The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: melholly on September 13, 2011, 02:18:44 pm
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Hello all,
Not posted for a while, recent gales killed off the mast where we get mobile broadband from as poxy BT won't digitalise our exchange for 'proper' broadband. ANYWAY... am started to get a little worried about the winter. I don't want to get caught out as we can get a bit cut off here.
Most know I have 7 sheep (2 Polled Dorset Mums who will have their 2nd lambs in spring all things being equal) 2 PD lambs and 3 orphan lambs similar age... My question is a simple one I guess but one nagging me nonetheless in my greenness!
They all eat grass, grass and grass and every 3rd day (as a treat) some sheep nuts. Now when the frost arrives will they still eat just grass? and when the snow arrives what does everybody do? I am assuming I need to get some hay for them to eat whilst snow is on the ground? Or is it a case of during all the cold months, snow regardless, they should have hay as a supplement?
Thanks!
Mx
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Grass loses its nutritional content later in the year and when it is frosted, so although grazing will give the sheep something to keep their jaws happy, they won't be getting much feed from it. This is fine for non-breeding animals of some breeds, but certainly breeding ewes will need something more than that. I can really only tell you what we do for our Hebrideans, at 1000' in southern Scotland, where we can expect seriously below zero temps from Oct onwards, and several weeks of deep snow (our sheep can scrape it away to a depth of about 8-9" but no deeper). We start putting ad lib hay out in late Oct, or earlier if we judge the weather is severe, and continue until we have grass growth again in April. Sometimes we have a couple of weeks of grass growth in Feb but that is just an extra treat for the sheep. As well as hay, our sheep have a 'Crystalix' type bucket over the winter, and are fed a general coarse mix - the primitives don't need the high protein feeds available such as ewe pencils and can't really get their mouths around big rolls, and all that protein can make them scour. High protein feeds would be appropriate for your breed, on an increasing dose from 6 weeks before they are expected to start lambing. In addition, we feed willow and ash branches for extra vitamins and trace elements, as well as the fun for the sheep of stripping the bark.
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Hay adlib for mine as soon as we start to get ground frosts. Plus coarse mix for the pregnant ewes
One thing to be very aware of is the water freezing.
A few years ago I had the finest looking Jacob Tup you had ever seen, around late Feb i fetched the ewes into the barn ready for lambing along with the Jacob Tup. After a few days the tup started to go off his hay and then off the coarse mix he had as a treat. A few days passed and he started sucking in his stomach as though he had got griping wind pains, i called the vet who gave antibiotic straight away and then took blood samples.
The results came back with terrible news his kidneys where failing due to infection that the vet put down to the fact that sheep hate drinking freezing water through the winter months especially the tups and therefore was not flushing his kidneys through. The vet did say that he could have had the kidney problem before we purchased him and the cold water had brought it on. The outcome was that we had to have him destroyed.
Now i have the water in the barn with a small fishtank heater in so the water does not freeze, a bit over the top for a lot of big sheep farms but one i am happy with.
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Good point about the water pasture farm. My OH faithfully carries out buckets of warm water from the kitchen twice a day when it's freezing - which seems to be most of the winter. We have a gravity feed systrem from giant rainwater collection barrels but of course it all freezes up in winter. Another point with a horned tup is to make sure he can get his mouth down to water level if his horns get in the way.
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Last year (our first with sheep) we put out hay twice a day and some sheep nuts in the evening as a treat. We also had a mineral bucket out for them. We were advised not to over feed them and told 'you don't want fat lambs causing problems at lambing' :farmer:. Our mixture of Hebrideans and Shetlands all came through fine (all pregnant). This year none of them should be pregnant but we plan on feeding them about the same.
Pasture Farm: Good point about the water. We broke the ice at least twice a day in their water buckets. We also have a small stream they can drink from although I've never seen any of them drink from it either in winter or summer.
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If our ewes are in good condition at the end of tupping (which they usually are) so that's the middle of December at the latest, they get ad lib hay and access to a feed block (Crystalyx Standard) over winter. I usually start them on a bit of hard feed about 6 weeks before lambing, so from about mid February, partly to get them nice and tame for coming in at night over the lambing period.
Last year, I had them scanned by the vet but he couldn't tell if there were singles or twins (all were in lamb) so I just had to guess at an amount. With only six lambing, I can't really divide them up into a group expecting singles and one with multiple lambs, even if I know - it's just not manageable.
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I am a bit mystified by this bringing out warm water for the sheep - mine just eat snow! (and mainly haylage, no feed blocks until 6 weeks before lambing, and just a small amount of ewe mix and shreds when all-day frost/snow, increased a bit 6 weeks onwards before lambing).
It would have been impossible in the last winter to bring out warm water for both the sheep and the goats (goats got it, but then goats don't do snow!) - I still had a 170% lambing, only one ewe barren (she never came into season) and a problem free lambing season. No triplets either!
Funny thing though - I had 29 lambs, 21 of which were girls!
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Oh my goodness, I never appreciated the link between whats IN their feed to successful lambing. I was looking at it purely from a survival point of view, now I understand so much more thank you.
My 2 P Dorsets who will be covered hopefully Oct time I now have much better understanding that the protein/mineral make up of food is vital to a good lamb.
The others who were April lambs will obviously be kept for next year (store lambs is it?) and go to the ram next autumn but I think it's fair to help them along over the winter too as surely healthy lambs come from healthy mums?
Amazing how much goes into it all, it's so easy to take grass for granted! Oh and thanks for the haylage tip - I assumed I could only feed them pure hay for some reason.
Mx
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I only feed mine pure hay, ad lib ie I keep the hay racks full. From about the start of October to mid way through April (ie lambing). They have a mineral lick all winter and I change this to a pre-lambing one about 6 weeks before lambing, when i also start feeding ewe mix. Fortunately we have becks in each field so they usually keep running.
I don't tup mine til they're shearlings (18months old).
I have built shelters in the fields from pallet with tin sheet on top. The ewes use them, when it's very wet and the lambs certainly do.
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We lamb in December /January so we feed the ewes and shearlings according to what they are carrying, singles or twins
Last year with all that snow we fed hay on the ground and they ended up sleeping on it ! they were more happy to shovel snow away with their noses and pick at grass. This year we have bought a hay rack in preparation to hopefully save wastage
Still if we ever get planning for this blasted barn we might just get to lamb indoors!! what a lovely thought ;D
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If you don't have money for a hay rack get some horse hay bags and hang them around the field (small holes) it keeps them busy finding them and lessens wastage
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Or tie used feed bags at the top fill them with hay and cut a hole in the side and hang those up. Keeps the hay reasonably dry and the sheep occupied looking for the bags. Its not really practical with more than a few sheep though.
What level of hard feed are people giving? I was always told to build up to around a pound a head a day shortly before lambing. I imagine Poll Dorsets being larger sheep may need a little more?
And personally I love sugar beet shred as a way of ensuring condition.
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Please be very careful with using horse hay nets or feed sacks with holes cut in them. Sheep will enlarge the holes and get their heads stuck, sure as eggs is eggs, especially but not necessarily only horned breeds. Sometimes they will manage a twist or two and hang themselves, or get a foot stuck in there. It is far better to improvise something with rigid sides and a lid.
Even with a hay heck feldar you will find a fair amount of hay wasted - and there's no point picking it up and offering it again as they will not touch it. With the cost of hay as high as it is, and with making your own such a difficult job in bad weather, it's infuriating to see the wastage. I just look on it as wonderful compost/manure for the garden :)
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I tie them to the fence and have never had a problem with my flock but you must use small holed ones. Tie top and bottom to the fence and a little higher than the top of the head and they pull it out and eat it with surprisingly little waste and no tangling
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I tend to use feed sacks only in the nearest fields where I am checking once every two or three hours during lambing time in any event. I have to agree with Fleecewife on the subject of haynets, they are a complete pain with horned breeds and there is a real risk of sheep getting tangled up.
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We have fed haylage as well, but i am always worried about listeria doing this. We have made big bales again this year but we do have a lot of sheep so should use the bales quickly.
love the smell of it not so good when you get it on your clothes then stand by the aga!!
We use sugarbeet too, cracking stuff keeps condition on and gives ewes extra bit of energy especially when the weather is bad
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Re Hay nets, we've had a few eartags ripped out via haynets although never any sheep stuck. We bought an 8ft wheeled rack with a cover - it was expensive but I reckon it's saved a lot of hay. As Fleecewife says they do waste some and even if you pick it up and put it back in the rack, they won't eat it.
A friend of mine had a problem with her sheeps' eyes - as they pulled hay from a bag above their heads, the seeds fell into their eyes and caused terrible conjunctivitis, so just be aware of that.
Re haylage. It will go "off" if it's opened and not used quickly enough as will silage. That's why we use hay - we don't have the numbers for haylage or silage.
Like jaykay, we don't tup ours until they are 18 months old. Because we have small numbers, it's not practical to have too many groups, so we weaned the ewe lambs 10 days ago and yesterday we put them back in with the ewes and gimmers. Mums and daughters just ignored each other. All the females will stay together until just before the tup goes in, when the ewe lambs will be moved away. Once Leo's finished, the ewe lambs will go back in and all the females will run together "forever".
It's not the way a sheepkeeper with lots of sheep would do it, but it seems to work for us. Actually, it's quite interesting to see the family groups. Juno has a 2010 gimmer, Nellie, and two 2011 ewe lambs (Pixie and Poppy) and you often find the four of them grazing together. When this year's lambs were small, Nellie was often with them - big sister babysitting.
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It's quite interesting to see the family groups. Juno has a 2010 gimmer, Nellie, and two 2011 ewe lambs (Pixie and Poppy) and you often find the four of them grazing together. When this year's lambs were small, Nellie was often with them - big sister babysitting.
That's lovely. And running your untupped gimmers with their mothers gives the youngsters experience of lambs, so they won't be so surprised and shocked when, the next year, one seems to have popped out of their backsides! :D
There's no question that cattle and sheep form attachments - have mates in the herd / flock. It can be quite stressful for them to arbitrarily group them to suit our convenience, splitting up friends.
BH often tells about a pair of lambs he had once where he didn't at first realise the one was blind. The other used to look after it, go and fetch it when the flock was moving, keep it clear of ditches, etc.
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We don't tend to run mums and last years lambs together but it is a lovely thought. It is amazing though we have loads of sheep but we can still pickout whose mum is who and we know all our ewes individually; traits and personalities by the time they come to lamb.
The shearlings stay as a group until they have their first lamb just so we can give a bit of TLC and know how they are going to cope then we run them as two shears with the older girls and split according to what ram we want to use.
We had a NZ chap come to buy rams from us and he was amazed our ewe lambs were not in lamb ( we always put them out to tack for the winter) He said all ewe lambs lambed in NZ Otherwise you miss out on a years money.
I would prefer well grown shearlings myself i think having a lamb as a lamb knocks them to pieces
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I did it for one year I pick 10 of the best lambs i had, "A Lamb having a Lamb" not for me im afraid. They require a lot of TLC and all i got was VERY small lambs.
Each to their own i suppose
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We had some accidental hogg lambings in 2010 (turned out we had an incorrectly castrated rigg in with the ewe lambs; when the temperature went below -15 deg C his internal testicle stopped being so hot it killed his sperm!) 9 of the 10 girls did absolutely brilliantly, lambed mid-May without assistance, all reared their lamb (thankfully all singles) and went to the tup again late autumn. (The 10th had mastitis and couldn't rear her lamb.)
We were so pleased with them we bought some strong mule ewe lambs last year and put them to the tup in late November for late April lambs, along with a few of our earliest and strongest home-bred lambs.
They've done okay and the lambs are really good considering their mums were just babies themselves. We did take off a few second lambs and either fostered them or reared them as pets. (They've done okay too - thanks maybe to the Jersey milk!)
We won't tup any ewe lambs this year and will monitor how the bred-as-hoggs girls do next year compared to the other shearlings who were not tupped last year.
If we could be sure they'd all have singles it would be easier to decide to tup a few ewe lambs each year. But asking a one-year old ewe to rear two lambs and continue to grow herself is asking too much, we think. I suspect our 2010 crop were all singles precisely because, not knowing they were tupped, we didn't give the girls any extra feeding or special treatment at all. As soon as you start caking them, cosseting them, etc, they go and have twins!
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sally i would question your thinking on your last paragraph the quantity of lambs conceived is determined at the moment of tupping not some time after :farmer:
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sally i would question your thinking on your last paragraph the quantity of lambs conceived is determined at the moment of tupping not some time after :farmer:
Would nutrition in the couple of weeks following tupping not affect implantation? Do sheep abort / reabsorb part litters in hard times, like rabbits?
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YOU are correct ROSEMARY the nutrition/condition in the first third of pregnancy affects foetus implantation/ survival, death and re absorpstion is common and can be seen by the scanner .the advice is to hold condition for the first third
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I am a bit mystified by this bringing out warm water for the sheep - mine just eat snow! (and mainly haylage, no feed blocks until 6 weeks before lambing, and just a small amount of ewe mix and shreds when all-day frost/snow, increased a bit 6 weeks onwards before lambing).
It would have been impossible in the last winter to bring out warm water for both the sheep and the goats (goats got it, but then goats don't do snow!) - I still had a 170% lambing, only one ewe barren (she never came into season) and a problem free lambing season. No triplets either!
Funny thing though - I had 29 lambs, 21 of which were girls!
Same here Anke.
I've cut the flock down now but last winter I had 400 ewes plus followers (all the lambs which I finish and tups, home bred ewe hoggs) and there is no way I could have provided them with warm water, nor would they have been interested in it.
I do not feed hay if there is grass available. I feed the twin bearing ewes ewe rolls before lambing time, depending on their condition upto 6 weeks before, last year they were in tremendous condition and I did not feed them concentrates until 2 weeks before lambing and the single bearing ewes got nothing until they were actually lambing. Did not have a single case of TLD and the ewes maintained perfect condition through out.
One thing to remember is snow does not take condition off sheep like persistent rain and wind do. If they have hay in snowy conditions, they are perfectly happy as their backs are dry. They soon make their little tracks and it really doesn't bother them.
In snow conditions I give mine adlib hay. Whatever the weather I give them Crystalyx high energy tubs 6 weeks prior to lambing.
Every year is different and you have to judge what they need based on their condition.
If you have plenty of good dry storage for hay, buy as much as you can fit in, if you don't need it, it will be there for next year!
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I've never had much room for hay.
I don't feed sheep if there is grass available usually, but I did in the prolonged snow last year, it's usually beet pellets I'll feed em, you just have to be careful not to overfeed, since they seem to be more than capable of grazing through snow (I've watched them do it). Ewes have 'rockies' to lick most of the year. The thing that I do always remember to do is break the ice on the water trough, especially if it is cold and there is no snow for them to eat/drink (depending on how you look at it). I have a tiny field shelter I have access to for lambing and I will bring anything problematic in to deiver/'mother up', depending on what they need. I can't see the point in buying a hardy breed of sheep that will lamb outdoors and then bringing them in to lamb. My grazing is fairly overgrown in parts and there are a few thickets that they will lamb in if its raining hard.
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Hi all I have been reading the post about winter feeding some people mentioned sugar beet but never said how it was fed dry or soaked in water i have horsers and soak the beet overnite so now i am confused HELP :dog: :horse: :sheep: :&> :) Thanx
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I feed hay in the winter ad lib and a bit of sheep mix, more to keep them on the bucket and it keeps them handy. A bit about being in good nick at tupping time, I have a ewe who had pink eye and she took a bit longer than expected to recover and lost a lot of condition she managed to escape her pen and got caught with a tup she produced twins this was her second lambing, I was a bit surprised she didn't follow the norm. I never put her to the tup last year as she just needed a rest to recover and regain some condition.
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I feed sugar beet shred unsoaked for sheep. I introduce it slowly and feed it in addition to coarse mix for the ewes that are in lamb if I think they need a little more condition. The alpacas get alfabeet that doesn't need soaking and so does the ancient Shetland mare (over 30 but still enjoying life). But you are right if you are feeding sugar beet rather than a roll such as Alfabeet (which is made for horses) to equines then it must always be soaked throroughly.
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I normally do 3 buckets of soaked sugar beet, 1 for the horse and 2 to pop in the field so that the sheep don't raid the horses. It is very funny watching as it ends up being musical buckets as they all move to the next one and so on. Sheep being sheep we know the other bucket always tastes better than the one your at. My sheep also get small amount of pellets and hay through the coldest part of winter but the hay generally stays from end of october until the grass shoots start coming through
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Rosemary a lot of hill farm do run their ewe lambs with the ewes in the manner you describe. Some people even "breek" their ewe lambs and don't take them out when the tups go in. A guy I know still does this although it's an old fashioned thing now really and many people send their ewe lambs away to wintering to give them the best chance.
I generally have plenty of grass all year round so do leave the ewe lambs with the ewes until about now and may combine them during the winter depending on the weather. It's handy for teaching them to come to the feeding.
I have fed beet pulp pellets for years and don't soak them, just scatter them on the ground in a long line so the sheep have to forage for them. Not had any problems touch wood.
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We feed sugarbeet pellets on the ground unsoaked but we try not to feed to much hay before lambing, an old shepherd once told us too much dry hay can cause prolapses in late pregnant ewes. This chap had shepherded all his working life and did know a thing or two so we heed his advice.
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The key thing about prolapsing in late pregnancy is that she doesn't have much room for food, the lambs are taking it all up! High-performing ewes would normally be getting cake, usually in two feeds so that the rumen doesn't get overloaded.
I haven't heard about hay being a problem but could imagine any very wet and bulky feed meaning they either take in too much and haven't the room for it all, or can't eat enough as they haven't the room so don't get enough nutrients. Perhaps if they are eating dry hay they then drink a lot of water, which takes up room and also fills their bladder...?
Speaking of which - I haven't used sugar beet for sheep as at the moment it costs the same as cake, so we feed cake. But if you feed sugar beet dry, presumeably they need to drink water (like a dog or cat on dried food) - would this be something to think about when there is snow on the ground and the water troughs are frozen?
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One extra thing, we had a lamb injured this year when a loose wheel on a small IAE hay hake came off tipping the hake at one corner and a very young just castrated boy lamb crept underneath and somehow the thing tipped back and came down on his leg. He now has a permanent limp and probably wont be able to go to the abbatoir, may have to be PTS here or a home kill.
The hay hake is a great boon but just make sure all those wheels are on tight - it only took less than an hour for this poor chap to get hurt and there was nothing else in the field he could possibly have found to hurt himself on :-(
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Depends on the breed regarding prolapses. It's something you should cull heavily for. I have never had a prolapse in a Shetland or Cheviot x Shetland ewe, however I have done contract lambings where each morning I had about 4 ewes to sort out (different ones each day!).
If you feed sugar beet on the ground as I do, they eat snow along with the pellets. Never had a problem and my fields have streams running through most of them and the sheep don't bother to drink from them if there is snow on the ground, presumably because they prefer eating a bit of snow instead.
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I've been told in no uncertain terms that when the OH has ponies in the field - I cant put sugar beet shreds or pellets down unless in the creep feeders - so I guess they cant eat them without spending a long afternoon digging a big hole.
I try to feed in troughs where possible as its neater but normally line it up on the floor cos I never have enough troughs :)
When feed anything, haylage or hay to the sheep ablib on the floor I divide it into as many little piles as possible - it may seem like that wastes alot - but the bigger the pile the more they seem to walk and s**t on it - if I have four or five around a little pile they seem to just eat and get it down them.
I have not done any hay this year - gota buy it all in. :(
I have a supplier whos big bales last year were excellent - even had a choice of cut. I hope hes ok this year cos I am thinking of getting it in soon- I read the headline on the mail the other day. I know they are always doom and gloom but an early winter is just going to kill what grazing I have left and the wind will just burn off whats left.
Talking about winter at this point though is far more acceptable than seeing the first teco christmas advert.
- Winter Again....... arggg
Baz
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sally i would question your thinking on your last paragraph the quantity of lambs conceived is determined at the moment of tupping not some time after :farmer:
Would nutrition in the couple of weeks following tupping not affect implantation? Do sheep abort / reabsorb part litters in hard times, like rabbits?
I always thought it was the feeding in the weeks just BEFORE tupping which built the ewe up to fitness and she would produce more eggs?
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sally i would question your thinking on your last paragraph the quantity of lambs conceived is determined at the moment of tupping not some time after :farmer:
Would nutrition in the couple of weeks following tupping not affect implantation? Do sheep abort / reabsorb part litters in hard times, like rabbits?
I always thought it was the feeding in the weeks just BEFORE tupping which built the ewe up to fitness and she would produce more eggs?
I think it's all of the above. Farmers who want twins and triplets 'flush' the ewes by putting them on the very best of ground just before letting the tup in; as I understand it this will increase the number of eggs ripening and also aid implantation. I think Rosemary is also right, in that sheep, like pigs and rabbits, can abort / reabsorb foetuses if they don't have the correct conditions post-tupping.
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given that a ewe carries the lamb/lambs for 150 days approx and somebody said that the first 50 days are vital to the success of carrying the lambs through to birth
most tups go in on or about 5Th Nov now take last year for example November was wet and wild with snow from DEC on and yet the incidence of twins and triplets was more than any other year does that not blow that theory out the water :farmer:
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most tups go in on or about 5Th Nov now take last year for example November was wet and wild with snow from DEC on and yet the incidence of twins and triplets was more than any other year does that not blow that theory out the water :farmer:
No not at all. Normally most of us don't feed cake or hay or silage until after Christmas. There's grass for them but it's not especially nutritious at that time of year. Last year because of the snow we were all feeding good hay / silage and in our case cake too from mid-Nov.
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sally i was referring to where i stay the softie southerners got the snow later than us
and i was only using last year as an example :farmer:
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Excuse me, i was lambing in that southern snow i aint no softie! hmmmph
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sally i would question your thinking on your last paragraph the quantity of lambs conceived is determined at the moment of tupping not some time after :farmer:
Would nutrition in the couple of weeks following tupping not affect implantation? Do sheep abort / reabsorb part litters in hard times, like rabbits?
I always thought it was the feeding in the weeks just BEFORE tupping which built the ewe up to fitness and she would produce more eggs?
I think it's all of the above. Farmers who want twins and triplets 'flush' the ewes by putting them on the very best of ground just before letting the tup in; as I understand it this will increase the number of eggs ripening and also aid implantation. I think Rosemary is also right, in that sheep, like pigs and rabbits, can abort / reabsorb foetuses if they don't have the correct conditions post-tupping.
You are all correct - flushing ewes in the fortnight prior to tupping will generally cause a ewe to produce more eggs, so twins are more likely. I would recommend this if you keep a hill breed, and have the land to carry twins, but I wouldn't flush a naturally prolific breed such as Lleyns, as too many triplets, quads, even quins, are a total pain in the backside and are one of theose complications you can well do without! Flushing will also improve conception rates and you will get fewer repeats.
Ideally maintain a good level of nutrition for the fist six weeks post tupping - this will aid implantation and help the development of a really strong placenta. Ewes can often re-absorb one of twins if grub is abit tight after they have conceived. Having said that, they really don't need to be fat - in fact, overweight sheep will not hold to the ram as well as their leaner, fitter counterparts.