercup, just as it was before we started. The pigs' half is of course rather bare still (the pigs are still on it - I said it was early days for reporting!) but there are still docks to be seen (the pigs don't eat all of these, they can be toxic in quantity to pigs) and so far, nothing much in the way of buttercups.
I will report again!
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sally your non show of turnips and cabages was it finger and toe disease some soils just cant grow them :farmer:
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sally your non show of turnips and cabages was it finger and toe disease some soils just cant grow them :farmer:
Not sure what 'finger and toe disease' is, but BH has grown turnips and cabbages on this land in years gone by. He reckons it was just too cold and too wet after the seeds were sown; we were a little late getting them sown as it was.
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Ok - I know buttercups mean less grazing..... but I can't help liking them ::)
Anyway I have some geese now, and I think they eat buttercup roots, so perhaps a balance will be struck :thumbsup:
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sally its right name is club root :farmer:
darkbrowneggs that is some field of buttercups looks better than oil seed rape :farmer:
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Wow, someone who has more buttercups than I do. I feel a bit better now.
Sally
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Anyway I have some geese now, and I think they eat buttercup roots, so perhaps a balance will be struck :thumbsup:
Oh, do let us know if that really works! What a cracking excuse to get some geese! ;D
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(a) remember, particularly if using preparations containing aminopyralid or clopyralid or similar, that any hay made from sprayed fields could still contain active ingredient, which would remain active on passing through the livestock which eat it and end up on - and killing - your vegetable garden. Always make sure that the manure resulting from the feeding of such treated grass - or from the hay or silage made from it - is put back on grassland and not where you want broadleaved plants to grow.
(b) it's early days, but I can report that we split a field infested with buttercups last year. One half was ploughed, mucked, and turnips and cabbages sown; the other half had the pigs running on it. We had a terrible non-crop of the turnips and cabbages (and no I can't be certain there was no muck from stock fed on hay made from grass which had been Grazon-ed!) but that half of the field is now full of rank grasses, reshes - and buttercups. In fact, it's more-or-less 50% creeping buttercup, just as it was before we started. The pigs' half is of course rather bare still (the pigs are still on it - I said it was early days for reporting!) but there are still docks to be seen (the pigs don't eat all of these, they can be toxic in quantity to pigs) and so far, nothing much in the way of buttercups.
I will report again!
A good reminder for everyone re spraying.
Re ploughing v pigs, that is about what I would expect in both of those cases. Ploughing the field will have torn the roots and they will multiply that way (especially docks). Grass seed needs to be sown or the 'weeds' will take over. Then it's a case of topping constantly, or spraying, or both, depending on the severity.
Piggies are fab ground clearers.
:farmer:
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Anyway I have some geese now, and I think they eat buttercup roots, so perhaps a balance will be struck :thumbsup:
Oh, do let us know if that really works! What a cracking excuse to get some geese! ;D
Sorry Sally, but the paddock our geese short-grazed a few weeks ago now has more buttercups showing than anywhere. They don't eat dock leaves either! :(
I took a walk up a nearby hill the other day, and you can really tell which fields are ours - they're bright yellow, whilst all the neighbour's ones are lush green.
The trouble is, the land has been farmed using a mixture of organic methods and loving neglect for the last 25 years, so I really don't want to start using chemicals now (except lime for the buttercups). Any good tips on how to reduce the docks, nettles and thistles then folks?
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Spray them before flowering with a weed killer containing a 2,4-d/mcpa mix
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The trouble is, the land has been farmed using a mixture of organic methods and loving neglect for the last 25 years, so I really don't want to start using chemicals now (except lime for the buttercups). Any good tips on how to reduce the docks, nettles and thistles then folks?
Top, top and top again. If the ground is too wet to travel, learn to live with 'em or grit your teeth and use chemicals - weedwiping is less destructive than broadcast spraying.
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Ploughing or pigs will both give rise to the same problem of turning over the soil to enable the germination of all the millions of weed seeds lying dormant in the soil. We had pigs on a strip of land a couple of years ago. The rest of the field is mainly grass with a few docks. The strip where the pigs was is 90% docks where all the old seeds germinated :(
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I shall take you a photo of the meadow tomorrow. Though I say it myself it looks great. Just wish I could find someone to make small bale hay :D And my geese eat docks and also buttercup roots. :thumbsup:
When I moved back it was full of Creeping thistle and Scottish thistles plus dock from literally end to end. When I bought my first Jersey Cow I could never find her and had to walk the field till I cam across her :D
I have never used sprays, but simply top the field at the appropriate time. The old folk wisdom is that weeds cut on or near the full moon nearest Midsummer day will not reappear, and though I wouldn't take this literally, if you think about it there is sense there.
Plants with earlier seeding - such as thistles and docks tend to run up to seed at midsummer, and it is most likely to rain around a full moon.
Weeds cut then will have expended the vast majority of their energy trying to seed, and if cut probably won't have the resources for further strong growth. Anyway it worked for me.
If I wanted to be rid of the buttercups I would use lime, and seaweed meal (assuming I could get it) and if not a good mucking. But I like the mix of sorrel, trefoil, cuckoo flower and red and wild white clover etc that goes with my buttercups :D
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And my geese eat docks and also buttercup roots. :thumbsup:
Great! So now I've not only got rubbish pasture, but also defective waterfowl to worry about!! ;D
Seriously though, thanks for the tips folks, though I have to say I'm not really looking forward to repeatedly topping five acres with a strimmer.
I wonder if anybody will hire me out a :goat: or two? ;D
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I wonder if anybody will hire me out a :goat: or two? ;D
Youd be surprised - put the word out and see!!! Last year I 'borrowed' some horses and this year I intend to borrow some cows to tidy up the edges after hay making. I know I could borrow goats, but I'm terrified of them eating all my new trees (which are fenced of enough for sheep and cows, but possibly not a determined goat?)!!
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Womble,
We have 2 acres to do with the strimmer and I was feeling hard done by. There are times when less land is a bonus ;D
Sally
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LOL, it's ok Sally. My main annoyance will be looking over at the geese whilst I do it, and thinking "This is really your job you know....."
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OH started strimming the field this morning so some of the buttercups have now gone. Its a long job though. Luckily for me the strimmer is his new toy so I don't need to get involved ;D
Sally
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OH started strimming the field this morning so some of the buttercups have now gone.
Wish it was that easy, but no, they are still there, you've just taken their heads off.
Now their heads have gone they will put all their energy into throwing off runners (hence 'top, top, top'). Unfortunately your OH can look forward to many many more hours of strimming over the coming months/years in an attempt to try and eradicate them.
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Oh dear, perhaps I should let him have his moment of glory for a little while longer before I show him this thread :(
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This is all very interesting, and a bit depressing. Our 4 acre field ( new to us, grazed by horses previously, our sheep on it at the moment) has swathes of buttercups (which I was thinking were quite pretty 'til I started reading!) Field is ridge and furrow and the buttercups are in strips. I have been periodically scything the patches of nettles and the odd thistle......I am not sure I can manage to do the buttercups as well. :o
(Just mentioned the scything to those of you feeling hard done to with strimmers! Still it was my choice to go 'less mechanical')
How long should you keep animals of the land after liming??
thanks
Jo
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lime has no effect on livestock but if you are putting on 3 tons to the acre let it wash of the grass first :farmer:
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I just get mine topped off... the sheep will eat them then when wilted as they are less bitter to taste. Cheaper than lime application and pretty natural too
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Thank heavens I'm not the only one!
I went on a Land Management course a few weeks ago and have been having nightmares about my buttercups ever since.
I'll try the lime treatment - do I have to wait till Autumn now?
I came back from Oatridge College all ready to chain harrow the lot (no equipment, just optimism), but breaking up the grounds seem a bad idea.
What is weedpiping anyway? Is that like spot-treatment?
Any advice on a good product to use on them?
Thanks, Joanne xxx
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I just get mine topped off... the sheep will eat them then when wilted as they are less bitter to taste. Cheaper than lime application and pretty natural too
Liming is one of the most cost-effective improvements you can make to land.
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Hi
I've been spraying our pastures with Depitox - mainly to control the ragwort. It seems active against most broadleaved plants - I've tried it on Scots Thistle and Dock and both wilt within hours of being sprayed. The tech specs indicate that it would be good against buttercup too. Depitox should be available from your nearest Ag Supplies merchant.
Livestock has to be kept off the grass for at least 2 weeks after herbicide treatment, longer to wait for the ragwort to disappear.
I agree that buttercup does go rampant on acidic soil - we had a contractor spread lime last year (after doing soil analysis) and the buttercups are not so widespread this year.
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We are thinking of having haylage made this year instead of hay and I wondered if it is still ok with a buttercup infested field? I know that buttercups in hay is ok as they get to dry out quite a lot but haylage is a lot more moist? :-\
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The ideal product to use is Pastor, applied at 2 Litres per Hectare - as well as buttercups it will control nettles, docks, thistles, ragwort etc.
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Chickens will graze on buttercups. Not a terribly practical solution though if you have a large area, unless you happen to have a rather large flock of hens to hand! :)
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I also have lots of buttercups in our 4 acre field which has had horses on it (not mine) for years.
Is there a problem with buttercups in hay?
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No really because the dried plant won't be a lot of the bale by weight. The point is more that it's a pernicious weed that animals mostly won't eat and is a symptom of the land being far too acid.