[Gardners Cottage]

Hi guys,
Novice question! I have few 2 Zwartbles and 3 cross Zwartbles and suffolk
They are just about 5 months old and probably they will go to the tup this late fall (Nov). IS this a wise move or they are too young?
Second question. I am trying to identify a nice Zwartble tup to keep the breeding and perhaps a suffolk tup. So I can 'rectify' back the suffolk (they truly look suffolk (brown... perhaps unusual but interesting).

So far so good.. but would a suffolk tup live happily together with a zwartlble? any advice?

I am also looking for some horned species, for instance jacobs and hebridian and perhaps some more rare breed. Options for the ewe lambs are pretty small and weaned lambs will be available in august so probably a bit premature for mating. If I do get older ewes, gimmers or hogs the plan would be to breed with a pure breed and avoid cross.
This make me in a difficult situation of having to keep more males.
Some of this breed may be small than the Suffolk and Zwartbles but the question is.. can all these 4 boys live together? They will have to share probably a couple of acres together although I have some additional land to place them in. 
Also, although risky for first year tups, to gamble on their capabilities, would 2 tups of the same breed add any benefit? i.e. ram and teaser and vice versa, 'clan' advantage against horned... 'jelouasy and stimualtion during mating?
I am sure few comments will be on the 'too many breeds.. stick on one!' They will serve different purposes but I would really appreciate some advices.

Best wishes,

Antonio
 

[silkwoodzwartbles]

I don't breed my Zwartbles until the autumn of their second year (i.e. they'd be about 18 months old when they go to the tup and coming to 2 years old when they lamb) but I know of people whose lambs have got in with the tup by mistake and they've been fine. I've got a lamb now who was born in January and is already over 50kg so I'm sure she'd tup fine, but I'll let her grow on and put her to the tup next year - I like them to have the time to be babies.

My husband has Berrichons and I have the Zs and our tups live together year round except for tupping very happily. We've just put the weaned ram lambs and a new bought in ram lamb in with our stock tups and they're very happy living as a bachelor flock. I'd be more wary of having horned and polled tups together though as if they did have a tiff, I suspect the polled tup would come off a lot worse.

[bj_cardiff]

If your a novice I would leave the ewes until they are over a year old before breeding them. Lots of people do successfully lamb their ewe lambs, but every time I have tried its been hit and miss - you are more likely to have to problems than with older ewes.

[twizzel]

Lambing ewe lambs is not for novice keepers, with the right ram and very careful controlled feeding it is possible, but it can go terribly wrong especially if they are not scanned and are overfed. They must be at least 60% of their mature body weight. I tupped one last year that excelled all summer growth wise, she went to a lleyn and lambed easily but her diet was very controlled.


R.e tups, you’ve got to watch for them fighting when you first introduce and bring together after tupping and shearing. They need penning up tight for a few days each time they come back together, even more important if you want to keep polled and horned tups together.

[Womble]

We have tupped bought in Zwartbles in their first year, but they were all January born, bought from show flocks, fed well, and then tupped in November for lambing in April.


With our own April born lambs, we always leave them until the next year.


Antonio - It does seem like that's a lot of boys to look after. Why not pick just one or two boys and try for a year? Then you can always try different ones the year after?

If you're desperate for lambs (I know we were in our first year), you could buy some already pregnant ("in-lamb") ewes this Autumn, which will give you the best of everything.

[harmony]

You need secure fields to keep tups in if they haven't got anything to do, and actually even if they have something to do. Come tupping time if you can't contain them they will be a nuisance to you and your neighbours, which could be costly.

[SallyintNorth]

I would never, ever keep horned and unhorned tups together, and especially so if the horned one is a Hebridean.  Horned tups with full headgear can and do kill other tups, even if the other tup wasn't being aggressive and wasn't wanting to fight.  It doesn't happen often, perhaps, but it has happened to me - and as I looked at the body of my lovely Blue-faced Leicester boy, you can be sure that I wished I had listened to the farmer who told me to never, ever keep horned and unhorned tups together... 

[SallyintNorth]

The most salient factor in mixing breeds, in my view, is whether the management is the same or different.  We've talked about this recently, on vegpatch's thread.  The bit about different breeds / management starts here

[SallyintNorth]

On tupping ewe lambs you have received good advice already : it's not for a novice sheepkeeper.

I would add that, as a very experienced sheepkeeper and lamber, I would never, ever use a tup that's a larger breed than the ewe's own breed for a first time (whether the ewe be a lamb - ie., will lamb at one year old, or a shearling - ie., will lamb at two years old), and recommend using either the same breed or a smaller one, and if the same, make sure it's one with narrow shoulders.  Others will add, get one with a small head, but my own experience is that it's not usually the head that causes the problems (although it can be relevant in horned breeds where the male lambs have developed horn buds at birth.)

In common with a lot of farmers, especially breeders of very meaty types such as Texel and Beltex, we keep a Shetland tup for our first timers, no matter what breed they are.  Shetland lambs come out running, are very weatherproof, know where the milk bar is and how to get on it, and are very persistent.  So even an inexperienced ewe usually ends up feeding her lambs without assistance, and you rarely get birthing problems with a Shetland tup. 

We also keep a larger stock tup, so our Shetland tup is a naturally polled one.  (They do arise, but are not common.)

[Buttermilk]

For my first year with zwartbles I bought both shearlings and lambs and put both to the tup.  The tup was my problem as he was an only and had to stay with the girls.

I have found over the years that having 3 boys in a field is far better than having two, it seems to reduce the fighting so I now have the teaser who is 6yrs, a shearling and a lamb.

I am another who would never mix horned and polled rams.

[SallyintNorth]

You need secure fields to keep tups in if they haven't got anything to do, and actually even if they have something to do. Come tupping time if you can't contain them they will be a nuisance to you and your neighbours, which could be costly.

And a tup who has only a very small number of ewes will be almost constantly looking to find others.  He needs 30-50 to keep him busy

[twizzel]

You need secure fields to keep tups in if they haven't got anything to do, and actually even if they have something to do. Come tupping time if you can't contain them they will be a nuisance to you and your neighbours, which could be costly.

And a tup who has only a very small number of ewes will be almost constantly looking to find others.  He needs 30-50 to keep him busy

To be fair my boys both get between 5 and 15 each and come the end of tupping after a couple of weeks in the shed they go out for the winter and don’t fight at all, they switch off and don’t tend to wonder, but then I don’t give them a chance as they’re always behind electric fence.

[Gardners Cottage]

Hi all,

Many Thanks for the advices!
No polled/horned
No mate as ewe lambs

Will postpone all and perhaps try to aim for an in lamb couple of ewes at the end of the season for lamb experience and perphas a tup for this group. Will get an extra one for the original two ewe lambs and hold for any ewe lambs until the season after!

Cheers!