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Author Topic: Help with bringing sheep in  (Read 6147 times)

Badger Nadgers

  • Joined Mar 2013
  • Derbyshire/North Staffs
Re: Help with bringing sheep in
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2019, 07:51:19 pm »
Zermex 2%  an injection under the skin of the neck of 6ml for your badger ewes and 9ml for the ram will kill and protect for 60days  scab ( mites can only survive for 17 days off sheep in post /trees etc )

How heavy are the sheep?  Zermex 2% is 1ml per 20kg so 6ml would be 120kg and 9ml would be 160kg.

(Zermex 1% is 0.4ml per 20kg, but requires 2 injections 10 days apart and has issues with Footvax)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 08:01:42 pm by Badger Nadgers »

shep53

  • Joined Jan 2011
  • Dumfries & Galloway
Re: Help with bringing sheep in
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2019, 08:59:27 pm »
Sorry you are correct I spent a lot of time trying to find the usage rate and the only one I found said 1ml per 10kg , but iv'e now found a European site with a data sheet  , never used it myself only used Dectomax

Nelson International

  • Joined Aug 2017
Re: Help with bringing sheep in
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2019, 06:38:55 pm »
Quote
I feel so stupid about the whole business. I don’t think this smallholding thing is working out for me.

Just to echo the others - don't be disheartened: I definitely get this feeling. Just hopefully less often as time passes.

My 10 year old is my sheepdog, and trying to pen up our rams results in him storming off down the hill more often than it does getting the rams into the pen.


tommytink

  • Joined Aug 2018
Re: Help with bringing sheep in
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2019, 11:02:50 pm »
Thank you all for the input and encouragement. Especially the sheep psychology which I am applying from now onwards.

We tried Wednesday, set up the hurdles. Learnt from previous experience to either set another hurdle in an opposing direction or tie very tightly! No luck. Fields were water logging. Tried a bit of bucket work and got a few come over. Think they were hungry.

Thursday tried again. Got the bucket ones penned successfully (led into end of funnel area and pulled loose stock fence around we’d set up. Husband said didn’t think we’d get the rest but I said we should try and it worked. They came in two more batches, and we moved some off in between, but going on the theory that they’d want to be with the others seemed to work. We didn’t chase. Just walked at a distance and calmly blocked the direction we didn’t want them to go. I think having some penned as “bait” really helped. Then we had the fun of getting them in the quad trailer and moving them a few at a time but that’s a different story!

The worst thing was realising the extent of the damage this scab has done (we’re convinced it is scab, could see no crawlies at all). One in particular has lost wool down to her skin and has a small lesion which we sprayed with AB spray. We’ve kept her and another and put them in a small paddock here as I want to keep an eye on her. 

It breaks my heart that I have failed these girls. Two weeks ago she was not like this. It was a 2ml dose of Zermex 2%, and I watched the guy do it properly. He wasn’t rushing it and they were all marked off as done. It just hasn’t worked, or if it has only for some. When I checked them I genuinely thought they were itching less. The ram didn’t seem to be rubbing at all (although in the end he was almost always separate from the ewes, at opposite ends of the fields) and I sincerely thought the girls weren’t so bad. Whether the wet weather dampened the symptoms, I don’t know.

It seems general consensus here is that injectables and pour-ons are useless and dipping is the only way to cure it. It’s not going to be until after Christmas and is kind of weather dependent, although the guy asked if we had somewhere to house them if it was raining, which we do. Anyway, I’m worried about them in the meantime.  And to top it one of the Radnors has started pulling a bit of wool. Of course as sure as I was that they didn’t share fence lines I discounted the hay feeder that we wheeled from the Badger field to the Radnor field... that our visitor loved to run against. Just so naive... :(

I am reticent now about bucket training and spending time with them. The two we have here and the others. They all came today when I rattled and whistled. Some go for the cake and some don’t. But they all followed from the same direction. Just need to put much more into building our relationship. We’ve been non-stop busy trying to get things straight in this new place, the days don’t last two minutes, and they always seemed so content.

Thank you for all the comments, advice, and understanding. I am sure some people may read this and are kind enough not to say what they think. No one is going to punish me more than myself, believe me. If I’d only took action a week earlier... A steep learning curve indeed.

Me

  • Joined Feb 2014
  • Wild West
Re: Help with bringing sheep in
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2019, 10:06:55 am »
So is that a 40kg dose? Is that enough? It does take time to stop itching post-kill as the allergens are still present on/in the skin. Dip is quicker resolution of symptoms due to washing effect and immediate kill

shep53

  • Joined Jan 2011
  • Dumfries & Galloway
Re: Help with bringing sheep in
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2019, 12:42:31 pm »
Farmers are often bad at giving a sufficient  amount either when dosing or injecting , they think they are saving money and then when the product does not work they blame the product . Getting the vet to come out or take the worst affected sheep to the vet and getting a simple skin scrape  and wool sample so they can be looked at under a microscope  should tell you if its lice or scab often they can have both . I have always found injectable's  and pour-on 's work well if you apply correctly and at a sufficient amount based on the biggest heaviest sheep ( many years ago I was told to apply crovect at the tick rate not the lice rate to kill lice and it always worked .  Since you think your Radnors are infected and you cannot dip until after Christmas , then personally I would get a sample taken and then treat with what ever your vet recommends  ( injectables are wormers and pour on keep off and kill insects so would not be wasted ) I would also retreat the Badgers with  a larger amount or a different product after discussion with my vet . It gets easier as time goes on and can be a very steep learning curve for some , come lambing time it will all be worth it

Anvia

  • Joined Jun 2017
Re: Help with bringing sheep in
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2019, 11:46:32 am »
Re handling your badger face sheep - we have been bucket training our welsh mountain sheep ever since we got them. It can be done, but we have found the key is consistency. We feed a minuscule amount in a trough in a pen made from hurdles in their field. We move the pen and the trough regularly so they aren’t associating being penned with a location, but we use the same pen & trough & bucket consistently - it’s “theirs”. We tend to feed them around the same time of day irrespective of which field they are in.

Typically - We call them and noisily shake feed in a bucket - they tend to pretend to not hear, so the person feeding them ignores them back, the feed is then put in the trough as noisily as possible and the person walks off far enough away that the sheep will approach the trough  -  Sally’s post on sheep psychology was brilliant! So taking great care to appear completely disinterested and not make eye contact with the sheep or do anything startling, that person just busies themself nearby-  after a few minutes most of the sheep will wander into the pen, some might eat, some won’t, some might hang just outside - that is the daily goal for us - & it only takes a few minutes. Having said this on the odd day none of them come & a few nuts get wasted.
Once that is regularly established, then mix it up a little, more than one person goes, or the person feeding quickly turns back & shuts the pen whilst they are eating, or shuts the pen & goes in, or shuts the pen and goes in and adds more food or moves the trough. Unless we need to we don’t try to touch the sheep They just happen to be in the pen whilst we are doing something to the trough or feed or pen. We talk to them, only happy sounds ! - having a marital breakdown when handling sheep may be occasionally inevitable, but it must be conducted in happy voices. Sheep are brilliant at detecting threats from our verbal and non verbal behaviours.

It does work, it’s will take a few weeks - longer if you have been chasing them to handle them as you are sending a mixed message - but it takes only a few minutes each day (given that you check your sheep daily anyway - this just becomes the method that you use to do it) & it will mean that when you need to you should be able to pen them. It was invaluable to us just last week when all our flighty welsh mountains went lame overnight - obviously on a day when I was on my own & I didn’t fancy my chances.... I was so proud of them when they all went in to the pen with no hesitation & didnt care when I shut them in  - I was amazed I was able to do their feet on my own with very little fuss. We only handle them when we have to, these are animals with finely tuned prey instincts it is enough to simply get as many as can we move willingly into the pen on a daily basis.

We also never ever allow them to be chased, flapped or yelled at, or worked with quads or dogs, we try not to get their prey instincts triggered unnecessarily, if the neighbour needs to round up his escapee sheep with his quad or dogs we move ours away into another field away from the invaders - that’s partly bio security too - you have to chose your handling system it’s either trust or fear. Trust takes a while to establish and a few minutes maintenance each day, fear involves the time & costs associated with owning quads & dogs, Neither system is wrong & both involve your time & money it’s just choosing the system that works for you.

Good luck - I’m sure you’ll get them sorted out - it’s obvious that you take their care seriously!

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: Help with bringing sheep in
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2019, 12:17:54 pm »

We talk to them, only happy sounds ! - having a marital breakdown when handling sheep may be occasionally inevitable, but it must be conducted in happy voices. Sheep are brilliant at detecting threats from our verbal and non verbal behaviours.

[member=171193]Anvia[/member]  this has me in hysterics  :roflanim:  Having a good old dingdong out in the field but with happy voices through gritted teeth. Brilliant!  Seriously though, the sheep will detect that too - they'll be thinking " oh they're at it again, quick lets eat before they change their minds'.  They can tell even the slightest change in tension in your body, something akin to recognising when the predator tenses its muscles to pounce. They even know when you've got the foot shears in your back pocket - they can't see them but they just know!  They also quickly detect which animal you have your eyes on to catch up, so that one will hide herself in the thickest part of the flock.  Looking sideways at them, or trying to be nonchalant doesn't fool them one little bit.  And it's always when you're in a hurry that your tension shows. 
You clearly know your sheep very well and have them beautifully handleable.  We have learnt that if you want one, then round up the whole flock, it's far easier than trying to get the one on its own.
For your neighbour coming to round up his strays - sort your fences so you have no strays on your land.  It doesn't matter who is responsible for the fence, him or you, you are the one whose flock is exposed to his flocks pests and diseases from his sheep, his boots and his quad tyres.  We let no-one onto our land with vehicles, and people all dip their feet in disinfectant at the gate.  We also have a double fence for our boundary, with a thick hedge in the middle for biosecurity ie to stop nose touching through a single fence.  Expensive to do, but it makes a very real difference.  The hedge also provides browse for the sheep as well as wildlife cover, food and nesting sites for birds.
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

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Anvia

  • Joined Jun 2017
Re: Help with bringing sheep in
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2019, 02:38:07 pm »
[member=4333]Fleecewife[/member]  - sheep are so far from stupid & I think us humans often forget how well our beasties know us & our behaviours - they know what the box of needles looks like & the sounds associated with that.... they study as all the time too! (My top tip there is to carry the equipment most likely to make them run for hills out to their pen in their feed bucket).

Luckily our neighbour is a fencing contractor..... and generally a great neighbour & friend - given numbers they run a few escapees are inevitable, particularly those coming down from common land.... some of them are completely wild & understandably so - that’s how they survive. These sheep are either digging under or jumping over. Without wishing to worry the OP.... I was evicting a group of our neighbours persistent offenders a week or so ago (all badger faces) & as I congratulated myself on finally getting them into our fully enclosed yard for him to collect  (6-8ft stone walls over 2 ft thick wide with a strand of barb on top) they just elegantly & effortlessly jumped out!
Well... that made me give my unsociable welsh mountains a few extra sheep nuts that day.... and decided (again!) that whilst badger faces are really very pretty I’ll admire other people’s...

 

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