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Author Topic: Tup double tapping ewes  (Read 903 times)

tommytink

  • Joined Aug 2018
Tup double tapping ewes
« on: November 03, 2021, 09:28:40 pm »
I have two breeds of sheep. The first tup (who Iíve used twice before) went in with his girls, ate and slept and laid about for two weeks, then got to work and has only tupped them once. The other tup (whoís a new yearling) went in and started marking ewes pretty much straight away. I changed his raddle and around half of them have been tupped again. Majority of the re-dos have been around the 17 day mark, apart from one. I also have three yearlings that were first done about a week after the older girls, so theyíd still have their next cycle to come.
How concerned should I be about this? Not being proven Iím worried heís a Jaffa, but could he have been a little eager? Although I didnít think the ewes would stand for him if they werenít cycling, could they have been too eager as well? Not planned but I ended up with a tup lamb here this year who Iím going to send in as a sweeper. Iíd put him in now but I donít want them beating the crap out of each other.
So basically do I need to be concerned??

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Tup double tapping ewes
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2021, 09:39:19 pm »
Majority of the re-dos have been around the 17 day mark

Is concerning, yes. 

It's usual for a novice to jump everything he can in any way he can, and get marks on ewes who weren't standing, marks on heads, sides, everywhere!  lol.  But usually he will get most of them first time, so re-do's at 17 days are concerning, yes. 

How many ewes does he have? 

If the tup lamb is a decent enough chap, and/or you aren't breeding for breeding stock, I think I might be inclined to swap the tup lamb in now.
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: Tup double tapping ewes
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2021, 09:46:28 pm »
Re-marking more than one or two at 17 days is a definite issue. I'd swap him out now, especially as you have that option without too much hassle.

"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

twizzel

  • Joined Apr 2012
Re: Tup double tapping ewes
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2021, 10:07:21 pm »
Iíd swap him out as well, and get him semen tested too. Donít leave the Jaffa tup in or he could kill the lamb. Pull him out then put the lamb in.

tommytink

  • Joined Aug 2018
Re: Tup double tapping ewes
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2021, 10:36:27 pm »
He only has 13 ewes. The yearlings took longer to get marked which I understand is probably due to them being yearlings and taking longer to come into season.
Last year the same ewe got jumped on straight away and was remarked 23 days later. Exactly the same with that one this year. Another one was marked 3 or 4 days in (03 or 04/10) and remarked today, so not 17 or 34 days. Four havenít been remarked (17 days have passed). Three yearlings havenít got to second cycle time yet. So currently there are four that have been redone around the second cycle.
I thought Iíd read about a ďfakeĒ cycle, where itís early and theyíre not really going yet but it seems like a real one. Probably wishful thinking.

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: Tup double tapping ewes
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2021, 10:49:36 pm »

I'd say four out of 13 that you know about, and possibly more is ample cause for changing him.

The problem is, if you wait another two weeks and they're marked again, you'll pretty sure he's firing blanks by then..... but then you'll have to wait another two weeks until they can run with a different tup. That gives you a very spread out lambing period, running from early April right into May.



"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

Backinwellies

  • Global Moderator
  • Joined Sep 2012
  • Llandeilo Carmarthenshire
    • Nantygroes
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Re: Tup double tapping ewes
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2021, 07:23:10 am »
I ended up with a tup lamb here this year who Iím going to send in as a sweeper. Iíd put him in now but I donít want them beating the crap out of each other.

You need to remove the first one when you put second one in.... use totally different colour marker so you can see what happens
Linda

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twizzel

  • Joined Apr 2012
Re: Tup double tapping ewes
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2021, 08:22:22 am »
I had 1 ewe this year that was marked on first day, I thought enough to count as being tupped. She was remarked about 10 days later properly, so I think the tup was a bit keen on day 1  :roflanim:  the cycle length isnít always 17 days, thatís just average. But I would still take him out, get the vet to fertility test him, as if youíve just bought him and he is firing blanks you may have cause for a replacement or compensation.

tommytink

  • Joined Aug 2018
Re: Tup double tapping ewes
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2021, 05:56:59 pm »

That gives you a very spread out lambing period, running from early April right into May.

My lambing period is screwed anyway to be fair. Got five yearlings with someone elseís tup as couldnít sell their Dad and get a replacement, and I think one of them was done a while ago but nothing on the other four. Didnít want them to go but they use a commercial tup which made more sense then putting them to the Badger. Long story short itís not really working out as I envisaged. Looks like nothing is!

I donít know how I would get compo if he was infertile. Itís not like anyone told me he was, and unproven is always a risk. Iíd be a bit upset if someone came back to me and wanted a refund on one Iíd sold.

twizzel

  • Joined Apr 2012
Re: Tup double tapping ewes
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2021, 06:48:28 pm »
If youíve been sold a breeding ram, and youíve bought him over the summer I.e heís not been on your farm long; I would expect him to be able to get ewes in lamb. If heís a Jaffa, then heís no good.


Any reasonable breeder would stand by their rams sold, either with a replacement, or some form of refund. I bought a ram a few years ago, his first few ewes he served all returned and he failed a fertility test; the breeder offered me a sweeper ram and would have taken him back if he was a complete dud (turns out he wasnít when we scanned them, so I kept and used him for a further year before culling him due to temperament).


tommytink

  • Joined Aug 2018
Re: Tup double tapping ewes
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2021, 10:59:18 pm »
Just as an update, I slapped some yellow raddle on the little sweeper and put him in with the girlsÖ think he was excited  :D

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: Tup double tapping ewes
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2021, 09:18:47 am »
One of our ewes ended up with raddle all over her head last year. I still don't know who instigated that one!  :o
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

tommytink

  • Joined Aug 2018
Re: Tup double tapping ewes
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2021, 12:01:24 pm »
We made the mistake of topping up the raddle when they were all penned before we checked a couple of ewes. A couple like to keep their heads down so they had it all over their faces like yours! We were trying to clean it away from their eyes but the bloody stuff doesnít come off!

Mamohau

  • Joined Jan 2022
Re: Tup double tapping ewes
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2022, 11:57:48 am »
Can I please ask beginner questions?
 
Does double tapping purely mean a ewe's been tupped by two rams, when she shouldn't have let the 2nd given that she should have taken after the first?
Is the problem that you won't know who's fathered the lambs?
Is there a reason for putting the lamb tup in after the ram?
What's the significance of 17 days?

Sorry, we just put the ram in, expect ewes to cycle sometime in the following 2-3 weeks, and leave them to it, no raddle as we're not too bothered about them taking or not, and dark mouflon Soay so not sure we'd see it!  Maybe we should be paying more attention to the process.

Just planning ahead as I have Boreray too and this coming winter will be my first time with tup, once I find one!

Thank you very much for your patience!

silkwoodzwartbles

  • Joined Apr 2016
Re: Tup double tapping ewes
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2022, 12:20:11 pm »
@Mamohau, ewes generally cycle every 17 days (ish) so if they're marked by a tup on one cycle then again 17 days later, it means she hasn't held to the first service so there's a chance that the tup isn't working (fertile). If someone wants to lamb in a tight bunch, it's handy to raddle so you know the tup is working and when lambs are due. I think in the OP the relevance of the ram lamb is that he could replace the original tup in case the original tup wasn't working.

 

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