[Solexious]

Hello all, first post here!

We recently bought our new home and I think it can class as a small holding, has 8 acres and a barn, stables and a small orchard.

My question is permitted development on a small holding. The curtilage, from what I see people do a lot with the land on their small holding, permitted development can let you do a fair bit, but its restricted to the curtilage of the house. We have an obvious garden to the front and back, walled in, flat ish with flower beds, greenhouse etc. The rest of the land are obvious fields, mostly rectangular, hedge rows with field gates etc. (surrounding the house and garden on 3 sides)

So I'm wondering, if we wanted to put say a chicken coop, or a poly tunnel, or a  shed etc that would normally be ok within PD onto the field land?

Is a Smallholding a legal definition in terms of planning? Or would it be more like residential land for the house and gardens, then agriculture for the fields?

Cheers

Charles

[Bywaters]

Not sure of your location, but, from my experience in Yorkshire, permitted development of a building can only be done once, and is limited to extentions on particular sides, ie not the front and then it can only project a certain distance etc etc, but all that is on the planning portal. It gets interesting when the planners have a view on what constitutes the front

In terms of agriculture, if it is a registered Holding and you are over 5 ha, you can build all sorts of things subject to various conditions, but the planners can object on siting and appearance

As you are under the 5 ha, anything you do is likle yto come under planning regulations so it would be advisable to have a conversation with either a planning consultant or the planning officer of your local council

Rules in Scotland are very probably different

[chrismahon]

I think you will find that the 'curtilage' is the area immediately surrounding the house and defined by boundaries. The rest will be agricultural. To my knowledge the term ' smallholding' has no relevance to planning regulations.


Some people in my old village fell foul of these curtilage regulations. They bought sections of farmland at the end of their gardens and removed their rear boundary hedges. The local Councillor, who wasn't offered any of the land, took exception to this and brought the planning department in to make life unpleasant for the purchasers. End result was, after the whole episode dragged out for two years leaving one woman unable to complete the sale of her house until over, that all the sheds, flower beds, bushes, ornamental trees and garden furniture had to be removed. The grass could only be cut twice a year and the only thing planted on it could be fruit trees. The original boundaries had to be re-instated.


Before you drop yourself into a pot of problems I would strongly advise a conversation with your planning department. You can always put it in writing later for a binding response from them, but that may not even be necessary.

[Fleecewife]

I agree with speaking with your local planning department.  Contrary to popular belief, they are actually human 
I'm in Scotland.  When we moved here 30 years ago, initially we had no idea we had to comply with planning regs for anything small, so we put up various small sheds, poultry houses and moved a couple of gateways onto the road.  Then we needed to erect a barn so we approached the planners.  They couldn't have been more helpful and even gave us retrospective permission for one or two things which had needed their nod of approval.  They even suggested we seek permission for things they could see we would need shortly. All very helpful and calm, no drama.

[Solexious]

Not sure of your location, but, from my experience in Yorkshire, permitted development of a building can only be done once, and is limited to extentions on particular sides, ie not the front and then it can only project a certain distance etc etc, but all that is on the planning portal. It gets interesting when the planners have a view on what constitutes the front

Ah, sorry I should have been more explicit. Rather than extensions to the house (its currently more than we need) I was talking about the PD rights you have to put up temporary structures like the sheds and shed like things that you are allowed to put on the curtilage to the rear of the front of the house and a max of 50% of the area. We have the garden to the rear, then a field too. So wondering if I can get away with adding polytunnels to the field at the back rather than taking up the garden.

And this is in Shrewsbury.

[Solexious]

I think you will find that the 'curtilage' is the area immediately surrounding the house and defined by boundaries. The rest will be agricultural. To my knowledge the term ' smallholding' has no relevance to planning regulations.


Some people in my old village fell foul of these curtilage regulations. They bought sections of farmland at the end of their gardens and removed their rear boundary hedges. The local Councillor, who wasn't offered any of the land, took exception to this and brought the planning department in to make life unpleasant for the purchasers. End result was, after the whole episode dragged out for two years leaving one woman unable to complete the sale of her house until over, that all the sheds, flower beds, bushes, ornamental trees and garden furniture had to be removed. The grass could only be cut twice a year and the only thing planted on it could be fruit trees. The original boundaries had to be re-instated.


Before you drop yourself into a pot of problems I would strongly advise a conversation with your planning department. You can always put it in writing later for a binding response from them, but that may not even be necessary.

Definitely only thinking of doing "smallholding like things" on the fields, like raised beds for veg growing, polytunnels for the same, keeping chickens, maybe a pond for geese etc.

I guess I have seen youtube channels like English Country Life where it seems like all their land is being used for more than "just" a grass field and would want to do the same.

[Solexious]

I agree with speaking with your local planning department.  Contrary to popular belief, they are actually human 
I'm in Scotland.  When we moved here 30 years ago, initially we had no idea we had to comply with planning regs for anything small, so we put up various small sheds, poultry houses and moved a couple of gateways onto the road.  Then we needed to erect a barn so we approached the planners.  They couldn't have been more helpful and even gave us retrospective permission for one or two things which had needed their nod of approval.  They even suggested we seek permission for things they could see we would need shortly. All very helpful and calm, no drama.

I have had a look into this, annoyingly it seems you have to put in a formal request and make a payment to get pre-planning advice, so we need to know what we are asking for before we do it.

There doesn't seem to be the option to have then come around for a nice chat and a cup of tea. Wouldn't find paying for their time to do that.

[Solexious]

So reading your replies (thanks all), I guess without needing to get advice from the local planning office, I would need to stick to what's allowed on agricultural land with what we do in the fields.

What's the best way to check exactly what bit of land is marked as what? Anyone know/have links for what the rules are with what you can do on the fields?

And a more general question, does anyone have advice for making sure I'm doing the right things in the right place when kick starting this place back into being a small holding?

[doganjo]

Wouldn't you have a map with your deeds?  We did for our 24 acres, but it was in Scotland.  The fields were all marked out as p & w, which took us a long time to work out being 'toonsers'  ,  but it showed what was in the curtilage and what was agricultural.  We went down teh farming route anyway with sheep and cattle

I have a feeling the the word agriculture is looked on differently in different areas of the country, so your local council (shire) may have something on their website

I'd have thought polytunnels would be agri

Planning permission for commercial polytunnels
Commercial grounds, such as farms, are generally covered by the same planning permission rules as everywhere else, and if your land is over 5 hectares you have rights to erect buildings for agricultural purposes (under a certain size). When it comes to getting planning permission for commercial polytunnels, you’ll need to stick to the regulations in the section above.

Googles and found this from First Tunnels - Generally, you will only need permission for agricultural land if:
You’re applying for grants to fund your project - you might need planning permission
You are changing how you use the land. E.g. you are changing farmland into housing

In these cases, you should check with your local authority before going ahead with construction.

You can find further advice on planning permission for farms on the gov.uk website here.

HTH

[Bywaters]

surely, unless the land is a registered "agricultural holding"  what it might be called is meaningless, as planning permission would still be needed (unless temporary buildings) as the "holding" is under 5 ha

This, in my opinion, is the first step  ;
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/apply-for-a-county-parish-holding-cph-number

The CPH number allows you to keep livestock and (I believe) the Council are notified (animal health etc etc)

As you are under the 5ha (12.3 acres) the Council will require you to apply for planning permission for almost everything, as there are no permitted development rights on a holding less than 5ha, other than that for the dwelling or maybe outbuilding(s)

[SallyintNorth]

There are often additional rules (meaning pp required) if whatever you want to do is within 400m of another house or a road.

Check out your local online planning register's search capability.  You might be able to find other people's applications (successful and not) for the same things you're wanting to do, so seeing the decision notice and supporting materials will give you a lot of information about what sort of thing they'll approve.

[doganjo]

There are often additional rules (meaning pp required) if whatever you want to do is within 400m of another house or a road.

Check out your local online planning register's search capability.  You might be able to find other people's applications (successful and not) for the same things you're wanting to do, so seeing the decision notice and supporting materials will give you a lot of information about what sort of thing they'll approve.

And you can quote them as a precedent in any dispute 

[Possum]

Chicken coops and garden sheds in your fields and orchard will be fine. No permission needed. Non- commercial polytunnels are also fine so long as you don't use concrete to fix them into the ground. If you do, it counts as a permanent structure and does require permission.

[Backinwellies]

Some of this will depend on neighbours ....  a  polytunnel for example probably should require planning.  But cost of that probably not worth it to just grow your own veg.  If poly is out of sight of neighbours and you don't have a 'nasty' neighbour .... then just do it! (Dont quote me when planning man arrives  )