The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Cattle => Topic started by: Maggie on July 14, 2011, 01:55:05 pm
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I have 2 heifers, 14 month old and a 15 month old. Sadie the younger one, has caused a few panics with her bulling, escaping into a neighbouring farm but fortunately only got in with his cows.
My question is, how soon can I put them to my bull? I feel they're too small right now and can't find anything on the Shetland website. I just need to plan my field arrangements this summer. Thanks. :cow:
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Ours are March 2010 born and have just been AI'd, so your should be fine. We're using a Shetland bull. You woudl probably be wise to either use a Shetland, another small breed or an easy calving Angus.
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Thank you Rosemary! That was fast! Hubby & I were disagreeing because I thought I'd read somewhere that 15 months was the right age but don't remember where I saw that. We have our own bull, we bought him, a 5 year old cow with bullcalf at foot and a steer last August. Heifers from a keeper in Hampshire this year.
The bullcalf is intact and a year old now. We're going to try and sell him on the Shetland website. He's a wee pet so I'll miss him.
I'm really glad I joined the site. Browsing through already has answered a lot of questions I had on other issues too.
Just off to tell hubby we can free up the four-acre field now. ;D
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I have 2 heifers, 14 month old and a 15 month old. Sadie the younger one, has caused a few panics with her bulling, escaping into a neighbouring farm but fortunately only got in with his cows.
My question is, how soon can I put them to my bull? I feel they're too small right now and can't find anything on the Shetland website.
The simple answer is, 9 months before you want them to calve! :D
I have no knowledge of Shetlands so must bow to Rosemary's experience and sources, but BH has had a suckler herd all his life and aims to have them calve not younger than 2-and-a-half, 3 if they are a more native type (Blue-Grey for instance, and I was once told that Red Devons shouldn't be asked to calve before they are 3) but our Jersey had her first calf very comfortably at 27 months, so I plan similar for her calf when she grows up. (Though see below.) The big dairy breeders do have them calve at 24 months, but of course it's all about production for them and they can't afford to lose a month's milk for what they would see as no good reason - personally I wonder whether a heifer allowed to finish growing before having to give 20-30L of milk a day has a longer and ultimately more productive life than one who starts lactating when she's still a baby herself, but that's probably just my innate prejudice about intensification.
All of which said, if a bulling heifer is difficult to handle she is probably better bulled earlier to the right bull than getting out and finding someone altogether inappropriate...! I may have to make such a decision regarding my Jersey heifer calf - she's been bulling very noisily every 21 days from her 6-month birthday, so if I don't intervene she may take matters into her own hands long before she reaches my target 18 months! :D
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The Shetland I had for a while had her first calf (long before I had her) at about 13-14 months old :-OO so going by that yours is plenty ready! As others have said, much better that you get to choose the size of the sire than she decides hello big boy to the nearest continental monster :-))))
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@Sally, yes she has been a wee bit difficult. The man we bought her from had to delay the sale to us because she'd broken out before, and was in calf; they had to get the vet in to give one of those injections to abort.
The first time she ran off we did manage to get her back next day, but minus one horn which is a great pity. After second time, we put her into solitary confinement, sounds harsh but we had to repair the fencing where she'd broken through. During this time I handled her a lot and she's not as skitty and nervous as when we got her. Good luck with your wee heifer too <grin>. Sounds like you've exactly the same problem we have!
@Lachlan... wow did you say *had a calf at 13/14 months*??? Counting fingers....4 or 5 months old when mated? Yikes! Anyway I'm glad she survived the birth. I have a Shetland bull to put to her! As you say rather him than my neighbour's great big beasties. Forget the name of the breed, sounds like a mathematical term than a cattle one.
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Yes the beastie accidentally apparently was 'got' (probably not separated yet as they thought it was safe). Apparently the calf produced was small and never grew huge even for a Shetland (someone in the Shetland soc saw it recently!) but the cow went on to have a number of calves successfully including the daughter that came with her when I had her, who was a lovely and quite strapping young lady. Amazing tho, eh?
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It's not THAT unusual for Shetlands to calve at 18 months or so - usually by accident - but it doesn't seem to affect future fertility. Shetlands are a fertile breed and are ofeten easy to calve every 11 months if you want to do so. The SCBA secretary had one cow aged 19 that had had 15 calves. The advice I was given by the SCBA was to get them served to calve down at 24 months or so.
There seems to be a problem with the SCBA website and emails - I've been trying to contact the Secy about the AGM but the emails are bouncing back. I've emailed the SCHBS to see if they have another contact. The "stock for sale" page seems to be gubbed as well :(
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i was told 15 mths for shetlands. are urs preggers rosemary? how much did AI cost , if u dont mind me asking? i expect its more than the £20 for pig AI ::)
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Hope so! Will know next week.
£150 for the synchronisation; £10 per straw plus £6 for storage; £10.40 per insemination so £200
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£150 for the synchronisation; £10 per straw plus £6 for storage; £10.40 per insemination so £200
Was that each or for the pair of them? :cow: :cow:
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£150 for the synchronisation; £10 per straw plus £6 for storage; £10.40 per insemination so £200
Was that each or for the pair of them? :cow: :cow:
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did u not tell dan?...lol...
phew thats alot of money. i was told genus was about £60. i was offered a shetland bull for £15. fingers crossed then rosemary. which bull did u choose?
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For the pair :)
Not exactly ;D He was just clarifying for other forum users :)
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did u not tell dan?...lol...
LOL, so long as we get beef I don't care how much it cost. :D
which bull did u choose?
Hengae Fearsome:
(http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/diary/Hengae-Fearsome-Oct-07.jpg)
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One of my heifers calved at 20 months. She was fine. I have her half sister who has not had a calf yet and although the one with a calf is thinner as obviously, she is rearing the calf, she is not noticeably smaller so it apparently hasn't stunted her. They received exactly the same care over the winter as they were not meant to be in calf, and I didn't actually know until a week before she calved, it turned out she had been bulled a week before we bought her :o
Of course now I want them in calf we have struggled and after 3 rounds of AI I am getting a bull!
In future I will bull the heifers at 12 months because I'd rather know they were expecting a Shetland calf than them go looking for a man and end up with something totally unsuitable! (Heifer which hasn't calved got in with a neighbours lim bull, we jagged her as we knew about it!).
Also I can really recommend electric stand offs on the fence to stop fence wrecking. My older cow is a real fence breaker and a battery energiser on the electric stand offs has completely cured her!
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Thanks Corrie, the more I read here, the better I feel about putting them in to the bull right now. After reading Lachlan's message about one actually calving down at 14 months, I'm going to have to take our 2 month old heifer calf away soon!
I have a nice wee year old Shetland bull here for sale, haven't been able to get his details on the Shetland Society website yet because the link seems broken. We're taking the steer to market soon, as we have yet to try Shetland meat.
When you say electric stand offs, is that something other than the plastic post and wire/tape fencing? I'm using a bit of electric fencing on the border where my neighbour has his bullocks and when I see about twenty of them peering in through the hedge (which has a LOT OF GAPS LOL).... I keep having nightmares that they'll break through!
Maggie
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he is gorgeous, i was speaking bout him the other day and i think (?) i was told hes not alive now? do u get show/breeding records etc for the bull wen u enquire? i didnt get any details about the boar we used for AI, but it would be nice to know.
fingers crossed then, are u selling the heifers and finishing the bullocks? all great stuff :wave:
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he is gorgeous, i was speaking bout him the other day and i think (?) i was told hes not alive now? do u get show/breeding records etc for the bull wen u enquire? i didnt get any details about the boar we used for AI, but it would be nice to know.
Fearsome was calved in 2005 - he doesn't show in the SCBA annual cattle register so I think he must be burgers by now. If you are a member of SCBA and SCHBS, you can access the pedigrees of all Shetland cattle. I assume you have these for your cows. I was told you should try not to have common ancestors in 4 generations. Two of the RBST bulls are father and son, I think, or at least closely related, so if you use one on your cows, you can pretty much forget about using the other on any daughters. You can also get a record of the bull's progeny - all assuming that they are registered with SCHBS, of course.
Very few folk show Shetlands (except on Shetland), so there are no show records that I know of. (Although as a beginner myself, I'm still finding out loads).
If you want copies of pedigrees, PM me and I'll try and run them off for you.
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no, i think the person i spoke to implied he died about 50 years ago. it must have been another bull, or maybe i misheard. fearsome is very very nice. i am member of SCHBS but not SCBS, is it worth joining?
im going to have to think about breeding soon, i was reminded today not too let them get too fat before they are mated. they are a bit podgy cos i never thought about their weight at all. (i have a slight obsession with pig weights!) lol
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I've found SCBA good, although the website's not working properly. We went to see Barry Allen, the Secretary before we bought Shetlands and he was very helpful. Very knowledgeable about genetics too, which is important because of the small gene pool.
The AGM is in October, in Driffield, and we're going - not that either of us love AGMs but the Association has arranged a farm visit to Epicure's Larder, which has a herd of Shetland cows producing milk for cheese production, butter, yogurt etc on a commercial scale. We think it will be very interesting indeed.
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Thanks Corrie, the more I read here, the better I feel about putting them in to the bull right now. After reading Lachlan's message about one actually calving down at 14 months, I'm going to have to take our 2 month old heifer calf away soon!
Maggie
No, they are metal screw in things with plastic insulators on the end which you screw into the existing wooden fence posts and then run a wire along them. Mine tend to lean over the top or between the top strand and the top of the rylock so I put the stand offs between the top wire and the top of the rylock so they can't do either. They do know as soon as the battery fails though so you have to make sure it doesn't! Mine worked well with a solar panel on it but recently I've had some battery problems ::)
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The AGM is in October, in Driffield, and we're going - not that either of us love AGMs but the Association has arranged a farm visit to Epicure's Larder, which has a herd of Shetland cows producing milk for cheese production, butter, yogurt etc on a commercial scale. We think it will be very interesting indeed.
that wud be really interesting. i read that they didnt make much cheese on shetland (in olden days) as they drank the milk, but on orkney there were well known recipes for cheese. now im thinking orkney had shetland cows too or a different breed?
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@Corrie brilliant idea re the stand-offs. I know the gizmos you're talking about and have plenty here. I'm away to tell hubby to get on with it.
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Blizzard is bleeding so clearly not in calf. Breeze seems fine, but we'll see what tomorrow brings. :(
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Blizzard is bleeding so clearly not in calf. Breeze seems fine, but we'll see what tomorrow brings. :(
Oh pants! I feel your pain!!
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Oh pants! I feel your pain!!
Thank you :)
I was gutted. I had convinced myself they were both in calf - they seemed so calm (not that they were ever rowdy ;D). If Breeze doesn't show any signs of heat, I'll get her PD'd in two weeks and Blizzard AI'd again in three weeks. I'll order the semen tomorrow. Wonder if I should try a different bull :cow:
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The first time I was totally sure they were in calf, then they all bulled one by one :'(
Even the last time when the AI man was doing Nari and Kirsty he said Fleur was definitely not bulling but she bulled the next day. Hopefully Mr Fearsome has more er, fearsome sperm and you still get one in calf first go! (And if not you know where there will soon be a localish bull ;) )
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thats a shame, rosemary. it took 2 attempts to get our pig pregnant, so i know its very disappointing.
we were speaking about ai the other day, i was wondering why u had to get them sychonised and not wait til they bulled naturally? i presume it was to get semen organised as its a rare breed?
good luck and fingers crossed for the other heifer xx :love: :love: :wave:
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Any sign of Breeze bulling? Fingers crossed she's held at least - in a way maybe it'll be easier having one newly-calved heifer learning to be milked at a time!
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Any sign of Breeze bulling? Fingers crossed she's held at least - in a way maybe it'll be easier having one newly-calved heifer learning to be milked at a time!
No, no sign of Breeze bulling - and she's really noisy when she is. Wakes the neighbourhood - any bull within 5 miles woudl hear her. So I'd have her PD'd around 3rd August, and assuming she is on calf, I'll have Blizzard AI'd again in three weeks.
We did synchro for ease of AI but also with only two, t's sometimes hard to see who's bulling. With synchro, you know for definite. Although it's obviously not a guarantee of success.
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I'll have Blizzard AI'd again in three weeks.
will he check breeze then too or just leave her?
fingers crossed :love:
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Turns out neither are in calf :'(
But worse things happen at sea, so semen ordered for next week. I'm going to use two bulls - Hengae Fearsome and Stanemore Odin - just need to decide who gets whom.
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Good luck!
I've had our bull Herbie in with my three girls for about a month now. Finger crossed he's done his duty.
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Ohh, bad luck Rosemary. Better luck next time! (Hillie seems to have held on the FOURTH attempt - was she holding out until we tried another Jersey?!)
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sorry to hear that :(
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Yeah, I was feeling a bit smug - I was SURE Breeze was in calf. Hey ho, nothing like smallholding to bring to back down to size ;D :cow:
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you'l appreciate it more now though, it took my favourite mare 3 years to fall pregnant so each foal since is just much more special. keep us posted though cos wer only a few months behind u with maya and daala. :wave: :wave:
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I'm going to use two bulls - Hengae Fearsome and Stanemore Odin - just need to decide who gets whom.
thats exciting :D. are u breeding just for beef or aiming for breed standards? my 2 are half sisters on one side and cousins on the other but are very different in type, one is much more stockier. our finer one is apparently more traditional looking. are the bulls similar looking? do u get told leg measurements etc like u would for a stallion up for stud?
u can use the the bulls strengths to improve ur heifers weaknesses, great stuff :D :D
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Turns out neither are in calf :'(
But worse things happen at sea, so semen ordered for next week. I'm going to use two bulls - Hengae Fearsome and Stanemore Odin - just need to decide who gets whom.
Oh drat.
I was away when my two possibles were due to bull and I used heat detect patches and they have not detected a heat. BUT I am now wondering if I've got them too far forward so I am none the wiser really. When's the earliest you can scan cows, anyone know?
Mr Bull is coming beginning of September so it would be typical if 2/3 are in calf now.
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I was away when my two possibles were due to bull and I used heat detect patches and they have not detected a heat. BUT I am now wondering if I've got them too far forward so I am none the wiser really. When's the earliest you can scan cows, anyone know?
Mr Bull is coming beginning of September so it would be typical if 2/3 are in calf now.
Scan 35 days after mating. What are heat detect patches?
Which bull are you getting?
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thats exciting :D. are u breeding just for beef or aiming for breed standards? my 2 are half sisters on one side and cousins on the other but are very different in type, one is much more stockier. our finer one is apparently more traditional looking. are the bulls similar looking? do u get told leg measurements etc like u would for a stallion up for stud?
u can use the the bulls strengths to improve ur heifers weaknesses, great stuff :D :D
Mine are by the same bull and their dams are full sisters and they are quite similar. Both are quite stocky with a leg at each corner. We're breeding pure and for milk and beef.
Unfortunately, the data on bulls is very limited so it's more a case of picking ones that are unrelated and don't have Boris and Rasmie. In most cases, there isn't even a photo available. The SCBA does list details of progeny, but it's not awfully helpful. I'm just assuming that the SCHBS and RBST wouldn't save semen from bulls that weren't good specimens.
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Both are quite stocky with a leg at each corner.
lol...mine have same dad and their dams are twin sisters, but they are quite different in type. but both are lovely.
iv just been offered a cracking bull calf for next year but still have the dilema of getting them pregnant shortly.
ai or natural?
rosemary, did u manage ai without a "proper" crush?
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It was fine with our "gate" crush. They are very quiet and well trained on the halter. I just tied them up and swung the gate ove to steady their back ends and it was just dandy.
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I used heat detect patches and they have not detected a heat. BUT I am now wondering if I've got them too far forward
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The cattle need to be mounting each other for the heat patches to work as they are set of by friction. Have you considered bringing them into heat artificially and then AI'? I did this with the 2 dexters i had, only one held tho :/
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We maybe should start a new topic 'Heat detection'.
It's not easy. Heifers don't always mount each other. BH likes to run a couple of bullocks on, they usually do enjoy getting involved - but not always.
With house cows that you see every day, you get to learn her signs. (Hillie is hot, then fretful, then very soppy, then rampant.) But the first time is difficult if she's not a mounter or very vocal herself. If you can handle her in the field you may be able to learn how she reacts to a tail rub; this may change when she's bulling. Otherwise it's down to looking for the mucous and blood a few times, working out her repeat pattern, then getting her served the day before she bloods.
Otherwise I guess it's finding a suitable suitor in the flesh - not easy if you want rare breed pedigree.
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I have synchronised them, and AI'd them - 3 times!
I used KAMARs and they are as far as I am aware to do with the cow being mounted and standing still. I have used tail paint previously and I can assure you, my cows allll mount each other when they are in season! ;D If however I have put the patch too far forward then the cow could have been mounted and it not activated. I am getting them scanned next week. It wasn't desperately important to know if they were in calf or not because I have abandoned AI now and got a bull to hire instead.
Rosemary he is called CARN BHREN ETHELRED and he has very low B/R (less than 1% if I remember correctly) which is unusual in a red animal. The red bull calf we have bought has NO B/R which makes him very special, he is also completely stunning and a rather beefy type which is ideal for our purposes and my rather fine cows. I will email a new pic to you since I can't seem to get them uploaded on here for some reason.
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Blizzard is bulling - roaring, a bit swollen and trying to mount Breeze, who is having none of it. I'll check them later but I think it will be a call to Genus in the morning.
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Is this the second time you are AIing Rosemary? Did you get two different bull semen this time?
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I've got Hengae Fearsome and Stanemore Odin. Blizzard will get Fearsome and Breeze, when she comes on bulling, Odin. Yes, second time. Just ::)
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Have they not bulled at the same time then?
I actually have my doubts about all this syncro stuff. It seems to me if you force them in heat, they may not be as receptive to holding a pregnancy at least the first time after the syncro. Just my own views and based on nothing but a suspicion for interfering! If my two have held, then this would be the third cycle since syncro.
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Blizzard was AI'd yesterday with Hengae Fearsome. She'll be done again today. Vima, the technician, said she was definitely in season.
I thought they would come back together but Blizzard was in season three weeks after the first AI, so I was sure she wasn't in calf. Breeze, on the other hand, was bawling four+ weeks after AI, so I thought she might be in calf. I'll be looking for her to come in season next week - she roars the place down, so never much doubt.
With all I'd read about heat detection, I was worried that I might miss it. Standard advice is to spend 3x30 minutes periods each day observing stock - which is fine with a few hundred head. Fortunately, it's been sunny so an excuse to sit in the field watching the cows and the sheep was quite welcome ;D
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I've been told I did have the Kamars too far forward, but probably they still should have gone off if they had been mounted... So I am none the wiser and getting them scanned next week :D