[honeyend]

http://www.the-calf-at-foot-dairy.co.uk/
 I thought this was interesting and they are not that far from me. Anyone tried it?

[landroverroy]

Oh wow - what a lovely way to produce milk.
I too believe it's cruel to take the calf away at birth.

[Backinwellies]

Isn't that just what most smallholders with a house cow do anyway ..... 

[Rosemary]

https://smilingtreefarm.com/

Good information here too. And courses.

Not necessarily, Backinwellies. It's not the easiest option, to leave the calf on.

[shep53]

There are a few commercial farms who operate this system , one was on the tv about a month ago .  A traditional house cow was expected to rear its calf and feed the house , the shieling system in Scotland saw cows and calves and ewes and lambs taken to the hills for the summer and milked ,    this system goes on all over the world , many things are not  new just a reinvention of some thing  old

[SallyintNorth]

There is, and can only ever be, one Calf At Foot Dairy.  Somehow, Fiona Provan has managed to protect the term and define it very precisely.  Others producing milk and milk products from cows rearing their own calves, but doing it differently to how Fiona is doing it - like the wonderful Christine Page at Smiling Tree Farm, as linked by Rosemary - have been forced to come up with another term, and change all their literature.

Christine came up with ‘Cow Calf Dairying’, and has changed all her literature accordingly.  Unlike Fiona, Christine encourages and supports anyone who is working on a more natural model and letting the cows rear their own calves, whether or not they are doing it the same way she is.

Christine runs a FB Group “CowCalf Dairies”.

There’s also a Google Group “Alternative Approaches to Dairying”, where most members are doing some form of cow-calf dairying.  Some of them are on a commercial scale.

[macgro7]

I've seen them recently. Love the idea. Love they also use mob grazing.
I've seen similar system with goats and in many places in the world this is how they rear sheep!

[The Calf at Foot Dairy]

Unfair and one side of the story!  I set up the first Calf at Foot micro-dairy in answer to the cruelty within dairy. I wanted to make a business imitating the house cow method practiced by millions of cow keepers since the dawn of time across the globe. The difference between Christine and I is that I want to show it's possible to make a living and viable business out of this high welfare method of dairying. Anyone can keep a house cow but it's making it into a business that's the tricky part.  As so many others have, Christine came here to find out how to set up a working CaFD.  She paid for a training day with follow up mentoring via phone and email.  I helped her with teething problems such as milking tricky cows and getting through her milk tests for the authorities.  I invited her to use the Calf at Foot name and logo. She did not seem keen and infact told me I shouldn't be pushing the CaFD thing. Soon she was using the CaFD term I was pleased but then I found out she was putting her calves in for veal at about 5months old. This goes against a very important part of CAFDing which is growing dairy calves up to a full sized beef animal and selling as beef from the farm.  Jersey beef is exceptional in quality these animals are very valuable.  So I questioned Christine on this and we couldn't agree, at this stage she was encouraging other would be CaFDers but they were selling calves into the unknown at a younger age and so watering down CaFD methods further still.  I asked Christine that if she were to use the term CaFD she should toe the line.  My dream is to make the world a better place for dairy cows and I wanted to see other micro dairies set up all over. I only imagined good people would want to copy but feel devastated that it is attracting those that feel it's a good way of adding premium to milk and so jumping on the bandwaggon as we saw with organics (this does not include Christine I believe she is a good well meaning person but in this case she overstepped the mark ) I was unhappy that she was throwing our business name around and pretending it was her idea.  Unlike Christine my micro-dairy is ALWAYS OPEN we have people turn up unannounced at any time and they get a farm tour and talk and given info they need.  Other would be CaFDers from all over the world book a day with me (FOC) they get a complete open and honest visit. TheCalfAtFootDairy.co.uk


 

There is, and can only ever be, one Calf At Foot Dairy.  Somehow, Fiona Provan has managed to protect the term and define it very precisely.  Others producing milk and milk products from cows rearing their own calves, but doing it differently to how Fiona is doing it - like the wonderful Christine Page at Smiling Tree Farm, as linked by Rosemary - have been forced to come up with another term, and change all their literature.

Christine came up with ‘Cow Calf Dairying’, and has changed all her literature accordingly.  Unlike Fiona, Christine encourages and supports anyone who is working on a more natural model and letting the cows rear their own calves, whether or not they are doing it the same way she is.

Christine runs a FB Group “CowCalf Dairies”.

There’s also a Google Group “Alternative Approaches to Dairying”, where most members are doing some form of cow-calf dairying.  Some of them are on a commercial scale.

[landroverroy]

Fiona - I think the whole ethos behind the Calf at foot dairy is amazing. As a keeper of suckler cattle, we keep the calves  on their mothers for up to 8 months or more and I love the bond that the cows have with their calves. I have therefore always found the tradition of removing dairy calves from their mothers at birth particularly cruel.


However, I don't think that Christine weaning the calves off their mothers at 5 months and selling for veal is anywhere near as horrendous as the traditional practice of removing them at birth. At least the cow has some quality time with her calf at the age when it is most dependent on her, and her mothering instincts are strongest. You've got to be realistic. People can't afford to run their enterprises on altruism alone, and regrettably it would not be feasible to run the majority of the dairy industry on your lines.


I therefore believe that if you get a reasonable number of people following Christine's lead and at least giving both cow and calf some quality time together, it is better than trying to follow your original methods strictly to the book and finding it didn't work for them, and going back to removing the calf at birth.


Yes your ideals may be the optimum solution. But let's face it - the calf is bred to be killed anyway, so really what you're unhappy about is the fact that it only lived to 5 months. Isn't 5 months of a natural life with it's mother better than no time with her at all? 

[Rosemary]

Hey, Fiona

Thanks for joining the TAS forums and contributing to the discussion. I admire your principles and you for sticking to them when it can't be easy. I feel the same about the term "organic" which has become a marketing tool for many without a genuine committment to the ethos. I'm not judging anyone but it makes me a wee bit uncomfortable.

Basically, I'm just thrilled to bits that there are folk like you and Christine who are working to draw dairy back from the brink. All power to all your elbows. 

[honeyend]

Having been around horses most of my life and seen the fighting that goes on between various factions in methods of training having a difference of opinion in methods is normal.

  I found out how dairy calves were separated almost at birth almost 30 years ago for the first time when we bought a house that backed onto a dairy farm.On some farms they are tubed with colostrum and never see a cow. I don't like it but I try and make no judgement because they have to supply milk at ridiculously low price.  The calf unfortunately is a by product, a bull diary calf, if they are not in a TB restricted area makes£40, in a TB area if they haven't got the housing a lot are shot. As long as this is done with as least stress as possible I find this more palatable than sending very small calves to market, but some farmer find this unpalatable. I do not think any dairy farmer really wants to shoot a calf at birth..

   I am very interested in calf at foot dairying and both the websites mentioned I have found interesting and informative. Any thing that raises welfare standards and increases public awareness of the practicalities of farming has to be a good thing.
   We have seen the rise of free range eggs, although some would debate that in trying to increase volume of free range eggs produced the perhaps the free range is not what people would think, and I see where Fiona is coming from. There are farms selling raw milk but they may not be calf at foot and lines get blurred, its a case of reading what they do not say. So perhaps Fiona is right to 'copyright' her terminology.
  It may be that calf at foot is niche market milk, but as people become even more removed from farm animals the opportunity to educate the general public whilst giving the animals a good quality natural life what ever stage the animals are slaughtered is surely a good thing.
   Like meat we need to ask where is comes from, and with milk if you are paying a premium for higher welfare standards ask how is actually produced, not everyone can by direct from the farm. Farm fresh is not always what people think, I live on the edge of the fens and farming is a land industry on a huge scale.

[graemeatwellbank]

I'd love to do something like this in Scotland but I think we are prevented by government from distributing milk and milk products. In fact getting rid of excess milk is a major stumbling block preventing me from getting a house cow + companion as I've been advised here that a small dairy cow would not get a fair chance if mixed with my highlanders. In fact one of my highlanders is chased away by the other three at present and I need to put out a separate hay supply for her, which the others take over anyway.
I suppose I want to know how anybody disposes of excess milk/butter milk/whey in Scotland especially as milk is a very bad pollutant which should not be poured down the drain.

[Rosemary]

I'd love to do something like this in Scotland but I think we are prevented by government from distributing milk and milk products. In fact getting rid of excess milk is a major stumbling block preventing me from getting a house cow + companion as I've been advised here that a small dairy cow would not get a fair chance if mixed with my highlanders. In fact one of my highlanders is chased away by the other three at present and I need to put out a separate hay supply for her, which the others take over anyway.
I suppose I want to know how anybody disposes of excess milk/butter milk/whey in Scotland especially as milk is a very bad pollutant which should not be poured down the drain.

Selling raw milk for human consumption is illegal in Scotland but not paruerised milk (obviously). We keep Shetland cows and milk three, leaving the calves on. I take about 10 litres a day across the three - does us, makes cheese and feed the pigs. With the Shetland, we don't have to worry about high yielding dairy cows.