[fixit9660]

Hi,
We've got a pair of Pygmy Whethers, about 7 months old. When we first got them they were eating very well, and put on weight steadily. Since they were wormed on 23rd October they've been steadily going off their food and have lost about 1/3rd of their weight. We've also had a new supply of Hay in from the same farmer as the previous lot, but they don't seem interested. Their general demeanour is fine; they're alert and active and very verbal.

We've just given them a generous helping of Goat Mix which they wolfed down, and after it they went straight to the last of the original Hay which we also put out at the same time. We're worried that when the original Hay is gone, we'll be back to the same situation where they're not eating the new stuff. They browse around their paddock picking at the odd grass and plant, and eating the odd dry tree leaf they come across, but nothing in quantity.

Does anyone have experience of their pygmy goats going off food after worming, or any suggestions please? Otherwise it's the vets on Monday morning.

[Old Shep]

Does the new hay smell like the old hay?  Just because its the same source doesn't mean it will be the same quality.

[Steph Hen]

My goats are a pain when it comes to feeding. Everyone on here and in 'real life' says they are no more difficult/much easier than other animals.

I got some bags of hay from a couple of bales that my neighbour had cut. The goats loved it, even eating strands off the floor (unheard of!). So I got a bale of this hay; same field, same storage: they hated it. Tried feeding them Some from the bags of hay which they'd previosly loved and they wouldn't touch it either.

At first they stood about in the fields for weeks (basically the whole of last summer) refusing to eat, till they lost all condition and then decided that actually, hawthorn, willow, docks, etc, were quite tasty and started tucking in.

Any food/hay still in their rack after half hour used to be ignored, but they've toughened up a bit now and will munch through it. (Everything they get is dry, good quality, and well up off the floor.) Similarly they are now good at browsing the hedges and scrub and grazing (they take the tops of the grass and herbs and weeds, but I'm not looking for a lawn, just a bit of effort)!

The only way I got them eating greenery/hay was to cut hard feed and veg so that they had no choice. Otherwise theyd eat nothing but mix and veg which isn't good for their tummies (obviously).

[fixit9660]

Hi All and thanks for your responses.

[member=132794]Scarlet.Dragon[/member]: I'm fairly sure they've been "done", and we're in a very thinly spread hamlet but I'm not sure there are no females in the area. I must admit I hadn't thought of that. They do rear and head-butt quite often, but I put it down to their adolescence and dominance games. Presumably they'll grow out of it?

[member=10279]Old Shep[/member]: We've tried three different hay types from the same farmer (bless his patience), the current/last one looking identical to the original. (Obviously only as far as I can tell because the goats think differently.)

[member=28951]Steph Hen[/member]: Ours have resorted to browsing the enclosure fodder, grass, odd plants, dry leaves when we've refused to replace the Hay Rack contents with the remaining original Hay, but that's why they've lost so much weight. We're afraid of digging our heels in any further as they're just youngsters and we don't want to harm them hence this posting. Next year it will be a different matter of course.

Over the weekend we've tried dampening the new Hay, scattering Mix in it, mixing original and new, and turning it. Turning it obviously involves visiting the pen regularly, and they seem to eat briefly afterwards but I'm wondering if it's because they enjoy our company? That's not a long term fix obviously, and the last of the original Hay is now gone.

Unless things change we'll end up feeding them pure Mix and a callout for the Vet.

Best regards
Andrew.

[Steph Hen]

As an alternative, you could try the bagged chaff for horses, if they eat it, at least they'll get a bit more fibre?
I asked two vets about mine and they said they were spoilt and that they'd learn to eat better eventually. Please let us know how you get on!

[Old Shep]

If they hadn't been losing weight I wouldn't worry, because no animal will starve itself in the presence of food.  But the weight loss is a worry - have they been fluked?  Do they have any other symptoms other than weight loss? Are their feet ok?

[fixit9660]

[member=28951]Steph Hen[/member]: Bagged Chaff? OK that's not something we've come across before, thanks for the suggestion, we'll investigate. (They can't have Alfafa grass or Haylage as it causes Whethers to get urinary stones.) Ours are spoilt too, and I'm wondering if the same applies.

[member=10279]Old Shep[/member]: They came from a local breeder who had them all jabbed before we got them but I don't know specifically about Fluke. They are alert, verbal, and active, their poop is normal. Their hooves are good and growing well; we have to trim them every few weeks. Their coats are good and developing a nice thick Winter layer. They'll eat Mix, and the original Hay, so I don't think it's an appetite problem.

[Old Shep]

Fluke is treated by drenching - your wormer may also treat fluke, perhaps check the bottle.

You say they have lost 30% of their weight - they must now look skinny?  Personally I think its more than just being fussy.  There are a couple of wasting diseases that goats can get, I'd have a chat with your vet to  be on the safe side.

[fixit9660]

We'll check on what the wormer treated. They don't look skinny - yet, but they certainly don't look "rounded", with firm bulges on their left sides, after all day eating the Hay, like they did before the worming. Their sides are now almost flat, with no firm stomach bulges, they're just not eating. And they're bleating A LOT. In all other respects they're fine.

[pharnorth]

Certainly sound hungry if they are constantly bleating. Difficult to tell if the weight loss is due to off feed or something else, one for the Vet. One possibility it rat or cat urine on the hay. I have had that problem occasionally, it looks ok but the goats can smell something they really don't like so you can't just go on the look of it. Despite the possibility of making them fussy eaters if they are losing weight I'd be inclined to pamper them and try a bale from a completely different source.

[Steph Hen]

Hoe are you getting on? 

[fixit9660]

Well I'd thought I'd follow up just in case anyone else has a similar problem one day.
As they weren't eating and we were worried about the combined weight-loss and oncoming cold nights, we started giving them each a good handful of Goat Mix first thing in the morning, and last thing at night. They loved this of course. After a few days their appetite improved and they started eating the new Hay as if there'd never been anything wrong.
We've slowly backed off the Mix down to just a covering on the bottom of the bowl, and everything seems back to normal.
My diagnosis: the Worming medication, (Combinex Sheep - 4mls each), not only got rid of any worms, it also significantly affected their appetite; I wonder how it affected their gut chemistry? - something very important to ruminants. We weren't made aware of this as a side effect but we'll watch out next time.
Thanks to all who contributed, much appreciated!!

Merry Christmas!

Andy.

[Anke]

If these kids are your only goats, you don't have any sheep that share grazing with the goats and your grazing is clean (as didn't have any other sheep/goats on for at least a year) it is unlikely that a) they actually did need worming and b) will need worming again. Always do a fecal egg count before worming (to check for the actual need to worm or not) and ten days after (to check for efficacy of the wormer/resistant worms). As for fluke, this is quite a harsh medication even for sheep, so unless there is a proven need to treat for fluke (and the vast majority of goats do not need ever fluking) I would stay well clear.

The use of combined wormer/flukicide is not recommended for goats - goats need a higher dose than sheep for most wormers (in case of Levamisole, the wormer present in Combinex it is 1.5x sheep dose) but that is not the case for flukicides. Triclabendazole (the flukcide in Fasinex/Combinex etc) is the only flukicide that kills all three stages of fluke, but it is not licensed for animals producing milk for human consumption.

For future worming - Oramec (or other Ivermectin based drenches) the dose is 2x the sheep dose, this is a very safe wormer for goats even if you slightly overdose. If you can weigh your goats before dsiing and drench to their individual weight.

[fixit9660]

Hi Anke, thanks for the reply and technical information.

My daughter did the fecal egg count at work for us. (It's nice to see our investment starting to pay off  ) and confirmed the need. Whilst they're still kids, and living on virgin animal ground, we're in the middle of Beef stock country, there's a field on the other side of the fence, and I'm told the worms get around.
We'll always get the need confirmed though as we don't want to medicate them for nothing.