The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: Castle Farm on September 07, 2011, 10:28:02 pm
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Your opinion on this would be interesting.
I concider myself to be a small farmer.
I have 16 acres.
56 Llyen Sheep.
1 Welsh Cob riding Gelding.
437 chickens in about 12 breeds.
15 Ducks.
2 working Collies and a lazy Whippet.
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I reckon if you have over 400 of anything (other than fleas or red mites) then you are a farmer!
I have 40 acres but consider myself a smallholder as my biggest group is 40 ish sheep. Also Im a bit rubbish at even approaching breaking even so if I were a farmer it would be of the hobby variety to my shame.
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I was once told that the difference between a farmer and a smallholder can be seen in how they get in their sheep.
A farmer will drive them with a dog and/or a quad bike.
A smallholder calls them.
;D ;D
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I'm undecided between the two. About 58 acres, 23 breeding ewes and 28 lambs finishing. 5 head of cattle, 6 pigs, 12 chickens, 2 geese, four dogs, 2 cats. Not easy to break even, as Lachlan says.
Castle.. how do you manage 56 sheep on 16 acres!!?? Or do you have lambs still to finish?
Maggie
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I'm also intrigued by how much stock is on 16 acres. Never mind farmer, I think you must be a magician ;D
Does it matter - smallholder or small farmer? And why would it matter?
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I would consider myself a small farmer, even on 7.5 acres. I believe a smallholder to be someone who is doing it for 'the good life', sorry if this is against other opinions but around here smallholders are frowned upon and I feel part of the local farming community.
I have 18 breeding ewes, 4 pigs, 100 chicken, 40 ducks and a profitable vegetable garden. I run all the farm activities as a business, including separate accounts (another differentating point in my mind) and after 3 years of trading we are into profit, despite the poor pig market.
Thats my idea on the defining points between the two.
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i thought a farm is over 50 acres and a small holding is under 50 acres. :wave:
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i thought a farm is over 50 acres and a small holding is under 50 acres. :wave:
I wouldn't like to tell the farmers round here that, most of the family run farms are less than 50 acres.
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First of all, congratulations on making a go of your operation, GeorgieB82. That's no mean feat.
I run all the farm activities as a business, including separate accounts (another differentating point in my mind)
In these parts, real agricultural territory, the only accounts are the farm accounts. The household is a necessary part of the business. (Of course personal drawings and a proportion of the running costs of the house are regarded as personal income and taxed accordingly.)
As Rosemary says, why would it matter? Only maybe from any legislative point of view - planning permission for instance.
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Georgie, why would smallholders be frowned upon? They've been around for hundreds of years.
Where we farmed when I was a child "incomers" from the towns and cities who had opted for the "good life" were considered a bit of a joke. "It won't last the winter" was the saying and often that was the case.
I come from farming stock, was a smallholder and now admit that at 61 I am a hobby smallholder and enjoying it :)
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Georgie, why would smallholders be frowned upon? They've been around for hundreds of years.
Where we farmed when I was a child "incomers" from the towns and cities who had opted for the "good life" were considered a bit of a joke. "It won't last the winter" was the saying and often that was the case.
I come from farming stock, was a smallholder and now admit that at 61 I am a hobby smallholder and enjoying it :)
Smallholders around here are frowned upon by the local farmers (the ones I know at least) because of their abuse of kindness. I have heard many a story of farmers helping out or providing advice and then not being appropriately appreciated. I'm not talking financially just for example a neighbour had haylage made for her horses, she was moaning that the contractors had left it in the field, she admitted she hadn't agreed they would move it from the field but had assumed ... myself and my neighbour said we would happily help her move it into the barn. We agreed to go straight down, 10 mins into the job she disappears, only after we finish and we go to the house do we find a note on the door "Gone to Work". No thank you, no 'I'll see you right', no nothing. She has never spoken to either of us again in the past 2 years.
That is a story of personal experience, but I hear the same complaints on a weekly basis at the Mart. If someone takes the time out to help, the least you can say is thank you.
The turnover of smallholdings in this area is amazing, I know of three couples within 5 miles of here that lasted less than a year. Brought a place, took advice/help from the locals, brought stock, got bored, let the land go to waste, went back to the smoke.
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We only have 5 acres so are defiantly not farmers. The farmer who rents the field next door openly calls us 'hobby farmers' which doesn't worry me a bit. Several evenings this year were spent collecting up his escaped lambs and putting them back to their mums. I gladly lend a hand if any animal gets out or isn't looking right and likewise welcome any advice anyone is willing to offer as I know I am a beginner to sheep. I love our wee place and just hope we will be able to stay here forever - income etc allowing. Wether it's incomer/farmer/small holder or hobby farmer I think you get funny folk/ rude folk in all walks of life. ;D ;D
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We only have 5 acres so are defiantly not farmers. The farmer who rents the field next door openly calls us 'hobby farmers' which doesn't worry me a bit. Several evenings this year were spent collecting up his escaped lambs and putting them back to their mums. I gladly lend a hand if any animal gets out or isn't looking right and likewise welcome any advice anyone is willing to offer as I know I am a beginner to sheep. I love our wee place and just hope we will be able to stay here forever - income etc allowing. Wether it's incomer/farmer/small holder or hobby farmer I think you get funny folk/ rude folk in all walks of life. ;D ;D
Your situation sounds very much like us, we like to help out the full time farmers and they are invaluable sources of knowledge. When I lost my job the holding became my main interest and therefore I could make the necessary changes to make it independent to the household which also includes my parents and grandparents. Now I'm returning to work (although part-time) I know the holding is not leaching on the financial resources of the rest of the household.
I would very much like to expand but the adjoining fields (near 100acres) are owned by some environmentalists who are leaving it to nature and are unwilling to sell any parcels, despite them going to ruin.
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I was once told that the difference between a farmer and a smallholder can be seen in how they get in their sheep.
A farmer will drive them with a dog and/or a quad bike.
A smallholder calls them.
;D ;D
An interesting discussion, with some truth in Sally's quote. :)
We live in a smallholding, one that was built in 1935 by the Ministry of Agriculture & Fisheries to provide homes for ex-servicemen after the Great War. There are dozens of them - 17 at our address, another 10 or so a mile away, and similar smallholdings (all built to the same basic design) are scattered throughout Scotland. Most have changed over the past 75 years, simply because some were more viable than others and social habits have changed - many have horses, or market gardens, while others have lost the fields to neighbouring farms. We've lived here for 33 years, but initially without the land - just the house & steadings in about 1/2 acre. Four years ago we bought back the surrounding fields that originally were part of the holding, so now have 19 acres. Hebridean and Soay sheep with a few chickens keep us busy.
Since the postal address is as a smallholding, I'm happy to be called one, but also admit that I'm a hobby farmer since I could not maintain a viable income on just the land, therefore we continue to farm the land because we enjoy the lifestyle.
At the end, does it matter what we are called? I've always found the neighbouring farmers very helpful and supportive, even if we're not as commercial as they are. Additionally, quite a few farmers also have a second job to help make ends meet.
John
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I thought the distinction was whether you *try* to make money or not!
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I think there's also a useful distinction as to who you're growing / rearing the food for. If it's mainly for your own consumption, and perhaps selling a pig or two to other people in order to pay for the rearing of one for your own freezer, then that isn't exactly farming. It is smallholding though.
Truthfully though, as long as I'm enjoying what I'm doing, and I can afford to keep doing it, I honestly don't care what anybody calls me! ;D
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I was once told that the difference between a farmer and a smallholder can be seen in how they get in their sheep.
A farmer will drive them with a dog and/or a quad bike.
A smallholder calls them.
;D ;D
;D ;D ;D
I give the local crofter farmers loads of laughs calling my sheep in. They have names too - all 22 of them & I can tell them apart & I know their life stories off by heart & am willing to tell anyone who stands still long enough ;D ;D ;D
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Hmmm, well since I had 39 of them hurtling to my call today, I guess that's smallholding I do! Actually I only called Coco and Stickylegs (legs like sticks not gooey you understand :-)) and the rest follow them!
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I don't think there's any real difference between a smallholder and a small farmer - a smallholder has a small agricultural holding with a CPH (holding) number - other than what we choose to apply ourselves. I think smallholder does have connotations of "The Good Life" whereas small farmer may give the impression of being more businesslike.
There have been threads on here before about the difference between a gardener and a smallholder - I think the concensus was "livestock".
But since there's no "one size fits all" description of a small farmer OR a smallholder or any legal definition (except crofts), does it matter? In the Agricultural census, a holding below 5ha is "small".
And I think "hobby farmer" is a compliment - shows you're doing it because you love it.
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what about "micro-holder" ?!
we have no more land than a large, corner plot garden.
we have goats for milk (and a small billy for breeding - for milk!) kune pigs for breeding and meat, chickens for eggs & meat, ducks & quails for eggs, a collection of small furries for breeding & pets, cats (hunters and pets) and a big dog (guarding & loving!) and enough veg for us & the animals, as well as lawn & flowers.
does that make me a "good lifer" or just a wannabe?
personally, I think its as much a state of mind ... and the ownership of a CPH number!
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I think I am both depending on who I speak to :) - its subjective really, we dont have any control over what others think and label us as. - but we are all probably in the same sector in some sense. (although the micro-holder must have real passion and dedication - well done! :) )
I am lucky enough to have enough money from another job not to make money from my farming activities - for now anyway! The capital investment has been massive just in the basics such as fences, shelter, equipment - investments that are far bigger and with far smaller returns than in other sectors.
That said I've always got 'business' on my mind. I dont really like not making a profit, but its not something I dont want to turn around and turn into £££ eventually. You sometimes have to take the hit and think of a vision. Maybe walking out on a plank? Maybe a visionary? I dont know yet!?
Is the difference between a small holder and a small farmer
- one puts money through the books and treats it as a business while the other sees it as extra money and has no books, its just a 'pastime', like the money made from a sunday car boot sale?
Dunno - but I'd label myself as both.
Plenty of car boot sales in my books ;)
Baz
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Below is a quote from an article I wrote for the June issue of Home Farmer magazine
"There is no legal distinction between a farm and a smallholding – both are agricultural holdings – but generally a smallholding is considered to be somewhat larger than an allotment plot, but usually less than fifty acres. Anything bigger than this might be thought of as a farm. However, I would argue that smallholding is more about mindset, than purely an area based concept. By definition, a smallholding is an intensively managed small farm, but would four acres be a smallholding if it carried an intensive pig unit? On four acres, you might feasibly house 1000+ sows! Definitely a small area, but not a smallholding as we would understand it. However, neither would someone with an oversize backgarden, some fancy hens and a pet pig classify as a smallholder, in my opinion! At the opposite end of the scale would be Laverstoke Park, a 2500 acre holding run by ex-formula one world champion, Jody Schekter. He fully embraces the smallholding ethos, despite the acreage involved"
I think there's also a useful distinction as to who you're growing / rearing the food for. If it's mainly for your own consumption, and perhaps selling a pig or two to other people in order to pay for the rearing of one for your own freezer, then that isn't exactly farming. It is smallholding though.
It's called subsitence farming in some parts of the world.
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I give the local crofter farmers loads of laughs calling my sheep in. They have names too - all 22 of them & I can tell them apart & I know their life stories off by heart & am willing to tell anyone who stands still long enough ;D ;D ;D
Quite right too!
Any beef or dairy farmer worth his or her salt can identify every single cow, heifer and calf and give you life story and breeding; the top sheep breeders likewise know the dam and sire of every good lamb on their farm, often back through many generations. They don't always name them all though... :D But they'll have a way of referring to them, often by where they were bought or from whom / which farm.
When I came here to BH's farm, he had (amongst others) The Wigton Cow, the First One I Bought From Nicholas, the Garth House Charollais, the Hereford That Always Bit My Finger When Drinking Her Milk, etc. It all seemed a bit of a mouthful to me, plus at first I couldn't remember all the stories as I hadn't been there, so those animals are now called Wiggy, Poppy, Charlie & Dolly - by both of us. ;D In fact, when BH is about to refer to one of the beasts, he'll ask me, "What do you call Winnie's heifer calf?" or similar... ;D He's even stopped being embarrassed with the vet, and uses their names openly. Oh! and gets the AI man to write their number and name on the AI sheets!
He is still a bit embarrassed that a few of the sheep have names... but he does use them, and even named the new tup himself!
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I read somewhere that smallholders sell direct to the consumer, and farmers sell their produce wholesale. Many people do both though so what pigeon hole shall we put them in. Does it actually matter?
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I read somewhere that smallholders sell direct to the consumer, and farmers sell their produce wholesale. Many people do both though so what pigeon hole shall we put them in. Does it actually matter?
We buy a lot of our meat, cheese and veg from local farmers directly, at farmers' markets or through a box scheme, etc. We sell to the local butcher as well as to the big meat processors who supply the supermarkets. As you say, hughesy, many do both!
The capital investment has been massive just in the basics such as fences, shelter, equipment - investments that are far bigger and with far smaller returns than in other sectors.
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Is the difference between a small holder and a small farmer
- one puts money through the books and treats it as a business while the other sees it as extra money and has no books, its just a 'pastime', like the money made from a sunday car boot sale?
Well a farmer does have to have books, yes. But in terms of a farmer's attitude to the business and an accountant's view... check my tag line. Very very few farmers would stay in business if they did all their sums the way the 'money men' would have them do. But taking the long view (and 10 years is the blink of an eye to a farmer - one of the reasons they have such a poor opinion of all the environmental schemes - some of them last only for 5 years and none more than 10), a family farm sustains a home and way of life for generations.
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A local farming magazine rang and asked if i would be interested in doing a feature on our farm, when i explained that we were "hobby farmers" she couldn't get off the phone fast enough and funny never heard from them again!!
;D
Mandy :pig:
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A local farming magazine rang and asked if i would be interested in doing a feature on our farm, when i explained that we were "hobby farmers" she couldn't get off the phone fast enough and funny never heard from them again!!
;D
Mandy :pig:
You should have said yes and let them see your smallholding - I'm sure they would have been impressed, and they might even have printed it. ;D
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the distinction may matter to those of you who are one or the other. The rest of the population care not at all. Don't you think that some people will always want to feel 'superior' to others, in whatever field of human life?
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When I came here to BH's farm, he had (amongst others) The Wigton Cow, the First One I Bought From Nicholas, the Garth House Charollais, the Hereford That Always Bit My Finger When Drinking Her Milk, etc. It all seemed a bit of a mouthful to me, plus at first I couldn't remember all the stories as I hadn't been there, so those animals are now called Wiggy, Poppy, Charlie & Dolly - by both of us. ;D In fact, when BH is about to refer to one of the beasts, he'll ask me, "What do you call Winnie's heifer calf?" or similar... ;D He's even stopped being embarrassed with the vet, and uses their names openly. Oh! and gets the AI man to write their number and name on the AI sheets!
That is just so cool 8) How did you train him? My OH is terrible with the sheep names ( pigs & cattle are OK 'cos we've only got a couple of each).
When I mention Doris for example- he looks at me at says huh ??? so then I have to say 'the white cheviot x shetland with the black spot on it's left ear that always has small lambs...'. Exactly - a mouthful.
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It's called subsitence farming in some parts of the world.
Yes, and if you took away Tescos down the road, we would undoubtably have starved to death by now!
Heather has it right with "I live in Yorkshire, and keep a few chickens". What does it really matter what we're called!?
The only problem I've had so far was in the pub after the CSSA AGM. I was trying to explain to the chap at the urinal next to me that we were having a smallholders' meeting, but he just looked down, and then across at me, before saying "Oh, so I see" !!! ;D
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I thought the distinction was whether you *try* to make money or not!
Ask any farmer. Of course non of them make any profit!! They'll tell you this from the window of their brand new tractor/ Land Rover ;D ;D ;D
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That is just so cool 8) How did you train him? My OH is terrible with the sheep names ( pigs & cattle are OK 'cos we've only got a couple of each).
When I mention Doris for example- he looks at me at says huh ??? so then I have to say 'the white cheviot x shetland with the black spot on it's left ear that always has small lambs...'. Exactly - a mouthful.
Well, firstly he's a lovely man. Secondly, I saw a change in him when he heard me explaining to someone else that I find it much easier to remember names than stories. (And I do pretty much always now have the original story available as backup. And / or the tag number / farm of origin.) Oh, and we bought a Limi X cow from a widely-admired farmer at his partial dispersal sale - to be told by the farmer's daughter that the cow was called Cuddles and would come for a fuss and a bit of apple. :D After that, I think BH just decided to regard it as fun, and an eccentrity. :D
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I think I'm a Small Farmer.......I'm only 5' 2" ...... sorry, couldn't resist that (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-021.gif).