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Author Topic: Dangerous Animal act andy hybrid pigs  (Read 10790 times)

harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Dangerous Animal act andy hybrid pigs
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2020, 08:56:56 pm »
I would start by sorting the path obstruction. You have three options 1. remove all fencing, 2. use either side as a separate paddock thereby removing the two gates across the path 3. apply for permission to install said gates. Personally, I would go with option 2. Then I would see how far they will pursue the dangerous animal listing.

SmallWelshBarn

  • Joined Sep 2014
Re: Dangerous Animal act andy hybrid pigs
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2020, 09:11:28 pm »
I would start by sorting the path obstruction. You have three options 1. remove all fencing, 2. use either side as a separate paddock thereby removing the two gates across the path 3. apply for permission to install said gates. Personally, I would go with option 2. Then I would see how far they will pursue the dangerous animal listing.
I have already applied for option 3 but have been told they will refuse it.
Not an option to remove the fencing as it keeps animals and people apart.
I can remove the gates then they will try and class the animals as a possible obstruction/ nuisance. I’m not sure how  they would prosecute that.
If they refuse the gates I’ll Cha Lange the decision of it means an appeal or a judicial review. Ultimately the council should not be able to obstruct a landowner from installing gates when needed.

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Dangerous Animal act andy hybrid pigs
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2020, 09:28:47 pm »
I think if I was you I would just admit defeat with the council. They have the funds and time to make a big issue if they want to.

Blimey, things are very different in Wales to Cornwall!  :o  Councils are totally cash-strapped here.

I would keep the pigs in the lower field during the nights and let them across the dyke every morning and evening.

A few people have suggested something along these lines and it sounds like a perfect compromise.  You have your safe crossing for the pigs and can use both sides of the ground, the gates are only closed across Offa's Dyke when the pigs are crossing so that this important National Trail remains unobstructed for all but a few moments occasionally, walkers never come unexpectedly upon a pig on the trail.   Unless we are missing something? 

Someone also suggested you talk to your insurer, and this is excellent advice which I recommend you follow.  Farmers in Cumbria in the World Heritage Site of the corridor along Hadrian's Wall (a trail of similar standing to Offa's Dyke, I would say) had found it necessary to select the livestock grazing the trial with great care, and / or to put a fence between the walkers and the livestock, as insurers were beginning to insist after too many claims.  Up there, you needed permissions from all sorts of bodies, including archaeologists, before you could so much as knock a post in, because of the Roman antiquities.  In fact I can't think that rootling animals such as pigs would have been allowed on the Roman sites - so at least you don't have that to contend with!  :D
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 11:40:11 pm by SallyintNorth »
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Dangerous Animal act andy hybrid pigs
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2020, 10:08:33 pm »
I would start by sorting the path obstruction. You have three options 1. remove all fencing, 2. use either side as a separate paddock thereby removing the two gates across the path 3. apply for permission to install said gates. Personally, I would go with option 2. Then I would see how far they will pursue the dangerous animal listing.
I have already applied for option 3 but have been told they will refuse it.
Not an option to remove the fencing as it keeps animals and people apart.
I can remove the gates then they will try and class the animals as a possible obstruction/ nuisance. I’m not sure how  they would prosecute that.
If they refuse the gates I’ll Cha Lange the decision of it means an appeal or a judicial review. Ultimately the council should not be able to obstruct a landowner from installing gates when needed.



You can of course appeal a decision but the council is not being obstructive, placing gates on a public right of way is unlawful.

Black Sheep

  • Joined Sep 2015
  • Briercliffe
    • Monk Hall Farm
Re: Dangerous Animal act andy hybrid pigs
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2020, 07:14:05 am »
The council can’t designate an animals as dangerous. The animal is designated the status from its origins.
The issue I have is I am not willing to allow my animals to be classed as in the dangerous animal list.

Sorry but it isn't up to you to allow, or not, your animals to be classified. It comes down to whether they fall under the legislation wether you like it or not.

The DWA is here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1976/38

In the list of designated species for England and Wales (there are two lists, the earlier one is for Scotland) it states:

Quote
Family Suidae:

Included: All species except any domestic form of the species Sus scrofa.

Which means: Old-world pigs (including the wild boar and the wart hog).

Exceptions: The domestic pig is excepted.

Hybrids

Included: Any hybrid of a kind of animal specified (other than by way of exception) in the foregoing provisions of this column where at least one parent is of a kind so specified, and any animal of which at least one parent is such a hybrid.

Which means: Any mammalian hybrids with at least one parent of a specified kind, and any animal of which at least one parent is such a hybrid.

So I think you have a problem. The way this reads animals will fall under the DWA if they are a first generation hybrid OR if at least one parent is a first generation hybrid. You are going to find it difficult to show that your animals were not fathered by a first generation hybrid animal.

The local authority is the body empowered by the Act too - the power would seem to be with them. It most certainly isn't down to whether you "are willing" or not. Again, look at the language you are using. This will not help you get anywhere in the situation where, put bluntly, you are in the wrong.

Quote
I have gates to protect the public from animal interaction which I think is sensible. It’s easy for me to remove the gates then animals and people will interact more whether it’s pigs sheep goats horses what ever is using the land.

I agree that keeping the animals and people apart may well be sensible. However the way you have done it contravenes the rules about rights of way. That isn't the council's fault, it is yours for not establishing what you can and can't do in advance. As several others have suggested, change the gates so that people have unobstructed access and you close them to move animals across, rather than the way they are now. The footpath obstruction goes away and you are instantly in better standing with the council.

This, I'm afraid, is a situation where you are going to need to eat some humble pie otherwise I predict it will escalate. If that occurs you are going to become more upset and angry, face legal issues, significant costs and potentially see your pigs removed from you. The council have the powers to remove and dispose of, without compensation (and at your cost) any such animals not being kept under license.

SmallWelshBarn

  • Joined Sep 2014
Re: Dangerous Animal act andy hybrid pigs
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2020, 07:24:03 pm »
The council can’t designate an animals as dangerous. The animal is designated the status from its origins.
The issue I have is I am not willing to allow my animals to be classed as in the dangerous animal list.

Sorry but it isn't up to you to allow, or not, your animals to be classified. It comes down to whether they fall under the legislation wether you like it or not.

The DWA is here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1976/38

In the list of designated species for England and Wales (there are two lists, the earlier one is for Scotland) it states:

Quote
Family Suidae:

Included: All species except any domestic form of the species Sus scrofa.

Which means: Old-world pigs (including the wild boar and the wart hog).

Exceptions: The domestic pig is excepted.

Hybrids

Included: Any hybrid of a kind of animal specified (other than by way of exception) in the foregoing provisions of this column where at least one parent is of a kind so specified, and any animal of which at least one parent is such a hybrid.

Which means: Any mammalian hybrids with at least one parent of a specified kind, and any animal of which at least one parent is such a hybrid.

So I think you have a problem. The way this reads animals will fall under the DWA if they are a first generation hybrid OR if at least one parent is a first generation hybrid. You are going to find it difficult to show that your animals were not fathered by a first generation hybrid animal.

The local authority is the body empowered by the Act too - the power would seem to be with them. It most certainly isn't down to whether you "are willing" or not. Again, look at the language you are using. This will not help you get anywhere in the situation where, put bluntly, you are in the wrong.

Quote
I have gates to protect the public from animal interaction which I think is sensible. It’s easy for me to remove the gates then animals and people will interact more whether it’s pigs sheep goats horses what ever is using the land.

I agree that keeping the animals and people apart may well be sensible. However the way you have done it contravenes the rules about rights of way. That isn't the council's fault, it is yours for not establishing what you can and can't do in advance. As several others have suggested, change the gates so that people have unobstructed access and you close them to move animals across, rather than the way they are now. The footpath obstruction goes away and you are instantly in better standing with the council.

This, I'm afraid, is a situation where you are going to need to eat some humble pie otherwise I predict it will escalate. If that occurs you are going to become more upset and angry, face legal issues, significant costs and potentially see your pigs removed from you. The council have the powers to remove and dispose of, without compensation (and at your cost) any such animals not being kept under license.

I have spoken with the senior ecologist for The Deer Initiative / http://www.wild-boar.org.uk

His opinion differs from yours n the fact that.
Firstly it needs to be proven that my pigs are first generation hybrids I can not conform that they are I was not present when the sown was served. How do I know they were served by a wild boar ?
Secondly the boar in the FoD are all ready Hybrid animals they are more akin to Iron age pigs i.e a Tamworth cross. In order for my animals to be classed as first generation Hybrid that fact must be proven you can not just say we think they are so they are. My pigs look nothing like wild boar the snout length is the same as the sow as are the colouration etc.
Again it comes down to proof and that must be done by the Local council to prove my animals are first generation hybrid its not down to me to prove they are not. I very much doubt a DNA test would show they are first generation any thing !
I nor the council can place or remove an animal from dangerous animal list without proof of what that animal is.
I am not an ecologist how ever the ecologist I have spoken to concur with what I have written.

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: Dangerous Animal act andy hybrid pigs
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2020, 08:10:02 pm »
Yes I have public liability insurance.



Just a quick thought - does that insurance cover animals which are classified as dangerous? I'd have thought that would have been one of the exclusions on a normal policy? (I know you're disputing that they're 1st generation crosses, but without a DNA test, this can't easily be established one way or the other).


I have to say, if an unknown pig nibbled me, I'd crap myself, and I'm sure most townies walking the Offa's Dyke path would too. With that in mind, I'm not in the least surprised the council are concerned!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 08:12:33 pm by Womble »
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Dangerous Animal act andy hybrid pigs
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2020, 09:54:40 pm »

There is a lot of stuff out there on the web about pig genetics and DNA so you may well be able to find out whether it is possible through DNA testing to prove wild boar parentage.


Arguments aside over whether the forest pigs are iron age or wild boar if your sow wasn't served by a boar from that source then how did she get served?  :love:

Black Sheep

  • Joined Sep 2015
  • Briercliffe
    • Monk Hall Farm
Re: Dangerous Animal act andy hybrid pigs
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2020, 06:36:46 am »
Firstly it needs to be proven that my pigs are first generation hybrids I can not conform that they are I was not present when the sown was served. How do I know they were served by a wild boar ?
Secondly the boar in the FoD are all ready Hybrid animals they are more akin to Iron age pigs i.e a Tamworth cross. In order for my animals to be classed as first generation Hybrid that fact must be proven you can not just say we think they are so they are. My pigs look nothing like wild boar the snout length is the same as the sow as are the colouration etc.
Again it comes down to proof and that must be done by the Local council to prove my animals are first generation hybrid its not down to me to prove they are not. I very much doubt a DNA test would show they are first generation any thing !
I nor the council can place or remove an animal from dangerous animal list without proof of what that animal is.
I am not an ecologist how ever the ecologist I have spoken to concur with what I have written.

As I mentioned, your animals could fall under the DWA if they OR THEIR PARENT (capitals for emphasis, not shouting) was a first generation hybrid. That is what the legislation appears to say.

You appear to accept that the FoD boar are potentially such hybrids. Harmony makes the valid point that if one of them isn't the father, who is? Just because they have their mum's snout and colour doesn't tell you what their father was or wasn't.

You are right that it comes down to the way in which questions like this are resolved and the DWA doesn't contain (that I could see) definitive wording of how the status of unknown hybrids must be established. You seem to believe that the council "need proof". Where is your evidence for that? Just because you want it to be the case doesn't mean that it is.

The Act does give local authorities all the powers it confers. So unless there is written guidance or long established practice for local authorities to follow it is arguable that it would be up to them to make a determination. That may or may not require any "evidence" such as DNA tests. It might be sufficient for them to use a "on the balance of probabilities" type approach, as civil law cases do.

If you analyse your situation:

  • An unknown boar served your pigs
  • There are wild boar / hybrids, of which could be first generation hybrids in the woods adjacent to your pigs and on the other side of the fence that was breached when the boar entered
  • There are no other local pigs that could be the culprit (I presume as you haven't mentioned any)

It would seem entirely reasonable for the council to determine, on the balance of probabilities, that one of the wild animals was the father, and if the opinion they get from people that know that herd is that a decent proportion of the males are first generation hybrids, then it would also seem entirely reasonable for them to determine that your animals fall under the Act.

Now of course you could challenge that legally, although there may already be some case law that sets a precedent for the process to follow or outcome. But doing so, as has already been stated by several others, will get very, very expensive very quickly.

Your best approach is to try and de-escalate the situation. The pigs only became an issue after they bit the footpath officer who was only there because of the work you had done. Try and resolve the original issue, build some bridges with them and you may be able to talk this down.

You seem to be holding on to the belief that you are in the right and your pigs cannot fall under the DWA. If you really want to try and fix the problems you are facing then you have to take a broader view and understand that your belief isn't shared by those that hold the legal powers here.

harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Dangerous Animal act andy hybrid pigs
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2020, 09:43:29 am »
Firstly it needs to be proven that my pigs are first generation hybrids I can not conform that they are I was not present when the sown was served. How do I know they were served by a wild boar ?
Secondly the boar in the FoD are all ready Hybrid animals they are more akin to Iron age pigs i.e a Tamworth cross. In order for my animals to be classed as first generation Hybrid that fact must be proven you can not just say we think they are so they are. My pigs look nothing like wild boar the snout length is the same as the sow as are the colouration etc.
Again it comes down to proof and that must be done by the Local council to prove my animals are first generation hybrid its not down to me to prove they are not. I very much doubt a DNA test would show they are first generation any thing !
I nor the council can place or remove an animal from dangerous animal list without proof of what that animal is.
I am not an ecologist how ever the ecologist I have spoken to concur with what I have written.

As I mentioned, your animals could fall under the DWA if they OR THEIR PARENT (capitals for emphasis, not shouting) was a first generation hybrid. That is what the legislation appears to say.

You appear to accept that the FoD boar are potentially such hybrids. Harmony makes the valid point that if one of them isn't the father, who is? Just because they have their mum's snout and colour doesn't tell you what their father was or wasn't.

You are right that it comes down to the way in which questions like this are resolved and the DWA doesn't contain (that I could see) definitive wording of how the status of unknown hybrids must be established. You seem to believe that the council "need proof". Where is your evidence for that? Just because you want it to be the case doesn't mean that it is.

The Act does give local authorities all the powers it confers. So unless there is written guidance or long established practice for local authorities to follow it is arguable that it would be up to them to make a determination. That may or may not require any "evidence" such as DNA tests. It might be sufficient for them to use a "on the balance of probabilities" type approach, as civil law cases do.

If you analyse your situation:

  • An unknown boar served your pigs
  • There are wild boar / hybrids, of which could be first generation hybrids in the woods adjacent to your pigs and on the other side of the fence that was breached when the boar entered
  • There are no other local pigs that could be the culprit (I presume as you haven't mentioned any)
It would seem entirely reasonable for the council to determine, on the balance of probabilities, that one of the wild animals was the father, and if the opinion they get from people that know that herd is that a decent proportion of the males are first generation hybrids, then it would also seem entirely reasonable for them to determine that your animals fall under the Act.

Now of course you could challenge that legally, although there may already be some case law that sets a precedent for the process to follow or outcome. But doing so, as has already been stated by several others, will get very, very expensive very quickly.

Your best approach is to try and de-escalate the situation. The pigs only became an issue after they bit the footpath officer who was only there because of the work you had done. Try and resolve the original issue, build some bridges with them and you may be able to talk this down.

You seem to be holding on to the belief that you are in the right and your pigs cannot fall under the DWA. If you really want to try and fix the problems you are facing then you have to take a broader view and understand that your belief isn't shared by those that hold the legal powers here.



I don't think the footpath officer was bitten as such but was obviously concerned about their safety. Who gave them the idea of them being a wild boar cross? They will be able to check all pig owners in a locality and see who has a boar, that could have visited and DNA test them. That will get pretty messy as either there was an escape or they visited without a licence.


Putting the dangerous animal issue to one side the pigs could still be deemed a nuisance, such as dogs that bite, stallions on bridleways so getting the gates sorted to protect the landowner would seem to me to be a priority.

SmallWelshBarn

  • Joined Sep 2014
Re: Dangerous Animal act andy hybrid pigs
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2020, 01:48:27 pm »
I will repeat yet again. It is not my opinion that the council have to prove the pigs are first generation hybrids it is the professional view of two ecologists one of which works for the  The Deer Initiative / http://www.wild-boar.org.uk
They deal with all things boar related.
The council have told me if the pigs are second generation wild boar hybrid their would be no issue.
So if indeed a wild boar served one of my sow’s that would need to be 100% wild boar not a hybrid.
The ecologist who deals with the FoD does not believe the boar are pure breed boar. Ergo my pigs can not be first generation hybrids.
Dangerous dogs have to be assess by a profession to determine if they are a specific breed. The owner has the right to challenge in court and such finding.
The same applies in this matter.
The pigs never bit any one perhaps my choose of nibble would be exaggerating the term. Sniffing around some one is normal animal behaviour.


arobwk

  • Joined Nov 2015
  • Kernow: where 2nd-home owners rule !
Re: Dangerous Animal act andy hybrid pigs
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2020, 05:21:05 pm »
I don't know much about the legalities of keeping hybrid boar/domestic pig offspring, BUT [member=99988]SmallWelshBarn[/member] I've been following this thread:  I would suggest you back-off and keep as low a profile as possible for your pigs' sake. 

If you haven't already done so, I would strongly suggest you alter your gating arrangements asap so that the right-of-way is free:  gates (which I would suggest you put locks on) either side of right-of-way track will enable you to move the pigs between the split pasture areas easily enough.
I'm not sure why you are still arguing over whether your pigs are 1st gen' wild boar hybrids or not (they are probably not pure wild boar crosses, but ......):  just comply with right of way requirements and hope that everyone else involved have other more pressing things to think about.
!!?
However, if you do have "wild boar" in your area, how are you going to protect against further matings?  Your pink piggy hybrids might suggest a non-pure wild boar cross, but further wild crosses might produce wild boar look alikes requiring DNA testing in order to save them from the butcher (if you don't want to send them all to the butcher).
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 07:16:14 pm by arobwk »

Herbs,Hens and Spaniels

  • Joined Dec 2017
  • Warwickshire
Re: Dangerous Animal act andy hybrid pigs
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2020, 10:48:19 pm »
SmallWelshBarn,
You have my full sympathy! And you're right; people like that are pen-pushers and haven't got the brains of a dead rat! How on earth they can dream up and enforce these ridiculous rules of theirs boggles the mind  :dunce: We had trouble when we fenced our footpath off; two styles each end of the field and the footpath running along the back hedge so it was all perfectly legal and reasonable. Explained that we wanted to do it because of teenagers from the local village coming and running around the field 'playing with' (chasing) young calves and their mothers around, cutting open straw and hay bales and pushing them off the ricks then setting fire to them. :rant:
Council wasn't bothered about the kids but wanted to come and measure how far we were putting the fence from the ditch and insisted we re-seeded and rolled the path to QUOTE ' make it nice and smooth for people to walk on'. They very frankly got told to F off on the last point. The woman also told us that if anyone injured themselves on the styles they put in we were liable ???
I get that they want the footpaths to be certain width but honestly, when the woman got down on her hands and knees with a tape measure I could have pushed her head first in the ditch  :innocent:
Equally though the comments on here are right. Just because it is, doesn't mean it should be, but you're up against the wall. Unfortunately, they're the ones with the power and it's probably better for you in the long run to put on an easygoing face to them and have a good old rant and swear to us on here!


harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Dangerous Animal act andy hybrid pigs
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2020, 01:15:07 pm »
SmallWelshBarn,
You have my full sympathy! And you're right; people like that are pen-pushers and haven't got the brains of a dead rat! How on earth they can dream up and enforce these ridiculous rules of theirs boggles the mind  :dunce: 



That is a very nasty comment. Rights of way law was not dreamt up by the people who enforce it.


There is nothing to stop you putting up the fence, stiles, gates if you follow the proper process and if you don't, why is it the fault of the person who comes to check?

Herbs,Hens and Spaniels

  • Joined Dec 2017
  • Warwickshire
Re: Dangerous Animal act andy hybrid pigs
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2020, 11:17:37 am »

SmallWelshBarn, I'm sorry to use your post for this but, without the intention of starting any arguments- this is a forum!
People have different experiences, get mad about different things and have strong opinions about them. It's okay to need to have a rant or share with someone your own frustration and have a rant back! Everybody has different opinions, and often opposing,  but that should be respected. Obviously nobody wants to offend anyone but equally if you choose to be part of a forum like this you have to expect that someone will have a view about something that is very different to yours. As long as your words are not being directed against a particular member it is okay to express different opinions, no matter how strongly you feel about them!

 

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