The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: deepinthewoods on January 11, 2012, 08:19:35 pm
-
well someone had to ask!
it seems cameron has wrong footed alex salmon, is it the time for a referendum?
-
Nope, he hasn't wrong footed him, he has stuck his big foot in where it isn't wanted. The referendum will take place when the Scottish Parliament think the time is right.
-
i dont think the scottish parliament has the right to decide that, or am i wrong?
-
Oh yes doganjo your so right. I ask myself where has this come from what is Cameron trying to divert attention away from. This country is in recession for god sake man get a grip.
-
i dont think the scottish parliament has the right to decide that, or am i wrong?
The Scottish Parliament can ask the Scottish people what they like, when they like. The issue is whether the result would have any legal standing if the referendum question was constitutional, or related any other matter where the power isn't devolved to Holyrood.
Just remember that an independent Scotland would increase the Tories' majority in Westminster by dozens... ;)
-
I can't help but think that the SNP have thought this process through like a game of chess. Westminster are desperatley playing catch up. Salmond is an old political hand and I think him and his backroom staff have got every move planned and double planned in order to try and steer the process exactly where they want it to go. The vote is always going to be close, who knows which side will manage to sway the result most!
-
a point raised on radio5 earlier was whether the scots would take their share of the national debt, and the answer offered was yes they would.
also how the armed forces would stand? i know personally that this would leave the sas rather short handed...
-
I asked on FB for a breakdown of for and against without all the crap about past history!! I would love a list of for and against and that way I would be able to make my own mind as at the moment everyone has thier own agenda.
Polititions are bias and so I do not trust them!!
-
It's not just the armed forces - how about the DVLA, the NHS, tax office and DWP? Would Scotland still be in the EU, or would it have to apply to join? From talking to most of the Scots I work with and have as neighbours, they're happy with the way things are now with enough devolved power to control Scotland, but with the strength and stabilising influence of the union.
-
I'm pretty worried about the fact that i'm hearing nothing from south of the border as to how it will affect the people who live there now, 10 years from now and 100 years hence. How will it affect you all economically, internationally, UN, Nato, G20 etc. How will you pay for the fixed costs of goverment with 10% smaller a population? How will it affect your international credit rating? 70 years from now how will you generate your electric? Scottish Hydro? Sadly so far I've heard nothing which fears me considering this will affect everyone in the UK equally!
-
Just remember that an independent Scotland would increase the Tories' majority in Westminster by dozens... ;)
;) ;) ;) ;) ;D
-
I am not too sure about business investment either.....or the breakdown of earners in Scotland but it must be less pro cappita then in England but then again, I do not know. Longannet lost its application to convert to carbon capture and that would have brought a lot to the local economy!!
-
surely the lack of scottish mps in westminster would also have the effect of reducing scottish influence in voting on matters than dont affect them?
-
;D
Rather than waste the money on such things as legally arguing for an independant Scotland & making solicitors etc wealthy
Lets ignore the" Bray Fart " noises and tell them that Mel Gibson really is an actor & Wallace actually was a crook .
Why not give it to them for free ASAP , of course they will have to fund their own NHS, benefits and raise taxes but look at the advantage to N. Ireland , England & Wales .. No MOD bases , No scottish soldiers , no benefits , grants . No longer having to finance their bridges and ferries & bringing the UK government office systems back into the UK IE . Cumbernauld .
Cut the power grid & let them build their own systems . There is enough wind blowing around up there in Hollyrood house for zillions of wind generators .
No Scots in the UK's government blethering away , no Scottish expense claims and no flats /second homes etc etc.
No Scotish trade union supported MP's who have little or no business experience or common sense .
Of course when the Scots people come South to the UK charge them an access /passport fee and road useage premium . Let them provide their own air control systems & build a decent airport .
We could have a special tax rate on their stuff called whiskey as its only distilled twice and rather inferior to the Welsh stuff or that single malt whisky from the Bushmills distillery , which is distilled three times and is the nectar of the gods.
Re :- North Sea Oil give em all a spade and let them go and dig it up anywhere in their 200 mile limit .
Of course like the Welsh , England could charge all to enter the country as at the latest Severn toll bridge .
Think how much it would cost the Scots to have dual language road signs & markings then having to teach the people how to read them .
Then we have all quango & governmental documents in dual languages costing zillions more .
They'd also have to withdraw from the UK parliament and start their own hen house and governmenal systems etc.
All in all I'd say it just might bankrupt the Scots just like the Scottish Chancellor did to France all those years ago.
Seriously though .
All joking aside there are some points in what I've said ................. I think it would be financial suicide for most Scottish people & they have a hard enough life as it is , they don't need more crap in their lives.
But if they want to go their own way ,they get my blessing so long as it does not cost me any more dosh .
It does seem to me that a bunch of s**t stirrers are going to hoodwink the population and empire build at their expense .
I say this sadly , l bet the excellent Scottish education system suffers because of it if independence rules..
The comment about 10 % of population being taken off the UK's £££ count .. What is the UK's spend on Scotland against what Scotland puts back in the pot of the UK ? I suspect it is a neat one way journey from London.
-
Just remember that an independent Scotland would increase the Tories' majority in Westminster by dozens... ;)
;) ;) ;) ;) ;D
What a scary thought.
-
Just remember that an independent Scotland would increase the Tories' majority in Westminster by dozens... ;)
;) ;) ;) ;) ;D
What a scary thought.
Labour , Llib dem , Conservative or any other wannabee ..it's slowly dawing on milliband and co that there is indeed a big problem of debt and not enough in the pot to solve it for 30 yrs or more ..
That much of what the coalition has put in place will help sort things out providing things don't go further down the tubes .
When ever a government plays at rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic it still sinks , perhaps this different coalition way of thinking might produce a different result to the same old , same old repeated failed plans & ideas
-
My heart says "Independence".
It's a shame Plantoid's post seems so aggressively anti-Scottish. The Scottish desire for independence is not based on anti-English feeling. I love England and, well, I'm married to and Englishman, as is my sister. I just think it's time that we in Scotland looked bravely and carefully at our options. Trying to rush a "yes', "no" referendum just seems to me to be the action of folk trying to scare us into a "no" vote.
Yes, there are a lot of unanswered questions for me - like defence, like the monarchy, like EU membership but that's why we, the Scottish electorate, need our Scottish government to negotiate these things so that we know what the implications are of a "yes" vote.
Scaremongering won't wash any more - for too long we've been told we're too small, too poor, too lacking in resources, too stupid to manage our own affairs. I'm sorry - I just don't buy it any more. It's time for a change.
-
surely the lack of scottish mps in westminster would also have the effect of reducing scottish influence in voting on matters than dont affect them?
Scotland can do what it pleases as can Wales & NI but the above really bugs me because on an Enlish issue in the last labour parliament sh** for brains Tony Blair used the scottish & welsh MPs to push thro one of his more stupid new laws which had me raging but strangley i now can't remember what it was? must have been something to do with rual affairs or i wouldn't have noticed.
Last night on Look North they were in Berwick & Gretna border towns literally and what will will happen to them, i beleive berwick is English at the moment even though their footy team play in the scots league! and to seed them back to scotland would take an act of parliament,
This would open up a whole new can of worms, would the Queen still be their monarch or would they be looking for a descendant of the last Scotish king to take a throne?, would they want a monarch?, could the Queen still hang on to Balmoral?
Could be a constitutional crisis be in the offing. The govt must have some very very bad news to bury! to open up this pandora's box.
Mandy :pig:
-
Balmoral is a privately owned estate, bought by queen vict. I am assuming that while the SNP has several essentially socialist policies it has no plans to do a mugabe and forcibly evict legal propert owners just cos they don't like their nationality.
Certainly it looks like, if not a constitutional crisis, then a large problem to deal with. Presumably it would have to be followed/coincide with a national election (in what is left if the UK) as the Scotish mp's would no longer sit in westminster. Still, at least that'd give us a chance to get rid of this lot and mebbe get a decent govt in. Not sure exactly who that would be mind, as they're each worse than each other. And competing to see who get get to the bottom of the barrel the quickest.
-
My heart says "Independence".
It's a shame Plantoid's post seems so aggressively anti-Scottish. The Scottish desire for independence is not based on anti-English feeling. I love England and, well, I'm married to and Englishman, as is my sister. I just think it's time that we in Scotland looked bravely and carefully at our options. Trying to rush a "yes', "no" referendum just seems to me to be the action of folk trying to scare us into a "no" vote.
Yes, there are a lot of unanswered questions for me - like defence, like the monarchy, like EU membership but that's why we, the Scottish electorate, need our Scottish government to negotiate these things so that we know what the implications are of a "yes" vote.
Scaremongering won't wash any more - for too long we've been told we're too small, too poor, too lacking in resources, too stupid to manage our own affairs. I'm sorry - I just don't buy it any more. It's time for a change.
This is exactly the same for me - my second husband was English (Devonian), and I love many parts of England too, but NOT what the English Government is trying to do to it's neighbours - and I include Ireland and Wales in that. I see the number of Welsh MPS will be considerably reduced as the Government is changing the constituency boundaries!
-
I believe Berwick has changed nationality 13 times in history - currently English but feels Scottish. Gretna is in Scotland so no problem there - unless someone's talking about swapsies but I can't think the good people of Gretna would go along with that ;D
Personally, I hope that an independent Scotland would remain a monarchy and ask the Queen to be our head of state. I don't see that's any different to other Commonwealth countries like Canada.
And no, I don't think anyone will be deprived of their property because of their lack of Scottish nationality. If anything, Scotland welcomes immigration to these shores. The days of "English go home" daubed on walls are past. Anyone who wants to live here and contribute to Scottish society is welcome.
It's not about what the Westminster government is trying to do to its neighbours - lets face it, the same things are being done to England too - but Scotland is a nation with its own heritage and history and present issues. they aren't better or worse than any other country's, including England, just different so we need to be able to develop our own solutions.
-
My heart says "Independence".
It's a shame Plantoid's post seems so aggressively anti-Scottish. The Scottish desire for independence is not based on anti-English feeling. I love England and, well, I'm married to and Englishman, as is my sister. I just think it's time that we in Scotland looked bravely and carefully at our options. Trying to rush a "yes', "no" referendum just seems to me to be the action of folk trying to scare us into a "no" vote.
Yes, there are a lot of unanswered questions for me - like defence, like the monarchy, like EU membership but that's why we, the Scottish electorate, need our Scottish government to negotiate these things so that we know what the implications are of a "yes" vote.
Scaremongering won't wash any more - for too long we've been told we're too small, too poor, too lacking in resources, too stupid to manage our own affairs. I'm sorry - I just don't buy it any more. It's time for a change.
No anti Scottish sentiments at all , I've just taken the emotion out of the situation & taken the light hearted way of making a few points hidden in the post..
This morning I sat and watched the Holyrood session on TV.. Mr Salmond appears to have a lot of mouth but little brains if his performance this morning is any thing to go by. What is the age old saying .. " Empty vessels make the most noise " ?
I've met so many guys like him in my life , " barrack room lawyers " readily comes to mind .. he was so rude to the other Scottish non SNP MP's it does not bode well for Scotland having this ego seeker as first minister.
-
I have personally met Mr Salmond on three occasions, and he is a VERY polite and intelligent man(although admittedly passionate) !
-
Can't agree with you Plantoid. I've never met Alex Salmond, (Nicola Sturgeon used to be my solicitor, though ;D) but I think he's a smart cookie and passionate about Scotland (not just Scottish independence). He's also surrounded himself with a pretty decent team. Richard Lochhead, CabSec for Rural Affairs, is very well thought of, even by farmers (who aren't easy to please).
-
I'm happy for the people to vote.
Over here, we depend on Westminster for our budget (no option to vote Tory or Labour here) and I know we don't generate enouigh revenue to cover what they give us, so we'd be beat without them.
Our other option is the Republic, but they're not in the best financial state to take on more unemployment and other state benefits, so I think we should be happy where we're at.
If the people of Scotland really believe that independance is best, then by all means vote for it.
But it is a big step and if it goes belly up, I'm sure, going by history, that the English will welcome them back with open arms ;)
-
As a suggestion, how about Scotland is independant but part of the commonwealth instead of part of the union? That way the queen stays as head of state!
-
Funny I still have not had a straight answer to pros and cons.....I am definatley undecided on this one...nothing whatsoever about living up here or any remote family connection, just being practicle in this climate of countires going under rapidly and would there be enough industry in Scotland to bring a better income if made independant? The wonderful NHS system up here is not so under stretched but will it be without backing of England....I really do not know if its good or bad!!
-
Funny I still have not had a straight answer to pros and cons.....I am definatley undecided on this one...nothing whatsoever about living up here or any remote family connection, just being practicle in this climate of countires going under rapidly and would there be enough industry in Scotland to bring a better income if made independant? The wonderful NHS system up here is not so under stretched but will it be without backing of England....I really do not know if its good or bad!!
I don't think there is anyone on here who could give you a straight answer to the pros and cons, and until there is negotiation between the Scottish Government and Westminster, I don't think there are any straight answers. And maybe if there were, the facts will always be open to interpretation by whatever "side".
Scotland has many resources - natural and manmade - and in her people. But partly it will depend on whether the SG can secure these for Scotland. Did you know that Westminster redrew the Scottish / English sea boundary and moved it from Berwick to Carnoustie - thus moving 6000 square miles of sea from Scotland to England? I think we'd like it back, please.
As to "without the backing of England" re the NHS, Scotland has been succesfully running her own helath service for some years now. I suspect that you are operating under the myth that Scotland is subsidised by the British Treasury - not so, we are net contributers.
Scotland's issues are not the same as those in England - we need the freedom to deal with them in our own way.
-
And when is it you are standing against Alex Salmond? ;D ;D ;D ;D Only joking, ;) I feel as strongly as you, just not quite so eloquent! :bouquet:
-
I am not under any illusion or know anything about the economy thats what I need to know...I for one am definatly unbiased, why would I be? however I do know about the sea boundery.
-
http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/political-news/with-fairness-and-clarity-we-will-win-our-case.1326337477 (http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/political-news/with-fairness-and-clarity-we-will-win-our-case.1326337477)
The linked article is quite interesting.
-
I can run with the nationalistic pride thing that's a given.
I have a lot of Scottisn commercial fishers and recreational boat and shore fishing friends for fish for the pot or hook and drop them .
For th last six years we have bandied the idea of devolution , what itss costs were and will be in the long run .
this independene thing has any of your scottish politicians laid out for any or all of you waht the plans are should you vote for independence and the likely costs of it to the Scottish people .
when I was watching the Holyrood session today I got the impression that the SNP's were not willing to set out their stall but only wanted test the water with the vote if it wa a yes then the'y come up with some thing but they didn't say what it woukd do if it came up a restounding NO .
The parties other than the SNP seamed to be trying to get a fix on that but all mr Salmond did was infer that they wer in cahoots with a mythical monster called Westminster.
Which to me means he totally neglected to take on board that they were also Scottish and representing their Scotish people. That 's a bit dangerous and condesending it might just come back and bite him in his bum with a vengence .
Some of the more credible Scottish thinkers on the sea fishing site ie . Barristers. Fishing vessel owners ,businessmen ,Scottish government officials & a couple of journalists think it would be very bad for the country to be fully independent .
They say go for the max devolution option and build the long term prospects over the next 20 or so years then see if it is going to pan out.
They all caution " Be very careful what you wish for , you might just get it ".
-
the nearest i have come to Mr salmond was his Grannie cutting my hair when i was a child
the snp had a better man fronting it when it was billy Wolfe sadly he is no longer here to guide his party
cost well the Scottish parliament building just developed arms and legs when it was being made a cash cow for all concerned
goggle the west lothian question that was asked by tam dayell he was Tory tam the labour man
no point in asking us Scots what is going to happen when the nuts in charge of the asylum don't know :farmer:
-
Plantoid, that's certainly a bit clearer, thanks, I keep reading one article saying good things then another saying bad, all I need is a clear mind to see what they are on about. I can see that policies passed in Westminster have no barring on the requirements of Scotland.
In my non political mind any change will create waves that will shake the economy, I am not sure if I heard correctly about foreign investment, companies wanting to move over to Scotland but may not if In Scotland gains independance, although there may also be more benefits, the health system may attract people comming for treatement, also Education and the benifit system, its the insecurity is the thing and I wonder if companies will take a chance.
-
I take the times onmy kindle book ( 32 p per day )
yesterdays articles kind of show some of the likely problems and areas that will end up being " compromised " in both of its meanings .
The oil revenues are aparently only ( Hope I get this right ) £ 10.4 billion UK GDP is 142 trillion losing the oil is no big hardship but what will cause dificulties is an independaent scotland having British military and defence situated there.
The reason that the likes of the RAF , navel bases & barracks have been kept there was to give income to the country .. that may have to change.
Woukld the newly independent scotland create their own currency , go Euro or want to keep it British.
apparently some of the financiers and bean crunchers reckon an Independent Scotland would have an international credit rating similar to that of Greece and face the same problems of no body wanting to lend or work with them .
This could have a massive knock on effect of international companies moving out of Scotland to protect their business.
Taxation also rears its ugly head & is not as easy as it first looks.
No one has done the number crunching ( don't let Gordon Brown EX UK PM anywhere near the counting table ;D ) yet. But as the SNP appear to want to raise their own taxes they will have to be exceedingly carefull as to what & how theydo it .
4 milliion Scots of which I would say nearly 35% are non earners will have to dig very deep into their pockets to fund everything . If the tax rate and business taxes are too high businesses that can will head South and if it's too little you will get some incommers if your lucky .
GB might then say well we will / can reduce the levels of tax because we are not suporting Scotland and end up making it a journey south again because businesses are in it for making money not coughing up to support political ideas.
from what I can gather from my Scottish pals and the papers & TV news is that the idea of independence is all nice and fluffy giving all Scots a nice warm glow but the harsh realities of cost have not been considered by many in the SNP and that these need looking at in an intense spot light long before any referendums are held .
I also get the impression that some of the more questioning Scots have seen through the smoke & mirrors of the 30 %5 vote for SNP that Salmond keeps pushing ... It being that many people voted for SNP because the alternatives were not to their liking .& it was much more of a protest vote spit in the eye to Westminister than many care to admit .
, Salmond appears to have taken this 30% as Gospel and thinks he has a mandate in his own right. Come an election /referendum he might well end up as Billy No Mates in the results when people find out that the woolley hat job that was pulled over ther eyes is going to cost them dearly for manymany years to come.
Ths Scottish fishing fleet is already having a big probs with the EEC over byecatch and mesh sizes as welmas other countries fishing in the area around 15,000 jobs depend up on this industry in Scotland alone .
Going independent will either mean having nothing to do with EEC or being their slaves & following their nonsensicsal edicts blindly or having to pay massive daily fines..
Some of my pals who experienced the " Icelandic Cod Wars " have also given this type of view .wrt independence :-
If your going independent you'll need a lot of fishery enforcement vessels and manpower 24/7 which is very very expensive , as you don't have a navy or airforce etc.that you can divert to the task.
I think the Scots people need , indeed deserve a much clearer song sheet long before they sing the SNP's tune or else you'll end up in the crap like the UK is now when Ted Heath took us into the EEC in 1975 &.no one had thought through the machinations of the others .
-
the alternative vote is a factor that few have considered before take west lothian as a prime example a staunch labour area in the past they could have fielded a monkey and won there seat robin cook was the last labour mp in this constituency conservative always lost there deposit so no point in voting for them it would have been a lost vote no point in voting labour they only wanted to feather there own nest liberal yet another lost cause so that leaves snp which did storm ahead because of all the above mentioned points
the cod wars of the 60s every night it dragged out on the TV there must have been a lot of bad news to bury back then with the Americans in Vietnam spy's getting it off at the tax payers ex pence poulson rubbing shoulders with Harold Wilson etc etc :farmer:
-
I am very proud to be Scottish but trust any MP to tell me the truth that I would be very wary about.
-
I just hope that the Scottish people in Scotland do not become even more anti English......makes me paranoid when you get " Are you English?" ::)
-
I just hope that the Scottish people in Scotland do not become even more anti English......makes me paranoid when you get " Are you English?" ::)
I'm glad you recognise your paranoia.
I've not found Scottish people to be anti-English. Dan's English, so's the rest of his family - they haven't experienced any anti-English comments or treatment in the 20 odd years they've been here.
My chum along the road is from Hexham - when I first met her, I asked where she was from. Doesn't make me anti-English.
As I've said before, Scottish independence isn't anti-English or anti- anything. Why must it be a negative thing? can't it just be pro-Scottish?
-
i dont think it is, but if its anything like wales....
all power to the strong arm of the scottish in my opinion, there is also a rising movement towards a cornish parliament and legally the cornish stannary parlaiment is still legitamate so it will be interesting to see if anything comes of that also.
-
I take the times onmy kindle book ( 32 p per day )
yesterdays articles kind of show some of the likely problems and areas that will end up being " compromised " in both of its meanings .
The oil revenues are aparently only ( Hope I get this right ) £ 10.4 billion UK GDP is 142 trillion losing the oil is no big hardship but what will cause dificulties is an independaent scotland having British military and defence situated there.
The reason that the likes of the RAF , navel bases & barracks have been kept there was to give income to the country .. that may have to change.
Woukld the newly independent scotland create their own currency , go Euro or want to keep it British.
apparently some of the financiers and bean crunchers reckon an Independent Scotland would have an international credit rating similar to that of Greece and face the same problems of no body wanting to lend or work with them .
This could have a massive knock on effect of international companies moving out of Scotland to protect their business.
Taxation also rears its ugly head & is not as easy as it first looks.
No one has done the number crunching ( don't let Gordon Brown EX UK PM anywhere near the counting table ;D ) yet. But as the SNP appear to want to raise their own taxes they will have to be exceedingly carefull as to what & how theydo it .
4 milliion Scots of which I would say nearly 35% are non earners will have to dig very deep into their pockets to fund everything . If the tax rate and business taxes are too high businesses that can will head South and if it's too little you will get some incommers if your lucky .
GB might then say well we will / can reduce the levels of tax because we are not suporting Scotland and end up making it a journey south again because businesses are in it for making money not coughing up to support political ideas.
from what I can gather from my Scottish pals and the papers & TV news is that the idea of independence is all nice and fluffy giving all Scots a nice warm glow but the harsh realities of cost have not been considered by many in the SNP and that these need looking at in an intense spot light long before any referendums are held .
I also get the impression that some of the more questioning Scots have seen through the smoke & mirrors of the 30 %5 vote for SNP that Salmond keeps pushing ... It being that many people voted for SNP because the alternatives were not to their liking .& it was much more of a protest vote spit in the eye to Westminister than many care to admit .
, Salmond appears to have taken this 30% as Gospel and thinks he has a mandate in his own right. Come an election /referendum he might well end up as Billy No Mates in the results when people find out that the woolley hat job that was pulled over ther eyes is going to cost them dearly for manymany years to come.
Ths Scottish fishing fleet is already having a big probs with the EEC over byecatch and mesh sizes as welmas other countries fishing in the area around 15,000 jobs depend up on this industry in Scotland alone .
Going independent will either mean having nothing to do with EEC or being their slaves & following their nonsensicsal edicts blindly or having to pay massive daily fines..
Some of my pals who experienced the " Icelandic Cod Wars " have also given this type of view .wrt independence :-
If your going independent you'll need a lot of fishery enforcement vessels and manpower 24/7 which is very very expensive , as you don't have a navy or airforce etc.that you can divert to the task.
I think the Scots people need , indeed deserve a much clearer song sheet long before they sing the SNP's tune or else you'll end up in the crap like the UK is now when Ted Heath took us into the EEC in 1975 &.no one had thought through the machinations of the others .
Beware the writings of the Tory English press - they are no more unbiased than any political party.
There is a British military presence in Scotland because these are the best places, strategically, to site them. We are also lumbered with the nuclear presence at Faslane, which most Scots would prefer not to have. Since the USA has maintained bases in other countries including the UK, and Britain has bases in other countries, I see no practical reason why these bases cannot continue to remain in Scotland.
Scottish banks already print their own currency - I'm sure we'd manage. Some financiers may well say negative things - others will say positive things. Do we rest on the views of financiers, given their track record?
On the otherhand, an independent Scotland may take steps to encourage business in. Why would businesses necessarily find Scotland unattractive as a location and jump ship? This is just scaremongering.
On tax, just more scaremongering based on nothing. Currently, Scotland is a net contributer to the Exchequer.
Alex Salmond has always clearly acknowledged that the SNP majority at Holyrood (remarkable in itself as the Labour administration that set set it up did so in such a way that a Nationalist majority was felt to be well nigh impossible) is not a "yes" to independence - the SNP is not taking that for granted. The rest of the paragraph on this is frankly insulting.
Despite having a major fleet of more importance to us than the English fleet is to England, Scotland has been denied a place at the EU negotiating table by Westminster. I have posted before about Westminster's theft of 6000 square miles of Scottish waters - the boundary now lies off Carnoustie, I believe.
Re the EU, I personally don't like it but patently lots of other countries do since the number of members has steadily grown. In or out, I can't see that we'll be any worse off than we are as part of the UK.
I agree that there needs to be more information - it's unlikley to be unbiased, since there will be very few people without a view on the matter. It will be for voters to make a judgement call. The need for certain matters to be clarified and for the voters to have more information is exactly why the SNP have decided to delay the referendum - so that we can make the best informed decision possible.
-
Most people I meet are lovely BUT.....there has been times...eg, when a snowball hit me and a man walked by saying "oh they are English" NOT nice and loads more, eg, going to a big company for an interview..I worked for the same company and wanted to re locate...the staff were there to answer questions, I asked and a high up worker turned his back on me and said " I don't do English" just because it don't happen to you is no indication it is not happening, ask other people!!!!!!!! I worked and went to uni to study Youth and community and a major part of that course was anti oppressive practice.....I know how it affects peoples confidence......Judge when you live in peoples shoes not by your own. I used to see first hand racisum in Leicester and I hated it, I am in NO way anti Scotland going independant at all....just being practical!!
It is NOT about people asking where you from, some are missing the point here...remember I am used to working with people from different cultures...Do not shoot me down for my experiance. I only want to Know the pros and cons as in some peoples eyes I am uneducated!!
-
Before I started seeing him, my late husband (from the West Country - so a strong accent, my bird ;)) used to say that he was victimised because he was English. I asked him why he thought that a couple of months later when our relationship had become established - it was because almost everyone asked him 'was he English' purely because they didn't recognise his accent. When I explained that they were just curious he stopped saying it and became fast friends with my two grown up SCOTTISH children, my SCOTTISH Mum, my SCOTTISH Aunts, Uncles and Cousins. He was such a lovely man that they adopted him. That is what we do in Scotland, we 'adopt' nice people and they become Scots like us ;D When he died there were 350 people at his funeral - and I would guess perhaps less than a dozen were ENGLISH! There were a scattering of other nationalities too. ;D
-
George Osborne refused to rule out Scotland being barred from retaining the pound if it split from the rest of the UK after the autumn 2014 referendum
Another threat?
And another one? The Chancellor told ITV News that Scotland would also have to take on its share, estimated at £100 billion, of the national debt and questioned its ability to pay towards the UK's £187bn current exposure to the bailed-out Royal Bank of Scotland after its near-collapse in 2008. The First Minister had earlier said that he would not be prepared to share the UK's exposure to its toxic assets.
-
surely if there was no form of emnity between the 'english' and the 'scots' there'd be no call for independence?
-
George Osborne refused to rule out Scotland being barred from retaining the pound if it split from the rest of the UK after the autumn 2014 referendum
Another threat?
And another one? The Chancellor told ITV News that Scotland would also have to take on its share, estimated at £100 billion, of the national debt and questioned its ability to pay towards the UK's £187bn current exposure to the bailed-out Royal Bank of Scotland after its near-collapse in 2008. The First Minister had earlier said that he would not be prepared to share the UK's exposure to its toxic assets.
Oh dear, this is just the sort of scare tactics that they have been reduced to. If it wasn't lowering the tone of the debate, I'd say George was an ar*e but it would, so I won't.
-
surely if there was no form of emnity between the 'english' and the 'scots' there'd be no call for independence?
As I have said before, the desire for independence does not arise from any enmity towards England. It is a desire for equality.
Someone described it to me as being like a family - for many years, the Scots, like a child, have been told we are too small, too poor, too stupid to manage our own affairs. That we cannot manage without the Westminster parent to look after us. At some point the child will want to strike out on its own, hopefully learning from its parent but from other influences as well. This doesn't mean the child hates the parent - it's simply that it has realised that it needs to determine its own path in the world and hopefully, both parent and child will maintain a long and happy relationship that is mutually satisfying to both parties.
-
thats helpful and a nice way of putting it, ta.
so its sort of like, westminsters done a good job of bringing you up, but now youve got the infrastructure, the educational system, the nhs, probably the most beautiful part of the island and most of its oil and gas resources, you want out? :)
-
Most people I meet are lovely BUT.....there has been times...eg, when a snowball hit me and a man walked by saying "oh they are English" NOT nice and loads more, eg, going to a big company for an interview..I worked for the same company and wanted to re locate...the staff were there to answer questions, I asked and a high up worker turned his back on me and said " I don't do English" just because it don't happen to you is no indication it is not happening, ask other people!!!!!!!! I worked and went to uni to study Youth and community and a major part of that course was anti oppressive practice.....I know how it affects peoples confidence......Judge when you live in peoples shoes not by your own. I used to see first hand racisum in Leicester and I hated it, I am in NO way anti Scotland going independant at all....just being practical!!
It is NOT about people asking where you from, some are missing the point here...remember I am used to working with people from different cultures...Do not shoot me down for my experiance. I only want to Know the pros and cons as in some peoples eyes I am uneducated!!
Steady, Sandy. Any form of racism or bigotry is not acceptable in Scotland (or anywhere else for that matter) and I agree that it's the individual's perceptions that are important but as jaykay said on another thread, we can choose how we react to things that happen to us.
I think there are some people - the offensorati - who just look for things to be offended by. And, for the avoidance of doubt, that's a general observation not one aimed at you.
-
thats helpful and a nice way of putting it, ta.
so its sort of like, westminsters done a good job of bringing you up, but now youve got the infrastructure, the educational system, the nhs, probably the most beautiful part of the island and most of its oil and gas resources, you want out? :)
I would no more comment on Westminster's parenting skills than I would on yours ;D
-
no, cos that would be pushing it. ::)
-
Hang on, that did happen and does happen so I am not suppose to say? I love Scotland and the people, you get racist people everywhere and its taught me a lesson as I worked as a "Black worker" in Leicester as they had not got any suitable people to take on the post at the time!!!! I miss read the application form but still got the job....I think some one is miss reading my, not that educated post...I keep saying I just want to know pros and cons, I am not against anything just want to know what may happen..in my experience politictions do not always tell the truth ;) Why say "steady to me? I am not saying anything offenceive???? I am very confused now and wish I had not asked!! Imust add I am deeply offended as I am the last person to be racist or anti any thing, my motto is live and let live and I have too much on my plate to read a lot of stuff so asked on here and that was a big mistake I think!!
-
O dear this is the case as allways politics great stuff?? But these politicians dont give a shite about anyone, expect the few. All they want is to keep in power so as to maintain there so called status, and play on the public and gain groups, are you in my gang? and in my view this is not just for Britain but all politicans around are little world. Anyhow enjoy your night and make the most of lighter nights coming are way.
-
I agree, off now ...still none the wiser.. :wave:
-
Well i blame Mel Gibson , they should hang him (oh yeah , they did !) Grommit was a bit wiser , kept his mouth shut !
-
I do to, Russ :love: :wave: (Wasn't he English ??? ???)
-
After listening to radio scotland this week I am lead to believe that Scotland will adopt the Euro as its prefered currency. We all know how the Scottish Parlement feel about the U.K government and hate its interferance in scottish policy, this leads me to quiry its strength and standing should it come into any conflict with the euro - nations. Its a big playground with Germany and France dictating the playground rules!
I think if Scotland leaves the U.K then I think it should stay further away from the E.U.
Jumping into bed with someone else after a break up can leave a nasty rash, or worse!
-
mel gibbson is an austrailian
funny how it is the southerners that are all concerened if scotland goes it alone ;) :farmer:
-
Mel Gibbson was born in the usa . I think his nan was an ausie ? His family moved to aus so that he and his brother ? , could avoid call up and thus getting sent to Vietnam.
Yes Annie , if you stick your head above the parapet , it gets shot off, so to speak .
My head is like a sieve having been shot so many times ! , i must learn to duck ! lol .
-
Yes Annie , if you stick your head above the parapet , it gets shot off, so to speak .
My head is like a sieve having been shot so many times ! , i must learn to duck ! lol .
That's the problem, Russ, never been one for ducking the issue! Right is right, wrong is wrong - no grey in my life ;D ;D
-
I think it unlikely that Scotland really will vote for full independence once the costs are thought through. Far more likely is a demand for more delegation of powers. That's the real argument.
The West Lothian question is highly relevant. If Scotland decides to split then England has to have a say in how it does it because the deed cannot happen in a vacuum.
A completely independent Scotland would have its own fiscal policy which may differ from England's. That means that sharing a currency would be a bad idea for one or the other. The process of creating a new currency for a country is pretty fraught. It's mechanically pretty easy but would leave the country in the hands of the markets and the speculators, so fiscal freedom may be severely constrained.
There are 27 members of the EU plus Norway and Switzerland. Those two have had to negotiate separate trade agreements with the EU and found themselves on the wrong end of EU-wide legislation that affects them drastically but over which they have little say. Thus there is a case for Scotland to join the EU - except that new members are also required to join the Euro. The lack of a common fiscal policy is the reason for the mess that the Euro is now in, and is eventually going to be fixed. Probably. But for Scotland this means bowing to the EU's policies and this could be a great deal less appealing that sticking with Sterling and its constraints.
Presumably Scotland would take control of the Royal Bank of Scotland, still headquartered in St Andrew Square. Good luck with that, and the establishment of a central bank with full regulatory responsibility for one of the worlds largest and most diversified banks. Scottish banks have rather a poor record recently.
What with setting-up equivalents of the MoD and all the other ministries, a DVLA, an HMRC and building an embassy in half the world's capitals that's a pile of jobs for Scottish grandees, all of which has to be paid-for by somebody. The multi-award winning parliament building didn't set a good precedent. But I suppose Gogarburn might be available: its former use as a mental hospital notwithstanding.
Just be careful what you wish for. The English have done the Scots many wrongs over the centuries, but that is the past. The future isn't what it used to be.
-
what i wish for is the gobshite that is written about this yet to be decided by the population of Scotland to stop
had waterhouse researched or did know a small percentage of what he/she wrote they would know that the headquarters of the rbs is based at gogarburn yes it was a former mental hospital which makes it all the more laughable given the current world economic f*** up that these money wankers created trying to outperform each other
and on the building of the new headquarters of rbs it was built with coloured foreign nationals paid the minimum wage and housed in accommodation on site that they had to pay for from there minimum wages
was that harking back to the old colonial days :farmer:
-
I know a great deal more about RBS than you do, Robert. And a lot of other things too.
The registered office remains 36 St Andrew Square, but that's just a technicality. Many inebriated people have joined John Hope on the horse in the front garden, and the building has an awesome domed ceiling, but its just a branch, has been for years.
Gogaburn is now just another admin office with none of the principal business units based there. Retail, corporate banking, Direct Line and the investment bank are all run from England and the CEO is based in London. Gogarburn is and always was a damned expensive white elephant, one of many.
I don't have an axe to grind on this subject and I don't have a view either way as to what should happen. All I'm saying is that it isn't a simple decision and it affects other people
-
No doubt we/I will find out whats going to happen one day, all I know is the rich will still be rich and the poor still poor no matter who rules!!!!!!!!! Not sure anyone knows whats going to happen the polititians have got us by the goolies!!!
-
Sandy do an internet search for goups of people for and people against the independence & the referendum etc..
Then immerse yourself in the stuff from both sides of the situation , then leave it for a few days and let your sub consious mind sort the fly muck out from the pepper.
At the end of the day your thoughts might well be what is good for you and no one else , but at least you will have seen /heard a bit more away from this forum which is supposed to be harmonious and friendly .
Politics on a site as good as this have a tendency to upset that Status Quo
-
Thanks.......the best advice so far :wave:
-
well waterhouse only an investment banker would take the air of superiority and your dislike of the Scots and welsh :farmer:
-
Predictable and wrong on all counts.
-
Now boys, put your handbags away! ;D
-
Please keep this on topic and stop the personal attacks. Any more and I'm in the mood to hand out some bans.
Please temper your opinions with a little humility and respect for others who may have a different world view.
Thank you. :)
-
it will be the voting people of Scotland that will decide irrespective if they can claim ancestry back to the Pict's or if it is Ali from the corner shop
all this speculation and predictions of what will happen or wont happen only leads to confusion and the wrong decision being voted for
Dan you have a fantastic site here after waterhouses condemnation i trawled his postings that are listed that is were he has written he was/is (does not do the traveling now doing conference calls from home) an investment banker and his dislikes :farmer:
-
How interesting, I just read this article and made me worry more...remember I only asked and have no opinion and need to find out as much as possible and wanted some clarity on here and not personal attacks by anyone to anyone, thats silly, we are all entitled to our opinions and we all have our own economy and life style etc to worry about, what do others think ?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jan/14/scottish-independence-alistair-darling (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jan/14/scottish-independence-alistair-darling)
-
I have to admit that although I am a member of the SNP, I am not sure what is best either. That is why I really do think we need until 2014 to see how all the arguments and discussions pan out, and I am very disappointed that the Government is trying to force an earlier decision, and an 'either or' one at that. I don't think there is ANYONE on this forum who can tell us exactly what way Scotland should go. I feel we do suffer somewhat from the English Parliament's decisions, but at the same time there are benefits, and perhaps the Devo Max is the best option overall. I just don't know - but I am willing to listen to everything before I put my cross on any piece of paper. So bring on the discussion and let's wait until 2014
-
That's what I thought....a difficult time for this sort of change, I do see the need to keep the Scottish culture and heritage etc, as I said a lot earlier, despite what politicians say, I wonder how being independent will effect future investments, house prices etc Its nice to be passionate but sometimes we need to weigh things up without the passion!!!!! ...Oh well......we will see...maybe Mystic Meg has the answer???....wonder if she is on the forum!
-
politics and religion is something i never get involved in, surely it is best to wait and see when it is nearer the time of voting. Everyone is entitled to there own oppion, but slagging it out over a public forum is not the answer. Yes Robert does know a lot and I dare say waterhouse also knows a lot too but there is NO ONE BETTER THAT ANOTHER ON THIS FORUM ;) ;)
-
An Independant Scotland would mean the break up of the United Kingdom....
-
I dont have any strong views on Scotland getting its independance one way or the other.... (my scottish side of the family left for England too many generations ago)
What I wonder about is this 'middle ground' or second option?
would that mean the rest of UK copuld have a say as well? afer all, we will have to chip in to pay for it as you can bet your bottom dollar that they wont want the bad bits, just the good ones.
At the same time, we could devolve England so that Welsh and Scottish MP's cant have a say in English affairs....
Seriously though, re the forces and bases in Scotland, I have served with people in the British Army from a number of countries and served in bases across the world. They dont have to be English/Welsh/Irish and in those countries.
Time will tell, and until it does we keep guessing.
Oh well, its time to pack now, off to Dundee tomorrow.
Nic
-
Oh well, its time to pack now, off to Dundee tomorrow.
Nic
Enjoy - we're just up the road in Carnoustie if you fancy a cuppa :wave: