[Fleecewife]

We use our Jack Russell to bring in the flock.  He's not perfect but he does help.  In the past we have used a German Shepherd and an Irish WolfhoundxAnatolian Karabash.  Apart from the GS, those are not typical sheepdogs and we don't use them in quite the same way.  The GS responded well to ordinary words such as 'go round', 'bring them back' and so on, but we never tried 'come bye' and so on, or a whistle.
So it's been a case of learning what the dog can do then adapting how we bring in the sheep to that.
With the Jack Russell, as soon as he knows it's time to round up some sheep, he starts to make a yipping noise - it's very annoying but we have noticed that as soon as he sounds off the sheep know they have to be rounded up, they kind of submit and instead of running off in all directions (as primitives can do  ) they start to head in the right direction.   We usually use him between the two of us, so he runs back and forth between us, not letting any sheep through the invisible line he makes.  He can also be used by one though and will run round in the direction we indicate.  Sometimes he's an idiot and cuts the flock in half, but then we just start again.
We do use the bucket method to move the flock from field to field, but as soon as our sheep know we want to catch them they tend to b###r off, hence the usefulness of a dog - they seem to respect him, in spite of how small he is, far more than they do us.  They know they can run rings round us on our own 
For most of the time, ie when we are not rounding up the sheep, the JR wanders around amongst them and is on excellent terms with them.  The GS used to ask them politely to move, and the giant wolfie cross just used to stand there creating a blockage, or go up to the group we wanted, especially the Soays, then we would call her back and they would follow her 
So what I'm trying to say is that if you are using a dog which is not typically a sheep dog then how you use it would be different.  Rather than sending her off to be trained by someone else, it would be better for you both to learn together so you can work together in a way which suits you, your dog and your flock.  It doesn't happen overnight either.

[thestephens]

isnt that why we have children? we have been known to use the kids and most of the time they do listen! We have a black lab who is too proud to walk behind the sheep but likes to sit on the back of the quad with the humans and supervise!!!!

[doganjo]

weis are more human than us.  more willful than a naughty child but once they are yours they are yours for life.  she loves to be outside which is why i want to give her the chance to work in some way

Ok - will try to help.

Malcolm doesn't train anyone else's dogs, he takes the Brits shooting, but as they have sheep and some of the dogs seemed to herd rather than chase, plus he didn't want any chasing sheep while out shooting, he trained his own dogs accordingly.

A weim is like any other HPR - Brits aren't particularly known for their retrieving skills either - all of mine will go out for one or maybe two dummies - if sent out for a third they acknowledge on their way past it to go off hunting   

BUT, they all retrieve anything that used to be alive - rabbits, birds of any size or shape - whether just shot or a zillion years old.   Some of the stuff I have to take willingly is just disgusting - but you MUST take it.  It is their gift to you.

In training an HPR you must encourage it to go running far - they hunt well outwith gun range(50 yards or so, mine will range 300 plus yards - can be a bit scary at first  ), but that should help with collecting your sheep.  First of all, you must train the instant recall (although with HPRs if they are on point or on a hot trail they will only recall when that has been suitably comopleted to their sdatisfaction  ) You must also train the stop - usually on the whistle - you need that if the dog is going  too far or coming in too fast.  A turn command would be useful too for obvious reasons. 

I use a 211.5 whistle, and one beep means sit, two beeps means turn, 3 beeps means come back in.  A long hard blast means 'whatever you are doing get your bum on the floor NOW'

Hope that helps, if you want her to retrieve though, try a tennis ball or a dummy covered in rabbit skin - or wing feathers from a pheasant - and make a big fun happy noisy game of it when she even just sniffs or touches the retrieve article.

[smudger]

isnt that why we have children?

 

and copious rattling of buckets and shouts of "girls" (even to the boys).

Didn't stop me getting a BC puppy, however!

[Fleecewife]

isnt that why we have children?

The trouble with children is they grow up and move away then you're left on your own with the same problem but now you're old and creaky 

[horsemadmummy]

i have 5 children and they are useless they can often be seen being herded by the geese!  its the funny farm here

[Yeoman]

Some breeds will naturally take to it better.  Other breeds tend to be too manic and aggressive.

It depends what you want to do.  I borrowed a friend and her black lab to help bring some sheep in and the lab did a great job.  She ran between my friend and I and stayed put when told to do so.  She really was helpful and had no specific sheep training.

I'd go for something you know you can train well enough to rely on not to do anything silly when with your sheep.  Even being able to 'hold' the sheep while you open a gate or grab a ewe, is very helpful.

If you want to turn up at the field, let the dog go and just open the gate when the dog brings them back then you probably need a specialist ;-)

Good luck and enjoy.

[woollyval]

I used to move a 150 head flock by bucket! Its quite easy. Problems with using dogs is that they want/need to work a lot, not just the few times a month/year etc you want them to. Also if you have primitives they tend to scatter in the face of a dog rather than flock....hence they are never used on one man and his dog 

If I want to catch specific sheep I find catching the whole lot and then getting hold of the one I want far less stressful than trying to catch one!

There is another downside to involving dogs with sheep.....if they are allowed to 'chase' yours they tend to think they can 'chase' anyones...freelance collies are a menace near here!

[in the hills]

Ahhhhh ..... thats it Woollyval!

Was reading these posts and wondering why my Flat- coat was so useless. Only any good at sitting and staying and hence blocking a sheepy escape route and brilliant at one thing ..... emptying the woodstore. 

Its not his fault ........ its those Soay!!!!!

[doganjo]

Problems with using dogs is that they want/need to work a lot, not just the few times a month/year etc you want them to. Also if you have primitives they tend to scatter in the face of a dog rather than flock....hence they are never used on one man and his dog 

Not entirely true.  Might be with collies, never had any myself.  Most working gundogs I know are worked only from early October to end January - only trained for short periods in summer.  My three will go for a quick half hour run, a longer two hour one, a 10 minute training session, four hour working morning, a whole day shooting, or just zonk in front of the fire (or under my feet at the computer as they are now) - whatever I decide to do with them.

Sheep will scatter from a dog they don't know and bunch if they trust the dog (known to them) So I was told anyway, and it looked that way when Malcolm was testing the other Brittanys that day.   They mostly bunched when Bobby went right out to the end of the field and pushed them towards us, and scattered a little as tehy moved, then he went to teh side to push them back in.  He'd never been near a sheep befofe except when we had the wee orphan last year and he played at play bumps with that one.

[Bramblecot]

Some really good tips on this thread.    Please don't give up on your Wmr - a nice biddable bitch should be able to help you no end with the sheep; you just need to work out how you can work as a team.  And FW is quite right that you need to learn together - said with feeling as a retired working dog trainer   

[feldar]

We once went to look at some sheep at a large farm in Wiltshire and the dogs the chap used to gather them up was a collie cross spaniel and a staffordshire bull terrier! both those dogs worked brilliantly and although they didn't pen the sheep they  both did an outrun to get them and then held them in a corner of the field for us to look the sheep over.
My collie wasn't up to their standard, fab