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Author Topic: Liver fluke - Central Scotland- when to do it? With what?  (Read 9137 times)

JMB

  • Joined Apr 2011
Liver fluke - Central Scotland- when to do it? With what?
« on: January 14, 2012, 02:16:23 pm »
Hello.
We've just done our sheep with Fasimec Duo for liver fluke. We gave them this last year in September/October.
My first question is- do we vaccinate against liver fluke again in April?
I thought so, but someone said just give them worming medicine, as liver fluke shouldn't be too prominent at that time of year (although we are in Central Scotland and it has rained ALOT)
Second question is- if we DO vaccinate for liver fluke again, we have been advised to change brands each year so the sheep do not become resistant. But I'm pretty sure the other brands contain the same liver fluke medicine anyway.
Very confused now. Any help would be gratefuly received.
Thank you, Joanne xxxxx
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 03:25:52 pm by JMB »

Dougal

  • Joined Jul 2011
  • Port O' Menteith, Stirlingshire
Re: Liver fluke - Central Scotland- when to do it? With what?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2012, 02:34:59 pm »
I may be wrong but is fasinex a liver fluke only drench? I normally dose with combinex twice a year (i'm in aberdeenshire on some pretty marginal boggy ground so fluke is prevelent).
I dose my ewes in November and Febuary or May (depends on the type of winter, wet and mild = febuary. hard and cold = may) for fluke. The ewes are dosed for worms at the scanning (febuary) lamb marking (may when lambs get their first dose), spaining (weaning, when they are being sorted for culls etc, all the lambs are done at the same time) and then at pretupping in November. I make two of the four doses flukicide as well as worm drenches and swap between clear, white and pink drenches for the other two drenches in order to slow resistance. I'm not sure that there is the same variety for drenches that do for fluke although closamectin is an injectable solution so that is probably a 'clear' ivermectin based drug rather than the white combinex that I normally use.
Liver Fluke seems pretty easy to keep on top of so long as you know the signs or dose regularly. It's carried by a snail that lives in wet marshy areas (You probably know all this!). The snail has the same habits of any snails, don't like it too dry or too cold so keeping an eye on the prevailing weather will let you know when best to treat.
If untreated affected ewes and cattle develop a thick lumb on the underside of their jaw (bottle jaw) and lose a lot of weight. Lambs tend to just become listless and thin before developing a black scour... then they die pretty soon after the scour starts! That said the flukicide works really very quickly and the liver function seems to sort it's self just as quick so it's never too late to dose.
Hope this helps.
It's always worse for someone else, so get your moaning done before they start using up all the available symathy!

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Liver fluke - Central Scotland- when to do it? With what?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2012, 03:35:36 pm »
I just wrote a long and tactful post and it disappeared, so apologies : this will be more terse.

In flukey areas, sheep need to be drenched for fluke every 6-8 weeks throughout the flukey season.  Here in wet north Cumbria, in years with wet summers, 'the season' is all year round.  In 'normal ' years, it's October through March.

Some fluke treatments kill only adult fluke, some adults and eggs, some get juveniles too.  You have to take all that into account when calculating your repeat dose dates and when you can safely stop treating.

Fasinex and Combinex contain the same fluke treatment.  Combinex does worms too.  Here, we don't usualy have worms in winter, so we'd use Fasinex in winter and maybe Combinex in March.

Sorry I don't have time to write more at the moment.
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

JMB

  • Joined Apr 2011
Re: Liver fluke - Central Scotland- when to do it? With what?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2012, 04:08:42 pm »
Thanks for your replies. I'm assuming our Fasimec Duos is the same as Fasinex? Fasimec Duo says it treats and controls gastrointestinal worms, lungworms, nasal bots and liver fluke from immature to adult forms.
Goodness Sally- I didn''t realise you could treat every 6-8 weeks!
We do have fluke here- had 2 sheep die from it last year (we were new sheep keepers, no idea what we were doing until 2 had bottle jaw and it was too late) and the horse nextdoor got it too, which apparantly is rare.
And Dougal- we are expecting our first lambs this year, and it hadn't occurred to me yet they'd need dosing so thanks for that.
I shall look at Combinex next I think as you both use it, although it seems to contain the same fluke treatment. Maybe it is impossible to change the fluke treatment. When people advise that you swap brands every year to avoid resistance, maybe it's worms they are talking about.
Anyway, that has been a help.
Thank you, ,Joanne xxx

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: Liver fluke - Central Scotland- when to do it? With what?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2012, 05:28:32 pm »
I only treat for fluke twice a year, straight after lambing on turning out and again in autumn (then both lambs for growing on and adults). I don't have worms here, so only use straight Fasinex. Worked fine so far.

If your fields are really bad I would speak to the local sheep vet and take his advice.

Rosemary

  • Joined Oct 2007
  • Barry, Angus, Scotland
    • The Accidental Smallholder
Re: Liver fluke - Central Scotland- when to do it? With what?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2012, 05:46:41 pm »
Fasimec Duo S is a combined flukicide and wormer containing ivermectin (wormer) and triclabendazole (flukicide). Fasinex is only a flukicide containing triclabendazole.

It's not the barnd that matters, it's the active ingredient(s) - in this case ivermecin and triclabendazole.

I suggest that you speak to your vet and get some advice about health planning, based on your conditions and mannagement methods.

There is also resistance in fluke so you do need to take that into account as well as wormer resistance.

Get hold of Tim Tyne's book - "The Sheep Book for Smallholders" and read it cover to cover. It's very good and will help you loads to understand what you are doing and why.

We're in the east, so fluke is less of a problem (so far) but we fluke and worm twice a year at lambing and before tupping and we worm test during the year to check that our management (rotational, multispecies grazing and wormer) is effective, but the tests don't work for fluke.

Seriously, your vet is your best partner in this and they will be happy to advise.

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: Liver fluke - Central Scotland- when to do it? With what?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2012, 05:51:47 pm »
where in central scotland are you      we know the area round us is supposed to be very bad for fluke
we use combinex twice a year :farmer:

BrookfieldFarm

  • Joined Jul 2010
  • Welshpool- Shropshire/ Powys
Re: Liver fluke - Central Scotland- when to do it? With what?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2012, 07:19:15 pm »
The best times to treat for fluke are:
With a triclabendazole (active ingredient) in Autumn. This will kill off all flukes over 1 week old.
With an adulticide in winter (a standard flukicide) this will kill off any adults (over 4 weeks) already developed.
In April, this is the time when eggs are shed by the adults so Re-treat with an adulticide fluke drench.
Some say to dose and move off high-risk pasture in Mid-July but you do have the worry in increasing resistance. The real thing to do would at this time, only drench some of the lambs as this promotes the lambs/ewes to create a natural immunity.
Hope this helps!

SteveHants

  • Joined Aug 2011
Re: Liver fluke - Central Scotland- when to do it? With what?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2012, 11:18:53 am »
I used to routinely dose for worms/fluke, but this year I will make a move over to fecal egg counting and dose when counts are high. I hadn't realised FEC doesn't pick up flukes as stated elsewhere in the thread. Used to use combinex.

Interestingly, I have recently discovered that suceptability to worms is genetic and am wondering how to sort a cull policy based on this info as I haven't got the time or the inclination to take FECs on every ewe.

More on this here:http://www.sig.uk.com/why-sig (last paragraph)

I had already twigged that bad feet are genetic and the owners of any feet I have to treat will be gone. All this marks the transition from being a hobbyist to someone who intends to make his living from sheep, I can't be turning sheep over all the time if I manage to build up to 500 ewes (as is my intention - 90ac aquired so far this year, only another 160 to go...)

Dougal

  • Joined Jul 2011
  • Port O' Menteith, Stirlingshire
Re: Liver fluke - Central Scotland- when to do it? With what?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2012, 12:22:59 pm »
Once the lambs are about three to four weeks old when they are starting to really eat the grass I dose them with a wormer (not normally one for fluke at this stage) they are vaccinated with heptevac P to protect them against pulpy kidney etc. I usually give them a mineral drench at the same time. Ewes are dosed and crutched out at the same time.
It's always worse for someone else, so get your moaning done before they start using up all the available symathy!

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Liver fluke - Central Scotland- when to do it? With what?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2012, 12:26:37 pm »
I had already twigged that bad feet are genetic and the owners of any feet I have to treat will be gone. All this marks the transition from being a hobbyist to someone who intends to make his living from sheep, I can't be turning sheep over all the time if I manage to build up to 500 ewes
Well, I thought the same as you, but BH, who has farmed 300+ sheep all his life, maintains that a ewe who has bad feet once should then be immune to problems - so it's the repeat offenders to cull. 
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

JMB

  • Joined Apr 2011
Re: Liver fluke - Central Scotland- when to do it? With what?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2012, 02:02:37 pm »
Thank you very much for all your valuable advice. I shall ask my vet, although I have already asked about this before. We only have a bit of land- we're in Callander by the way- so fencing off areas wasn't an option, or moving the sheep elsewhere. We were just advised to fluke in Sept/Oct, January and April.
So far we have used Fasimec Duos, but I want to change this for the next dosing.
Just out of interest, someone has given me a report from the Morwedun Foundation titled 'Liver Fluke Disease in Sheep and Cattle' and that mentions other active ingreients for liver fluke, in addition to Triclabendazole.
These are Closantel - as Dougal alreay mentioned- (found in Closamectin) and Albendazole (haven't looked for dthe product yet as can't use in pregnant ewes) and online I found that Trodax contains Nitroxynil.
I was thinking, in terms of resistance, of trying one of these other ones?
As for bad feet, my small herd of Hebrideans are doing very well despite traipsing through mud. It has been a particularly rainy winter.
Oh, and Rosemary- I do have Tim Tyne's book and it's great, but he only mentions maybe having to fluke twice a year, and has a nice picture of a bottle-jawed sheep, unless I missed some other information. I just assumed maybe it wasn't a problem in his area. Maybe I need to read it again (currently on lambing section, making me nervous, hoping a lambing course comes up...).
Sorry- I'm digressing. Thanks again for your help. If anyone has experience of using Trodax or Closamectin, or any advice on whether it's a good idea to switch to these next, please let me know.

Re the worming kits, I bought one from Smallholders Supplies and although it doesn't say online that they test for fluke, you can request it. Think it only records adult flukes though.
The vet did some tests when our 2 sheep died (not sure it would be the same test as the home kit) but although they came back clear, it can be a false positive, or vice versa.

Just thought of another question. We were advised to fluke drench next in April. Our first lambs will hopefully come mid April and I'm now assuming that dosing the ewes should be after lambing before being turned out?
Thanks again., Joanne xxxx
.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 02:25:57 pm by JMB »

SteveHants

  • Joined Aug 2011
Re: Liver fluke - Central Scotland- when to do it? With what?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2012, 02:24:21 pm »
I had already twigged that bad feet are genetic and the owners of any feet I have to treat will be gone. All this marks the transition from being a hobbyist to someone who intends to make his living from sheep, I can't be turning sheep over all the time if I manage to build up to 500 ewes
Well, I thought the same as you, but BH, who has farmed 300+ sheep all his life, maintains that a ewe who has bad feet once should then be immune to problems - so it's the repeat offenders to cull.
I believe, according to the research, certain individuals act as carriers so it could be that those ewes you only have to do once are the ones that re-infect the rest of your flock. I know of people who have a "one strike" policy, ie any sheep they have to handle for a hereditary trait (this includes difficulty lambing and trimming overgrown feet) goes. This seems to be eminently sensible in larger flocks, although I imagine its not quite as financially viable in smaller ones. From what I can gather, this policy is reaping rewards to the farmer in question. He also says that its surprising how few you have to cull, perhaps showing repeat offenders make up a massive portion of a shepherds workload.

Dougal

  • Joined Jul 2011
  • Port O' Menteith, Stirlingshire
Re: Liver fluke - Central Scotland- when to do it? With what?
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2012, 05:52:12 pm »
Closamectin is pretty easy to use. Has to be warmed to at least 15'C before use if I remember right. Not a problem though. Keep it in the motor with the heater running until you need to use it and it'll be fine. It is an injectable solution, just below the skin. I use short needles and inject in the neck but every one has their favoured way of injecting.
It's always worse for someone else, so get your moaning done before they start using up all the available symathy!

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Liver fluke - Central Scotland- when to do it? With what?
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2012, 09:04:01 am »
I find the compendium at Noah very useful for looking up the different drugs
http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Compendium-datasheets_A-Z/Datasheets/-23637.html
It doesn't have all of them but it does have many and is very easy to use.

We did a thread on fluke a little while ago - here's my post on repeat intervals :
http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=19094.msg179178#msg179178

Closamectin for sheep is the new kid on the block.  It's very broad spectrum, one jag does fluke, worms, external parasites including scab.  As Dougal says, it has to be warmed up and it comes in special packs with a heating thingy.  We used it for the first time last year and said never again; it was very difficult to keep it warm enough for the fluid to flow, it clearly stings the sheep, some of whom buck and rear like rodeo champions after being jagged.  The heat was really difficult to maintain - it'll pretty much by definition be winter when you're using it; we use it for the post-tupping treatment, and we'll typically be doing 30 to 50 sheep in a batch, so even if it's warm when you start it's cooled and thickened before you're half way through. 

Read on, though.

We've just done the whole flock with it again.   ::) :D  We worked a lot harder at maintaining the heat and managed to keep it flowing - just - for each batch.  Dougal's idea of keeping it on a warm engine is a good one; we had the radiator on all day and it sat on there from dawn and between batches.  I'd still say it's difficult to use, but it did such a good job and you cover so many treatments in one shot, we decided it was worth the difficulty.
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

 

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