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Author Topic: Castlemilk moorit history  (Read 3201 times)

James1

  • Joined Jul 2015
Castlemilk moorit history
« on: March 25, 2017, 09:30:25 am »
Hi, I have a question regarding the history of castlemilk moorits. I have often seen in various articles on the breed that wild mouflon was used in their makeup. Is there any evidence out there that this was definitely the case, such as old letters etc . In the book "The manx loghtan story " there's a fairly long account of the history but no mention of wild mouflon? Has new evidence come about since this book was written? Id be very interested to hear from anybody that could shed some light on the subject
JR

Fieldfare

  • Joined Feb 2011
Re: Castlemilk moorit history
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2017, 10:05:34 pm »
Not documentary proof but their patterning very strongly points to having mouflon in their ancestry. There will be evidence also in their genetic make-up which could be accessed with the right genetic tools (maybe the RBST or Castlemilk Moorit Society could shed light on this).


SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Castlemilk moorit history
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2017, 12:39:56 am »
I've often wondered if it was really 'wild mouflon', or whether that phrase was used to describe Soay or similar semi-feral types, which would account for the markings.
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Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

waterbuffalofarmer

  • Joined Apr 2014
  • Mid Wales
  • Owner of 61 Mediterranean water buffaloes
Re: Castlemilk moorit history
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2017, 12:45:51 am »
As I understand it they were developed in England in the 1700's, I think ??? By a rich guy, I think a lord, on his estate...
the most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, loving concern.

kanisha

  • Joined Dec 2007
    • Spered Breizh Ouessants
    • Facebook
Re: Castlemilk moorit history
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2017, 12:02:29 pm »
As i understand "mouflon" markings on soay  ( black and tan) are not considered  the same allele as  the allele expressed by "real" mouflons
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Fieldfare

  • Joined Feb 2011
Re: Castlemilk moorit history
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2017, 12:24:17 pm »
Hmmm...yes interesting. But one imagines that the mouflon pattern is controlled by an allele from a wild sheep (looking like a mouflon). Nothing that a very expensive phylogenetic analysis wouldn't sort out :)

kanisha

  • Joined Dec 2007
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Re: Castlemilk moorit history
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2017, 12:35:48 pm »
In his own words  P Sponenberg http://www.soaysheepbreeders.com/reports/sponenberg060410.pdf

 The main mechanism for color variation is the Agouti locus (locus is Greek for address, and just
means a specific site), which controls the distribution of light (white to tan) and dark fibers (black
to  brown)  over  the  body  of  the  animal.  The  Agouti  patterns  in  the  Soay  are  limited  to  two 
choices.  The  first  of  these  is  the  common  and  familiar  “Soay  pattern”,  which  results  in  a  dark 
sheep with lighter tan trim on the belly, legs, over the eyes, and the muzzle. The naming of this
pattern is somewhat controversial. Some experts consider that this is analogous to the wild type
pattern  in  sheep,  or  Mouflon  pattern.  I  think  that  the  Soay  pattern  is  much  more  like  the 
black and  tan  pattern,  with  a  generally  black  top  and  the  light  trim.  Whatever  the  truth  is,  the  controversy can somewhat be avoided by referring to this distinctive pattern as “Soay.”
 
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SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Castlemilk moorit history
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2017, 10:08:26 pm »
I always think of Castlemilk marking as being like the Shetland gulmoget.  Is that derived the same way?
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

kanisha

  • Joined Dec 2007
    • Spered Breizh Ouessants
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Re: Castlemilk moorit history
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2017, 11:49:01 am »
I would agree. What would you get if you crossed a light phase soay with a moorit gulmoget? Look pretty similar to a castlemilk moorit?
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Marches Farmer

  • Joined Dec 2012
  • Herefordshire
Re: Castlemilk moorit history
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2017, 09:36:03 am »
"In the early 1900s Sir Jock Buchanan-Jardine bred the Castlemilk Moorit from a cross between a Shetland, a Manx Loaghtan and the wild Mouflon.  He wanted it to grace his parkland in Dumfriesshire and also to provide woollen clothing for his estate workers .....  After Sir Jock died the flock was only saved from extinction by the redoubtable Joe Henson, one of the founders of the RBST. who at the dispersal sale in 1970 bought a ram and nine ewes.....  The moorit colour is recessive, so the first cross with any other breed nearly always produces wool of the same colour as the dominant crossing breed."  Quoted from Counting Sheep by Philip Walling (a very interesting read).

pspierings

  • Joined Oct 2017
Re: Castlemilk moorit history
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2017, 11:06:52 am »
About the Mouflon, there is one letter in the Castle Milk Estates archive referring to a Mouflon on the estate. The letter was located by Peter Wade-Martins when doing research about the origin of the CMM-breed. It's a letter from 15 October 1930 from the Factor to Mr. I. Parnelle at the Animal Breeding Research Department at Edinburgh which mentions crossing a 'Moufflon' ram with 'Lonk' ewes, besides many other experiments. More info can be found in Peter's article ‘The Puzzle of the Castlemilks Finally Solved’, The Ark (1st series) Volume XIX nr. 6 Juni 1992, p.311-313. The existence of a Mouflon ram has been confirmed several times by Sir Rupert Buchanan-Jardine (to Peter Wade-Martins and Joe Henson). 

Maybe of interest:

It's interesting to see there is also  a letter from  28th August 1928 which describes the first order for brown sheep (most likely shetlands) from Ballindalloch estate. Sir John was thinking in crossing them with a Lonk ram.

In an old newspaper it was also mentioned that in 1930 there was a crossing, a ram,  between a Shetland and a Dorset Horn

There is also a photograph from 1932, showing 2 'Shetland'-rams together with Sir John Buchanan-Jardine. Looking closer at the picture you can see these sheep are not pure Shetlands. The ram in the front has already white (lower)legs, overall size is bigger and the other ram has a spot at his fronthead.

Cheers,
Paul

« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 11:15:55 am by pspierings »

 

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