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Author Topic: What Ram?  (Read 3572 times)

Keelan H

  • Joined Mar 2016
What Ram?
« on: April 17, 2016, 04:52:58 pm »
Hi all, i recently bought 3 Norfolk Horn shearlings, i'm planning ahead and trying to decide what ram i'll put them to. I want to make it easy for the first lambing, and i've been offered the loan of my friends Shetland ram, i know this would produce small easy to deliver lambs, that would be great for hogget and mutton (My main reason for keeping them). However, i also have a lovely Wilts Horn Ram lamb born late Feb that i want to keep and use as my ram anyway, so i was wondering would he manage to cover the three ewes this year and would the lambs be of relative ease for them to deliver? I think the two horned breeds would make an interesting cross also! I'd love to hear your opinions on this,
many thanks,
Keelan

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: What Ram?
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2016, 05:18:19 pm »
It's probably not of interest to you, but Norfolk Horn is a lovely, lovely fleece to spin.   :spin:  Crossing with Shetland would give a really interesting fleece, whereas the Wilts Horn is a shedder, so likely to pass that attribute to the offspring.

Other than that, the WH is a little larger than the NH, but not massively so.  I'd certainly have no qualms about using the WH in subsequent years, and probably not on gimmer shearlings.   All depends on how difficult it would be for you to have the loaner tup for these 3, I guess.
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Keelan H

  • Joined Mar 2016
Re: What Ram?
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2016, 05:31:57 pm »
Hi Sallyintnorth, thanks for the reply! I never thought about the fleece, would it be in demand?i am leaning towards the Shetland cross to be honest. By using him it'll allow my WH to be at his best next year.

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: What Ram?
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2016, 10:45:51 pm »
The fleeces - of the ewes and of their Shetland cross offspring - would certainly be of interest to handspinners, yes.  Not every fleece,that should be nice to spin, is, even from sheep whose last year's fleece was nice, and has been kept the same way this year ::), mind, so no guarantees - but if clipped at the right time and looked after properly, then you should get interest,yes.  Perhaps it might tempt you to have a go at spinning yourself?  :innocent:
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Marches Farmer

  • Joined Dec 2012
  • Herefordshire
Re: What Ram?
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2016, 10:34:56 am »
Norfolk Horn X Southdown is the original cross that produced the Suffolk breed.

farmershort

  • Joined Nov 2010
Re: What Ram?
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2016, 10:49:55 am »
it's the head that's your main issue in this situation.... i.e. stay away from the beltex/texel stuff as they have *massive* heads.

anything small than that would have been fine I'd have thought. my tuppence worth would be to say - can't you borrow a norfolk horn ram from the society, given that they're a rare breed? I know they're recovering now, so perhaps less of a concern than it once was. Otherwise, southdown is a good shout, along with most native down breeds really.... suffolk again probably falls into the big-head category.


devonlad

  • Joined Nov 2012
  • Nr Crediton in Devon
Re: What Ram?
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2016, 11:32:50 am »
We used a wilts horn ram lamb on our WH ewes (including 2 shearlings) and it was successful. He was actually an April born and we put him in in Nov. At first it looked like a unfair fight as he was barely half their size. I think living on a hill might have helped him  :eyelashes: The 2 youngsters lambed the easiest (one double and one single) but the older ewes had a tougher time. Poss due to us skipping lambing last year and them being over conditioned.

Keelan H

  • Joined Mar 2016
Re: What Ram?
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2016, 11:41:11 am »
Thanks for all the replies guys! I'm looking into hand-spinning, it's a side I've never quite thought about before :) The Southdown seems like an attractive option, will it produce an easy lambing? I'll keep an eye out for a Southdown Ram, if all fails i'll use my young WH ram lamb. Does anyone own a SD ram in the Wiltshire area? :innocent:

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: What Ram?
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2016, 01:29:35 pm »
it's the head that's your main issue in this situation.... i.e. stay away from the beltex/texel stuff as they have *massive* heads.

It's not the head.  People get hung up about heads, because when lambs get stuck, the head swells, making it hard to push back in to sort out the legs.  I've had heads too large to push back in in pure Swaledale matings, due to this swelling up. 

The only breed in which the head can be an issue, as far as I know, is something like an Exmoor Horn, where the unborn male lambs already have significant horn buds.  In a good single tup lamb, the bony width of the horned skull can be an issue - hence why Exmoor Horn breeders always strive for twins.

With Beltex and Texel lambs, the significant width is at the shoulders and sometimes also the buttocks.  However, frankly, if the ewe is of more native or primitive breeding, there is much less likelihood of there being an issue.  Partly because the ewe has no internal double muscling, and partly because the crossbred Texel lamb hasn't quite the conformation of a more purebred one.

All of which said, I'd hesitate to use an unknown Texel or Beltex tup on a first-timer of any breed, except perhaps a Swaledale Mule.  Even the pedigree Beltex breeders have been known to use a Shetland tup for the first mating, to get easily-lambed, active lambs that know how to find the milk bar ;)
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Big Light

  • Joined Aug 2011
    • Facebook
Re: What Ram?
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2016, 01:35:32 pm »
We have been trialling using a Southdown tup on some of our Hebrideans and Shetlands which are currently lambing

- not had a problem with any of the lambings so far, lambs quickly on their feet and big strong lambs so very happy so far.

- If you want to see there are pictures of our cross lambs on our Hebridean Face book page ( see link below ) just scroll through the pure lambs and you will find a few pics. Will see how they finish but very happy so far! :thumbsup:

farmershort

  • Joined Nov 2010
Re: What Ram?
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2016, 01:47:02 pm »
it's the head that's your main issue in this situation.... i.e. stay away from the beltex/texel stuff as they have *massive* heads.

It's not the head.  People get hung up about heads, because when lambs get stuck, the head swells, making it hard to push back in to sort out the legs.  I've had heads too large to push back in in pure Swaledale matings, due to this swelling up. 

The only breed in which the head can be an issue, as far as I know, is something like an Exmoor Horn, where the unborn male lambs already have significant horn buds.  In a good single tup lamb, the bony width of the horned skull can be an issue - hence why Exmoor Horn breeders always strive for twins.

With Beltex and Texel lambs, the significant width is at the shoulders and sometimes also the buttocks.  However, frankly, if the ewe is of more native or primitive breeding, there is much less likelihood of there being an issue.  Partly because the ewe has no internal double muscling, and partly because the crossbred Texel lamb hasn't quite the conformation of a more purebred one.

All of which said, I'd hesitate to use an unknown Texel or Beltex tup on a first-timer of any breed, except perhaps a Swaledale Mule.  Even the pedigree Beltex breeders have been known to use a Shetland tup for the first mating, to get easily-lambed, active lambs that know how to find the milk bar ;)

I've lambed several single texel cross lambs which have heads far bigger than the "opening" can comfortably accomodate. I take the point about shoulders too, but the pre-swolen head is still a factor in my experience.

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: What Ram?
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2016, 02:19:54 pm »
That's interesting.  What were the ewes?
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

farmershort

  • Joined Nov 2010
Re: What Ram?
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2016, 02:26:11 pm »
That's interesting.  What were the ewes?

from memory, I think we had it with the following (although always the younger ewes, and only the odd occurance - singles being biggest problem):

whitefaced woodland ewes

whitefaced woodland x southdown ewes

welsh halfbred ewes

always with a texel ram. perhaps the other useful thing to say is that, to boil-down several factors, one could say that head-size is an indicator for other over-sized areas. I hear the same from my welsh hill farmer friends, and they're running much higher numbers than I ever did.

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: What Ram?
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2016, 02:28:44 pm »
Well, I've no personal experience with Welsh sheep apart from Lleyns, nor with WFW or Southdown.  Perhaps they're less generous across the pelvis than the northern and primitive types I'm used to.
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

 

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