The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Goats => Topic started by: princesspiggy on February 23, 2012, 09:55:22 pm
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we are having the same problems as last year with our bagot kids.
last year our first nanny kid was born late evening and found it hard to get to her feet and suckle. i was up every few hours with her helping her find the teat and holding her up. the 2nd kid was similar but stronger, and after the first few days both were perfectly well and independent.
this year it is the same nannies but different sires.
today our nanny kidded outside twins at 1pm both a good size, un-complicated birth. it was warm (for here) and breezy. we brought them straight inside with the nanny and left them for half an hr. the mum is very attentive, licking and prompting to be suckled etc. the twins looked weak so i had given them a 10ml syringe each of "kick-start" molasses vitamin drench (for newborn lambs/calves). not much improvement so we moved them into a warmer shed with a heat lamp.
i milked the colostrum off the nanny and syringed at least 25 mls to each kid. they are still not standing, or strong with their necks and its now a good hour after birth so still not up on their feet. nanny is very cooperate and gentle.
the nanny kid hasnt got a sucking reflex so we are syringing with colostrum and a bit more kickstart and keeping her warm. after 6 hrs shes gives up and dies, never tried to suck or stand.
the remaining billy kid, is trying to stand and suck but needs to be literally held up to find the teat. he has colostrum by syringe then bottle, and held in place to suckle and his back legs are weak. i think he will be fine but il be up every 2 hrs to assist him thru tonight.
am i doing something wrong or missing something? cos i feel a native breed should be hardy enough to survive without so much human assistance. would stomach tubing be better and how do i learn how to do that?
any advice please as i still have a nanny to kid yet.
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My sympathies - sorry about the kid. I tend to agree that you would think a native breed would be more hardy. Being able to tube is useful - Tim Tyne's 'Sheep for Smallholder's book gives really good instructions but mine is in the caravan so I'll post tomorrow if no-one else has by then. Take care
Katie
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Sucking reflex in 99% of kids is triggered by being warm internally.
Did the female kids mouth feel coool/cold inside on her tongue..... if so this was most proabably the root cause of not sucking and the colostrum not goin g to the correct stomach. Colostrum goes direct to the 4th stomach when sucked bypassing the others....... there is a valve mechanism that allows this for the first 6hrs of a kids life. Trickling colostrum down the throat does not have the same initial effect of warming up a new baby. With weak kids ALWAYS stomach tube.... do not wait.
I would be looking at your feeding regime prior to kidding to prevent these weak kids. What do you feed.... Bagots are actually not as tough as we are lead to believe.... do you are minerals/supplement to their feed.?
i HAVE JUST ASSISTED WITH THE FORMULATION OF A GFOAT SPECIFIC Mix which I think could be helpful to you..... give me a call on 01647 231456 (evenings) so we can discuss this. Weak kids can be caused by a copper deficiency as well as many other things.
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feeding wise - all the goats are on ab-lib haylage, and get a scoop each of calf rearer nuts (harbros). plus red salt lick.
they are not greedy goats and slimmer rather than fatter.
she did get chilled as she gave birth outside in the breeze (they are in stable at night but wasnt expecting a lunchtime kidding) , but was moved to shed with a boiler, 14C and a heat lamp.
the billy kid survived the night, but i still have to hold him to the teat as he's still wobbly, but is weeing now so must be getting enough. but if i hadnt assisted him alot him, he wouldnt be here now.
this is only our 2nd kidding, we have lambed many times and only the problem wev had with lambing was rejection. they have always got to their feet.
i have tried the goats supplement you mentioned and will order some more. what do u stomach tube with? - fresh colostrum? or shop bought colostrum? - my friend buys it in sachets for his lambs but bottle feeds it .
thankyou
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the little fella is upon his feet now but im still having to assist him to suckle and as he finds it tiring keeping his head up that high he loses his teat about 5 times per feed. it doesnt help that his mum is long coated is this unusual in goats? hes 21 hrs old.
:goat: :wave:
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Tke him off her... he will die otherwise. He needs feeding almost hourly with very small amounts.
You should stomach tube with the dams own colostrum for preference or some other goat colostrum .... goats do not do at all well on synthesised colostrum like lambs do.
How warm is his tongue... by now he should be normal temperature or higher. Bring him in , put him by a heat source & ON A HOT WATER BOTTLE.... they need heat from top & bottom when they have been badly hypothermic.
THEY MUST HAVE COLOSTRUM WITHIN 6 HRS OF BIRTH for it to be effective.
A normal strong kid will drink as much as 250ml of colostrum immediately after birth which really shows why tubing is necessary with weak ones.
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i have tubed him now, he is tiny, no bigger than a pymgy. he had 3oz of his dams milk and im planning to feed him 1-2 hourly til he improves, that is not too frequent for tube feeding? 3oz each time?
he can walk but hes sleepy. hes sleeping under the heat lamp so def warm.
advice greatly appreciated. xx
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hope it works out :/
perhaps thats a contributing factor to them being rare?!
Have you used the same billy this year? Could be genetic factors, might be worth checking through the pedigrees abit in case of in-breeding...
Maybe the girls need a trim of their hair before kidding, to help the littl'uns out
Our girl always kids in the daytime (3:30, 1:15 and 12 noon) ... I thought it was more likely for goats to kid in the day & pigs to farrow at night ???
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perhaps thats a contributing factor to them being rare?!
thats my thinking too. i imagined them being wily and tough after being feral for 600 yrs.
we had exactly same issues last year, tho id only owned the mothers for 8 weeks beforehand.
different sires this year.
Our girl always kids in the daytime (3:30, 1:15 and 12 noon) ... I thought it was more likely for goats to kid in the day & pigs to farrow at night ???
i didnt realise that - my brain is trained for horses, last year one was 5.30 at night and the other was nightime, so i just presumed they would kid at night. we found them within 30 mins but it was quite breezy. id be feeling alot more guilty if id gone out alday but we were working 20 metres away.
i wish id had a stomach tube tho cos that would have probly saved the nany kid, or put her in a warm bath rather than waiting for a heat lamp to warm them. but it didnt seem such an emergency at the time. she died on my knee wrapped up in a blanket. bless her
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bless her, that's just how it is sometimes :-/
perhaps you should contact the owner of the billy, see if anyone else has had problems with weak kids? you never know, it could be genetic....
Ours are Bagot crosses, if you remember we have a Bagot billy. The kids are strong, but very skittish, just like him.
best of luck for the little chap...
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just a query - the second time i tube fed him, the watery milk (id flushed the tube before and after with a touch of water) came back out of his stomach via the tube, is that normal, or a sign that i gave him too much, or too soon for the next feed?
also - whats the best emergency fluid/powder to keep in the store cupboard as harbros had so many i wasnt sure what to get today (iv 5 ewes and 1 nanny due yet). i had kick-start which didnt seem to help much.
thanks ;D ;D ;D
the billy is an unproven billy but his sire was very prolific. i dont think he is the problem. hes is just gorgeous too.
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I wish I had some words of wisdom for you - but not something I have come across - just wanted you to know I've got my fingers crossed for the wee chap
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Basically you are going to have to play it by ear so to speak..... tubing after 6hrs is never as effective as doing it early. You are going to hav e to evaluate the value of the kid and decide whether a call to the Vet is the next step to treat or quietly do the deed.
Sorry if this is bit blunt but there is the correct time to make decisions.... do you feel that kid has enough strength to make it.... they are never quite the same if colostrum has been unavailable in the first 6hrs.
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this one def had colostrum with a syringe and swallowed it, his sister wouldnt suckle but 25ml or so went down her throat, but she died anyway. this chap suckled hungrily the first night but couldnt stand properly, so i had to hold him at the teat. he hasnt wanted to suckle today. i had a farmer come by and help and he got him to suckle a bit after 20 mins of trying - after that we have tubed him.
im off to check him shortly - dreading it ...
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hes pretty much the same today. hes hungry and tries to feed from his mum if i put him in the right place but he is too gentle and her milk isnt letting down into his mouth so he keeps giving up too quick. (she has plenty of milk tho and easy to milk)
hes also not sucking on the bottle as hes trying to suckle it rather than suck, so not swallowing any milk that either, a bit confusing for him.
we r still tube feeding him, he is pooing and weeing good. any tips?
You are going to hav e to evaluate the value of the kid
as usual, where goat kids are involved, my children fall head over heels for them. theyd happily hand raise him in the house. will ringing his balls put him back a bit? hes 2.5 days old already.
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it is alarming the heat loss in any new born animal and once chilled they take longer to recover if at all (sac has a video taken with a thermal image camera that highlights the problem)
if it is breeding at fault it is on the mothers side
tubing never worked for us with calves they always died but that was breed related and nothing to do with goats :farmer:
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If you leave him with her... he will not survive. You can ring them up to 7 days so no hurry on that score.
Take him indoors... he still sounds as if his body temperature internally is too low and the sucking reflex will not react until that is right. He also stands a good chance of pneumonia at present being outside.
Give him milk at slightly higher than body temp initially... this seems to trigger a better response.... gently rub the underside of the jaw when the bottle is in his mouth. I also find kids that are slow, suck better if they are facing away from you.... no logic in this but if it works, all to the good.
By stroking the throat, the kid will automatically swallow, it won't have any choice. Offer small amounts every 2 hours but leave a gap overnight so that he is hungry in the morning..... I wouldn't go b eyond 6 hrs tho'.
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they are sort of indoors, there is a boiler in the room and a heat lamp. its where i hatch out my chicks etc. the nanny has got use to it and eating ok. loads of milk too, ud think she was a dairy goat the way shes stood to be milked! ;D ;D
today has been a good day. he is suckling off her now tho whether he is when im not there i dont know, needs a little prompting to keep going. hes feeling better and had a little skip around.
i think he'l be ok now, touch wood, thanks for everyones advice.
will take piccies soon. great markings for a bagot, tho has brown highlights on his dark hair.
thanks xx
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good news :thumbsup:
can't wait to see photos, my boy Cesar will tell you there's nothing wrong with brown highlights ... both he and I go lighter in the sun!
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Ahh that's great - so does that mean I can pop over soon to give him a cuddle?
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yes, of course, we;d love to see yours too. wev just been tasting the bagot milk and its nice - im not usually a fan of goats milk, but its creamy and not too strong. not stacks but enough for a treat! lol - tho it was easier to milk our old gg, not as short! ;D ;D ;D
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hes is doing great now, feeding properly and has a full belly. so thanks for all advice.
just wondering whther to keep the other pregnant nanny in the warm shed too, incase her kids get chilled also? or is fresh air better?
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I'd err on the side of caution and keep her in unless temperatures rise.
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heres a wee picture of the cause of sleepless nights...lol...hes fit as a fiddle now and runs up for kisses!
:D :D :D :D :D
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Awwww, he's bonnie :thumbsup:
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aw, hes lovely!
Does he have a name yet? (Lucky?!)
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Gorgeous boy.
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aw, hes lovely!
Does he have a name yet? (Lucky?!)
the twins were gona be called Bonnie and Clyde, but as the nanny sadly died he called Bonnie Prince Charlie (in her memory).
they are going out to the stable today with a heat lamp. other nanny yet to kid.
my kids are loving the bagot milk, tho we are only getting half a pint! wer hoping to milk our shetland cows so should get more than that...lol
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aw, thats lovely. Just shows how small they are
welcome to the world Bonny Prince Charlie
:)
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What a lovely picture - want to come over - will try soon - but not far off 3 more kidding so......... but I will get across before the winter!!!!!!!!!
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What a lovely picture - want to come over - will try soon - but not far off 3 more kidding so......... but I will get across before the winter!!!!!!!!!
yes definitely, or we'l come and find you. are pygmys smaller than baby bagots? good luck xx
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I think so but as I've not actually seen a Bagot kid so I can't be sure - when the pygmy's are born the are about the size of a hand from front legs to back so you can pick them up with one hand, and all skin and bone just like the Bagot I bet. The first kids are over 2 weeks now and a filling out to what I would class as 'stocky' - will the boys are!!! Maybe they're just little pigs (hence pigmy)
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I Maybe they're just little pigs (hence pigmy)
;D ;D
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I've been looking thru my David Mckenzies book today, came across Vit A deficency, causing weak or dead kids, wondered if this would relate to yours?
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my nannies are fed calf rearer nuts, whether that is the right amount of vit a for goats, i dont know. maybe i should get high energy vitamin bucket.
the kid is great now, in stable and feeding normally. it took 5 days for him to be independent. i had to tube feed him 5 or so times til he got his strength. and then had to supervise his feeds as he was likely to give up too quick. i did wonder if he was too short to reach as his mum his quite tall. i would hold him up by about 4 inches and he'd suckle then, he has grown abit now.
still have a nanny to kid yet- now she is a shorty. i have learnt to stomach tube but not sure how to prevent it happening again.
i still think we found the kids within 30 mins of birth, and although it was breezy, it was a suprisingly warm day.
is it normal for newborn goats to sleep with their heads bent back onto their backs, cos he did and so did they last year. always makes my heart freeze when i see them like that.
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Princesspiggy.... have you purchased the new goat mineral feed balancer yet ? This was designed to give goats of all types the essential minerals & trace elements that are usually missing from most compound feeds.
The calf feed is an excellent start but goats need more.
If you havent bought the Premium Goat Balancer yet give Kym Moore a ring at Denis Brinicombes on 01363 775115 on Monday. She will ensure you get a bucket asap.
A lot of other people on this forum have purchased and swear by it. It sis the first one that really addresses every thing a goat needs but of course it does need to fed all year round to get the very best from it.
DO RING ME ON 01647 231456 if you would like to talk about it.
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What a handsome prince,well worth all that effort, he is gorgeous :love:
Congratulations