The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: SallyintNorth on October 14, 2011, 10:44:03 am
-
I thought I would start another topic for this ongoing discussion, to which we could route spillovers from Marketplace when crossbreeds are advertised.
I'll bring the discussion from the Boxador ad here next.
-
Here's the link from the Marketplace ad for Boxadors :
I must admit that i agree with Doganjo's sentiments (and I hope that i am understanding them properly.).. that it is bizzarre that people can charge hundreds and hundreds of pounds for puppies which are, after all, mongrels!! ...and that because there is ...probably... not a Mongrel Breed Society to regulate and ensure the health of the breeding programme the puppys could have all sorts of health issues!! Is that right Annie??
It's an ongoing debate and there are different views.
It's been a fantastic development over my lifetime that pedigree breeders are now so knowledgeable about the disease risks of their breed(s), and that they have the availability now of so many tests to help them assess the likely health of any offspring they are planning. There's quite a bit of awareness now amongst the puppy-buying public, too, all of which has made a huge improvement in the lot of most pedigree dogs.
Good, reputable and careful breeders like doganjo then understandably get upset when they see other people breeding any puppies - whether pedigree or crossbreed - without making use of the available health checks.
The other viewpoint is that by crossing two breeds who do not share the same health issues, hybrid vigour plus halving or removing the risk of any of the diseases of either parent breed should result in healthy pups. (Depending on the genetic inheritance mechanisms, the risk may be almost entirely negated, but would at worst be halved where the second breed has no genetic predisposition to the condition.)
It would be hard to argue for not having health checks for any conditions which can still be expressed even if only one parent contributed a predisposing gene. And you could say negligent in any case to propogate into the worldwide gene pool the genes of a dog expressing significant predisposition to disease
The other aspect of the debate is the 'cross or mongrel' versus pure-bred one. Some of us like, even prefer, bitzers and other non-pedigree types, and some love their breeds and can't understand why anyone would deliberately mix one lovely breed with another.
Now, I am a sheep farmer in the north of England. There quite possibly wouldn't be sheep farmers in the north of England if it weren't for the North Country Mule, a ewe whose mother is a hill sheep (usually Swaledale or Blackface) and whose father is a Blue-faced Leicester. The best attributes of both parents combine to make the Mule a magnificent ewe for breeding fat lambs.
(And I could tell a very similar story about the Blue-Grey cow, whose mother is a Galloway and father a Whitebred Shorthorn.)
So does that mean that every Labradoodle will be an intelligent, non-moulting, soft-mouthed, retrieving family dog? Well, no. Some will, and some won't. The farmers in these hills have bred Swales and Blackies for the production of top quality mules for generations upon generations. The Blue-faced Leicester now comes in two variants - one a pure-bred blue-faced one, bred for rosettes as a BFL in a BFL class and the other often speckledy-faced and -legged, bred for the production of the optimum mule when used on a Swale or Blackie. His rosettes come from the pen of his mule ewe lambs. Rarely if ever will a tup of the first type produce the best mules, and conversely, rarely if ever will a tup of the second type win rosettes in a BFL class.
So, whilst I am a fan of crossbreeds and mongrels, I do completely understand where doganjo and others are coming from in feeling that people are misled into thinking that they know what they'll be getting when they buy a first cross of two pedigree dogs of different breeds. And that therefore it is unreasonable for breeders to charge, and customers to pay, similar or even higher fees for the pups of such an alliance as they would for purebred pups of either parental breed.
My take is this. I think some of these 'designer crosses' really have legs - the best make super dogs, really suited to 21st century life. I would like breeders to continue to develop these crosses, to gain understanding of the characteristics of the parents which produce the best and most consistent outcomes in the pups, and in time to evolve strains of the parental breeds which are most suited to using for breeding the crossbred pups. In order for these breeders to do this, they have to be able to produce and sell litters of the crossbred pups at a reasonable price.
At the end of the day, I think we all want only healthy pups to be produced, for whom there will be sufficient knowledgeable and capable homes to give the dogs happy lives.
And after we get that, world peace next, yeah? ;) :D
-
Fare comments Sally but as I have said before I object to being preached to by people who are members of an organisation that has over the years done more harm to some breeds than people could ever do selling a few designer dogs.
The Kennel club has been disowned by most big companies who steer well clear of any association and in my opinion quite rightly.
Also why is it that a dog of mixed breed is a mongrel whereas a pig,sheep,cow or horse is just a crossbreed, could that be down to pedigree breeders. If my pedigree Lab mates with a pedigree collie the pups are cross breeds from pedigree parents. ???
-
Also why is it that a dog of mixed breed is a mongrel whereas a pig,sheep,cow or horse is just a crossbreed, could that be down to pedigree breeders. If my pedigree Lab mates with a pedigree collie the pups are cross breeds from pedigree parents. ???
I think there is sometimes a degree of using the term 'mongrel' in a derogatory sense. (For those of us who love our mongies, no offence should be taken, of course! ;D)
When I were a gal, you had :
- pedigree : anything where both parents were the same breed, and their parents and so on. May or may not have had papers to prove it but properly should have been called purebred rather than pedigree if no papers
- first cross : the outcome of a mating between two purebred dogs of different breeds
- (other) cross : a purebred on anything else, or a combination of a maximum of two breeds (but could be two first crosses crossed, or 1/4 one breed, 3/4 the other, etc)
- mongrel : anything involving more than two breeds, or of uncertain parentage
First crosses were popular even then; we didn't have designer clothes then let alone designer dogs! :D
In the late 80s I was adopted by a couple of stray bitches. They were clearly sisters but were more dissimilar than similar. Up until then I had always described non-purebred dogs in terms of the (major) breeds in them - Lab x Collie, Collie X, terrier-type, etc - now, with these two, I became convinced that some mongrels were so far removed from any purebred (in Kennel Club terms) ancestry that there should be another term for a 'pure mongrel'!
Taking this further, back then there were distinct regional types of mongrel. My part of the midlands we had a medium sized brindly sort of a smooth-coated one and a rough-coated, slightly larger, often sandy or red-coloured, one. Other areas would have more dark-coloured wire-haired terrier-type ones, or smooth-coated black-and-white medium-sized ones, for instance. These were the dogs that roamed the streets and parks where the working population was most dense. They mostly had homes, but would wander at will, returning home for a feed and a warm hearth when they wanted. These days, very few dogs roam, and the 'native mongrels' have perhaps all but died out.
-
I agree with both of you, the points you both make are valid and well evidenced, and I also admit that my use of the word mongrel was not the best.
However, I do stand by my point that it is, to me, weird that the breeder of a cross breed/or mongrel...given a hybrid name (labradoodle, jackadoodle, jackayorkie, yorkawawa, pugadane...and so on) can command equivelant or even higher prices than those selling purebred registered dogs. The former has no requirements to pay for registration with a society, or obligation to register the pups and is not regulated by said society; the latter has these things to contend with....and probably more!
one of my favourite entertainments is to look at adverts for puppies and just laugh at the prices expected . But as my husband would say.... 'market forces' !!
I have a young collie bitch from very good working dog lines, her relatives were competing in Trials on TV the other week, others are Champions working all over the world. Yet more work hard for their living around this country as sheep dogs. She came to me registered, vaxcinated, chipped wormed etc. for £300, and I got the pick of most of the litter!
I also have a Border Terrier X collie..£50 from the local rescue centre. Hes a real character and very proud of himself. I clip Oddy every so often, for comfort reasons. One year he was fully clipped except from a tuft of hair at the end of his tail. That year when asked his breed I called him a 'Manchurian Gerbil Terrier'.... I was offered hundreds and hundreds of pounds for him as a stud dog...pestered for contact info for breeders. ;D ;D ;D
Its all in the name.
Emma T
-
I also have a Border Terrier X collie..£50 from the local rescue centre. Hes a real character and very proud of himself. I clip Oddy every so often, for comfort reasons. One year he was fully clipped except from a tuft of hair at the end of his tail. That year when asked his breed I called him a 'Manchurian Gerbil Terrier'.... I was offered hundreds and hundreds of pounds for him as a stud dog...pestered for contact info for breeders. ;D ;D ;D
Its all in the name.
Great story. ;D ;D
On similar lines, I used to have an 'East Anglian Mountain Dog'. Hardly anyone did a double-take, although you would see some people wandering off looking a bit thoughtful... :D (Yep, that's right, flattest county in three countries. :D)
-
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
ET
-
interesting view points on this subject i breed collie dogs not registered or anything these pups have had good success at agility and have had one go on to be a mountain rescue dog if i could get £300 per pup i would be dancing all year round i did hear of one farmer that bought a trained sheepdog i could do everything asked at the demo and when he got it home totally useless (it was the sheep that had been trained not the dog)
pedigree pigs verses mongrel pigs is something that should get aired as well but does not command the high prices that are common in the dog world :farmer:
-
I don't know a whole lot about this subject but surely widening the gene pool would be good thing for the dogs? I don't understand how eventually pure breeds aren't just all interbreeding?
I was reading about the increase in mixed race marriages (in humans) the other day and apparently they believe this will lead to more robust, healthy children that would be able to cope with changes in the environment better as the greater gene pool has more options.
-
some of the true doggie lovers will come on and explain the line breeding malarkey
i do not believe in this close breeding of any animal it only creates problems for latter on it is best to get something totally unrelated to breed from sometimes this is not always possible given the small number of some of the species and then you have to try just that little bit harder :farmer:
-
I have no objections one way or the other, What I will say is these so called designer dogs seem to be popular can fetch good prices and there are people who are catering for this market. Cross bred dogs are not anything new. Lurchers are cross bred and some shepherds like a beardy cross border. Border lakeland terriers have there followers. Horses for courses
-
for the sake of debate.
surely all types of dog are the result of selective breeding from the various types of canine across the continents. so mans intervention IS the catalyst for the development of new types.
i can fully understand the need to be responsible when breeding, surely the whole point is to breed out negatives such as disease and physical weaknesses, and to breed in desirable qualities, if these desirable qualities happen to be desirable due to fashion, then that has to be accepted as valid too, as has always been the case. dogs have always been crossbred to produce workers and companions.
it seems to me that there is no such thing as a 'purebreed'. the term relates solely to a set of standards artificially implemented by man.
however to willfully and with full understanding, breed a dog with inherent genetic life debilitating or even life threatening problems in the name of fashion, i believe to be morally wrong.
-
The other viewpoint is that by crossing two breeds who do not share the same health issues, hybrid vigour plus halving or removing the risk of any of the diseases of either parent breed should result in healthy pups. (Depending on the genetic inheritance mechanisms, the risk may be almost entirely negated, but would at worst be halved where the second breed has no genetic predisposition to the condition.)
This is not actually strictly true. Dogs do not automatically have hybrid vigour. If an untested Labrador is mated to an untested Poodle, both breeds having, for the sake of argument, hip dysplasia rife in their lines, it is quite possible for the offspring to have HD problems too. Same goes with many other inherited diseases.
My stance is that any dog that is to be bred from should
A) have proven success is some field or other - anything at all - agility, obedience, field work, tracking, showing - anything,
B) have been tested for the known inherited diseases for that breed, prior to being mated, and
C) that if an accidental mating occurs the bitch owner should have the mis alliance vaccination for their bitch
Only then can we expect dogs of any breed, crossbreed, or mongrel to have the benefit of a long, happy, healthy life for the following reasons:
There would be less dogs so
1) their value would be more appropriate
2) They would be more appreciated
3) They would be healthier
In addition, there would be less reason to have them destroyed like the hundreds of thousands which are put down right now. The Dogs Trust doesn't put healthy dogs down but local authorities and other charities on keep them for a short period of time. This is why I am against these designer dogs - they are a fashion which can be dropped at any time. My friend had a litter of doodles which took 6 months to sell and i believe she still has two of them. She and I both have the facilities to look after and exercise any puppies we do not sell at 8 weeks but how many others do?
-
Lets be completely honest here anyone who breeds dogs whatever breed does so for money and all the dressing up in the world can not get away from that, If the situation was any different dogs would be free or sold at the cost for rearing etc. Or am I talking rubbish ?
-
Lets be completely honest here anyone who breeds dogs whatever breed does so for money and all the dressing up in the world can not get away from that, If the situation was any different dogs would be free or sold at the cost for rearing etc. Or am I taking rubbish ?
i beg your pardon
i have been in my chosen breed for about 20 years, in that time i have had 3 litters and have only ever sold one pup to some very good friends, that sale in no way covered my costs.
the reason some people breed dogs is because they believe they have a superb example of the breed and that they have managed to gain the use of an equally good stud dog. in my case i wanted more dogs as pets and as workers, with absolutely no financial gain whatsoever.
kn
-
the problem with cross breeds for me is that when someone buys a dog iys usually as a pup, so cute and adorable, that pup might grow up to look like its mum, who might also look cute and manageable, but it could grow up to look like dad, or any variant in between mum and dad, and that could be more of a hand full. so that dog is not manageable as an adult. hence rescue kennels end up picking up the pieces.
most breeders of mongrels (muts, crossbreeds) no offence meant dont bother telling buyers about the pitfalls of owning this type of dog ie my dogs are working siberian huskies, they malt like you wouldnt believe and they are not trustworthy when let off lead, so if you cross a sibe and whatever and get a designer utonogen is that dog also not to be trusted off lead. does the new owner get that info.
kn
-
Lets be completely honest here anyone who breeds dogs whatever breed does so for money and all the dressing up in the world can not get away from that, If the situation was any different dogs would be free or sold at the cost for rearing etc. Or am I taking rubbish ?
Like most generalisations, that one will have its exceptions.
I can think of at least one. Farmers with a really good working bitch will usually try to get a litter from her with a good working dog. The pups will either be retained on the farm or sold to other farmers wanting working dogs - and not for anything like the £300 I've recently seen collie pups for sale on here. (I would expect to get an adult, trained working collie, ready for farm work, for £300.) In fact, around here, it is regarded as really rather distasteful to breed a working bitch for profit.
-
Oh Sally... ;) Do you think i have been ripped off??? I thought i was getting a good deal there. :o
The way i looked at it when you take the cost of feeding the bitch, her vet bills, full vaccinations (they even came and collected Meg to take her to the vet for her last lot) microchipped, registered, and all that documentation.... feeding the puppies during weaning... I felt that if there was any profit it would be pretty minimal. ;) ;) This was a litter that was bred really for them to have their own pup, not primarily as a profit making excercise.
Anyway she is worth every penny to us. . ;D ;D..and if you look at the papers and compare that with £700-£800 for a crossbreed pet... or £1000 for a pug - i am happy !!
As they say 'Market Forces'....its what people are prepared to pay.
LOL... if someone was to come to me and say, offer £200 a head for my lambs,,, would i say 'NO, I'll just sell them at the market for £80' - probably not!!
Or those wellies that we buy....are they really worth £50-£100 ?????
:wave: :wave: :wave: Emma T
-
Oh Sally... ;) Do you think i have been ripped off??? I thought i was getting a good deal there. :o
Then you have a good deal. The best deals are ones where both sides feel they have done well. ;D
-
True True !! ;D ;D ;D
We are very happy with Meglet.....Megatron
Shes happy here!! and that is more important...
Emma T xx :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
-
A litter once in a blue moon, we wont count that. Its funny how people think that they have to justify themself, does nobody agree that the vast majority of pups breed are sold for profit or are you to busy painting youself whiter than white
-
Our neighbour has a poodle x Jack Russell and she's gorgeous (the dog, not the neighbour, although she's very nice as well). We met a Border Terrier x poodle last week - she was gorgeous too. I'm wonderng if we should just get a poodle next time ;D
-
A litter once in a blue moon, we wont count that. Its funny how people think that they have to justify themself, does nobody agree that the vast majority of pups breed are sold for profit or are you to busy painting youself whiter than white
Not sure what you are commenting on here, or whose post/bit of post you are replying to?? :-\ :-\
Need more detail, Sir!! :) :)
Emma T :dunce: :dunce:
-
Our neighbour has a poodle x Jack Russell and she's gorgeous (the dog, not the neighbour, although she's very nice as well). We met a Border Terrier x poodle last week - she was gorgeous too. I'm wonderng if we should just get a poodle next time ;D
In my view they are a very underestimated dog - but some strains are now so highly-strung having been bred (in my view) for their looks rather than their temperament, you have to exercise a bit of discretion in which you select. I think the overbreeding (again, my opinion) has affected the standard (large) and toy (smallest) the most; I think the majority of miniature (middle-sized) poodles are intelligent, affectionate dogs who make great family pets - and they don't moult, either! ;D
-
well i am not whiter than white and i do not make myself out be something i am not
we breed our pups because we have a male and a female dog both collies some pups we have kept but the most have been sold on to i hope good homes (if rolls royces were free we would all have one) anybody that sells pups should make money as opposed to anybody that breeds pigs i know the quality of the dogs i have and there potential :farmer:
-
On the poodle front there are two working poodles living on this farm. Both are trained gundogs and absolutely delightful. Although standards they are much smaller than the boy I had some years ago. I lost my boy when he developed gastric torsion for the third time and I took the decision that to put him through major surgery yet again was too much for him.
As for the majority of pups being sold for profit I suppose it depends to some extent how you define profit. If in true commerical terms, offsetting the cost of the bitch, any stud fees, veterinary fees, testing fees for hips, eyes and the like and the ongoing costs of feeding and caring for a bitch over her lifetime then with say two litters as the likely maximum then I doubt many show a profit. If however you are talking about some money back to help offset those costs then the picture may change.
-
Robert well done , an answer steeped in reality. I to in the past have sold pups namely working terriers they did not have a kc pedigree but were bred for there working qualities only the best were bred from and the bit of money I made helped pay for the upkeep of my dogs. Most times I would breed the terriers to get a pup on two for myself to keep the line going and the surplus would be sold. I usually had a waiting list for the pups Most but not all went on to be working terriers.I feel I need to justify myself to no one as my intentions were always honerable towards my dogs, they gave of there best and that is what I strived to do. I used to go to working terrier shows and at first it was just a day out to talk working terriers with like minded people but gradually things started to change more folks got the bug [ would go to any lengths to get a rosette] and proper working terriers became less and more and more none workers were being showed the people also changed becoming less friendly and turning up with loads of dogs, churning out loads of litters to get that winning show dog. Not my kind of people.
-
On a lighter note... bigchicken, I wonder what you think of this story.
At our local Hound Show, as well as the Hound classes there are Terrier classes and a Pet class for the kiddies. (If I had my way there'd be Collies, Lurchers and Terrier Racing too, but it's only a small show ;D)
Two very nice working Border Terrier bitches (sisters) cleaned up in the Border Terrier classes this year - proper dogs, you'd have liked them very much - and one went on to deservedly win Champion Terrier.
As soon as they came out the ring with their rosettes all over 'em, a couple of wee lassies trotted up and asked if they could borrow them for the Pet class. Their owner, not thinking I suppose, said yes and off the girls went with their 'pets'. No prizes for guessing who came 1st in the Pet class...
(Well I'm not sure we can say very much... last year our niece won the red rosette in the Pet class with our Reserve Champion (Local Pack) Hound Puppy - but at least we're related and she knew the dog!)
I suppose we'd better think about making some guidelines for the Pet class, eh? :D
-
Great wee story yes some of the hunt shows have a good family vibe. kids will be kids fame is a fickle thing :P owned by exibiter should cover this maybe I have a soft spot for the border terrier if you get a worker its usually is a good one I remember two very fondly. None of them belonged to me they were top workers and probably would never have even been placed at a show. Its as they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder and to me they were different class.
-
the whole world and its mother seem to be trying to breed and sell puppies but not K.C registered. Adds often say checked by the vet but this does not mean the dog and bitch. For sale but no papers. There are loads of staffies for sale but look at the rescue centres and they are full of them. One of the best dogs we had when our children were young was a collie cross lab. He was free as a pup and a wonderful dog, he lived to the grand old age of 15 and never once cost us a vet bill apart for his injections now I see the same for sale for £300 in out area. would I pay that for a crossbred dog of that type, yes if parents were in good health and there had been no problems that were know down the line. As for breeders only breeding for money, maybe some but you will find that the true dog lover who breeds and shows their animals do not do it for the money. By the time the bitch and dog have had all the tests done for hips, eyes etc, feed the bitch in pup then the puppies profit is not something you will find a lot off and many take puppies back if for some reason the new owner has to give up the dog. People who do it for money are not all that interested in what they produce but I bet the tax man would be ;)
-
Lets look look at the profit to be made selling pups. small pedigree terrier pups selling for £300. the bitch has lets say four pups that's £1200. lets break it down a bit stud fee usually the price of a pup -£300. extra feed for bitch and pups -£100. vet check and vaccinations for pup's £180. there can be a discount for four or more pups but I wont count that. registration with KC £100. I make that a profit of £520 per litter six litters would be £3120. lets look at a Labrador, pups selling for £400. the bitch has lets say five pups that's £2000. Stud fee £400. extra feed for bitch and pups £300 vet check and vaccinations pup's £225 KC registration £125. that makes costs of £1050 so far, Now we come to the hip score test for bitch that's £300. eye test £50 these costs are a one of so lets say the bitch has three litters that would be lets say £120 per litter that's a profit of £830 per litter four litters would be £3332. This is a rough idea of costs for the normal pet dog advertised in the papers etc. I have tryed to be reserved with my pricing my vet prices were taken from a local vet. I have not taken into account the cost of keeping the bitch when not having pups as I believe most folks would have the dog anyway. Your comments will be most welcome.
-
You missed out the time taken to look after the bitch and the pups, lots of cleaning, heat lamp where needed, adds in the papers. checking out people. time wasters, everyone gets them. if all cost are to be taking into account then the owners time should be as well. :)
-
OK so I forgot a few small think, that blows it all profit gone, All those people breeding pups for the love of it just marvelous that just restores my faith the human nature. ;)
-
1. If some one wants something they will pay for it, often people seek out the unusual, they may not keep it or treat it properly but the same goes for pure bred dogs, people buy a dog and not always realise what they are going to end up with. Like anything, the cost depends on supply and demand.
2. Breeders have thier different reasons, some JUST for the money, some because the want to say they have created a wonderful animal by thier choosing and some, for the fun.. the idea that tests to show how fast, attractive or aglile they are is silly, a lot of people JUST want pets, any other owners will seek out dogs with certificates, it so reminds me of taking children to beauty pagents. Health checks are a different matter and I agree with them, well most of the time.
3 How many people on here have hobbies? or drink? or eat too much food? know one adds up that cost as you only get pleasure out of it, so thats my view, for some its a nice hobby, you have a nice dog and have nice pups and sell them to some one else who also wants a nice dog...a bit of money for doing it is a bonus, not a champ anything!!!!!!!!!!
-
there was a family not far from us that breed Irish wolfhounds they had a litter of 12-14 pups and were selling them for £1200 each now that is profit is it not on the tax man being interested we were interviewed recently and the pups were there at her feet asked if we should include them in the cash transactions not interested :farmer:
-
I've done a rough costing and got a terrible shock - this is without taking ANY of my time raising the pups from birth to 8 weeks, nor of the registration fees and Assured Breeder Scheme membership, nor my KC affix annual fee of £17, nor the cost of showing my two other Home Bred Brittanys to promote what I breed. God knows why I do it! ::) This is for two litters - one of 3 and one of 5 (6th one placenta detached which can happen at any time and meant she would abort if i didn't rush her to the vet for a Caesar to save her, and any pups if we could. Luckily we got five out in time and brought them back to life - all five are working dogs)
Cost of Belle 450
Cost of Allez 550
Feed costs 5720
Vaccinations per dog for lifetime so far 300
Caesar op due to dead puppy 479
Certificates for bobtails 75
Hip scores Belle and Allez 270
Health checks for both prior to mating x 2 80
puppy feeding costs - 8 pups for 6 weeks 220
Showing costs in order to prove quality - challenge certificates
5 shows per year(25), entries £25 each dog, travel £60 per show 2125
Total costs 10269
Pups sold 6 @ £500, 1 @ £400 (hernia) 3400
Total loss 6869
-
You missed out the time taken to look after the bitch and the pups, lots of cleaning, heat lamp where needed, adds in the papers. checking out people. time wasters, everyone gets them. if all cost are to be taking into account then the owners time should be as well. :)
I didn't include these either. Oh and as Sandy says most folk aren't interested in certificates, they just want a nice dog. But in a specialist, fairly rare breed like mine I HAVE to get these certificates, show ones for mine, but I also ensure they are gundog trained too, so they remain true to their French origins as dual purpose - well triple purpose really - they are pets too. Pets with Purpose! ;D
-
I don't think anyone would dispute that there are people who breed to make money but Dogango's analysis is I am afraid absolutely typical of the caring pedigree breeder.
-
The showing will I hope pay off - Belle can have one last litter before she is 8 next May. We did 'The Double' yesterday at Midland Counties Championship Show under well respected Norwegian Judge Per Iversen - Belle got the bitch Challenge Certificate (her second) and Allez the dog CC and Best of Breed (his first CC, but he has 3 Reserve CCs) I am floating on air this morning! Belle has come into season so fingers crossed I can mate them soon.
-
Well Done Belle, no wonder you are delighted ;D
-
I've worked and trained ESP's for most of my life... Some have gone on to be very successful gun dogs and some have been lovely pets.
When my last springer retired at about Severn years of age I was at a bit of a loose end, mainly because I thought that I'd never find another working springer like him again.
The wife's friend had a litter of sprockers going and we thought long and hard about having one. Once I'd seen the size of mum who was a full cocker (And about the size of a large springer). We decided to have a pup.
This is his second season of working and I have to say he's the most attentive and easiest gun dog I've ever trained. He's got the softest mouth I've ever seen, he even gives a lamb bone back!!
So after years of saying that pedigree dogs are best as you know what your getting (To a certain degree ;) )
I'm converted.
Greg
-
I have never, nor would I ever, dispute that some crossbreeds are a good thing. I must however reiterate over and over that ALL dogs MUST be health tested prior to mating. And dogs should NOT be given a designer dog name in order to make huge sums of money. I also think it is time we had a compulsory dog licence back even if it meant I had to pay a fair bit as I have 4 dogs.