The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: charlie-ia on August 09, 2018, 03:04:45 pm
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Hello everyone, first post... :wave:
Toying with the idea of two pet lawnmowers, but have very little space. What is the minimum for a couple of primitive small sheep?
Sorry if its been asked before
Thankyou
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There’s no set amount as it depends on breed an quality of grazing.
Ideally you meed to have more than one area so you can rotate.
We have 3 hebridian on ~1 acre and feed hay over winter (summer too this year due to drought).
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Hello Terry T
I was looking at Ouessants, but I might struggle to get them here in Ireland. Something friendly, small and tough, anyway.
I have about 1/4 of an acre that they could call their own that could be permanently fenced and a house for them, and the rest of an acre that they could graze on that would be difficult to fence except with moveable electric fence, eg the grass between veg plots, kiddies play area, orchard, various wide tracks etc. Plenty of good grass, but all in little bits.Would that work? Thankyou
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I’m sorry but that doesn’t sound suitable for any sheep to me.
Paging [member=81]kanisha[/member] as she actually has Ouessants so can comment about them specifically. They are very small, I know.
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Thankyou. Better I find out now, before I get too excited!
I may be able to get a bit of land off a neighbour, but again it would only be about 1/4 acre.
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You may find you would be better off with geese. The size of plot you are considering even for Ouessants will get overgrazed quickly. Turns to mud in winter and a dust bowl in summer. Unfortunately the often quoted minimum allowance for ouessants really only works when you have a larger area divided by a number of of sheep allowing you to rotate ground.
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That's a shame. Sheep are so much nicer than geese. How much land would I actually need? If I was asking the neighbour for a corner, maybe I could be bold?
I know I am very tired of lawnmowers!
Thanks for your replies everyone
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Goats browse rather than graze, so possibly need less actual grass? (I’m not a goat keeper, and I hope others who are will chip in if this is a bonkers idea, or cruel, or both.). Much more fun than geese - but probably not very effective lawnmowers, either :/. And do need shelter.
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Are you after something to keep grass down or animals? Goats would work on this area but probably won't keep grass down.... You will need to be prepared to buy in lots of feed and also cut branches and veg for them. .... And fence for giraffe and worms ....as someone so greatly put it! They must have a shed shelter available at all times.
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I think we need a bit more information regarding how big the patches of grass are. However one thing to consider if you are having Primitive sheep is that you cannot use moveable electric netting as most of them have horns, so would have to use strands of wire which are not as easy to move.
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It was definitely for the grass cutting skills I was looking at sheep.
Main permanently fenced area =30*45m
Orchard 6*21m (between the trees, so trees are safe from nibbling)
Behind barn 6*10m
"Lawn" :roflanim: 9*12m
Track 21*6m
Under trees 6*18m
I also work from home, outside, so they would be supervised.
Thankyou
I make that about 650 m2 in total.
There are more patches, but those are the main ones.
I don't mind feeding them either, as long as it wouldn't turn out crazy expensive.
I also believe female Ouessants are hornless? Though wethers make better pets, is that right?
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I work on 1000m2 per sheep with a minimum of 3000m2 to start with a couple. You won't mind feeding them until you can't set foot outside without hearing their dulcet tones baaing for food......
If the sheep cut all the grass when its growing in the summer they will be on mud in the winter when the grass isn't growing. As you won't be leaving any to rest year on year you will have less grazing.
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That's clearly a lot more land than I have.
Oh well.
One day maybe...
Thanks for the advice
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I've actually miscalculated (converting paces to meters) and I have over 1000m, but still not enough.
Oh I am disappointed
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Would charlie-ia be able to house the sheep in winter, thereby allowing the grass to recover somewhat? Some sheep don't mind being housed in winter, but I don't know about Ouessants.
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I would have to build a shelter anyway. Winter housing could be taken into account. I could probably squeeze another 500m by removing some flowerbeds too,
So maybe end up with 1500m approx
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It’s all well and good housing in winter- but have you the equipment to muck out the house, space for a muck heap. Storage for bedding and fodder. If you’re scraping a few hundred metres here and there it sounds like you don’t have enough land. Don’t forget you’ll need the sheep shearing every year and finding a shearer for 2 pet sheep is harder than finding one for a flock of 200. Personally I’d just buy a new lawnmower :-/
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What about buying 2 pet lambs in spring and sending them to freezer in late autumn?
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We have an acre in total, but its a funny shape, has a stream running through it, and a back road cutting through. Two rows of huge sycamores with no grass below. So its impossible to put a single large area in one place.
We have 3stone barns, and a large cobbled area so muckheap and tool store is no problem. Could even shear/wash fleece indoors. There is even a large concrete cattle pen that I could build a winter house in, if the sheep would like hardstanding for winter?
I was under the impression that I could Roo Ouessants? Or learn to shear?
I'm not sure I'd want to send lambs to slaughter. Pets would be nice.
Thankyou everyone
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I think you sound quite organised and have some good facilities, therefore I think you should give it a try and be prepared to sell the sheep if it doesn't work out. Many of us can relate to the overwhelming desire to keep livestock, and if you don't try you won't know. You have been given lots of good advice so are aware of some of the pitfalls. The only other thing is that you should consider having 3 sheep rather than 2 in case one dies and you are left with one lonely sheep. :thumbsup: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :thumbsup:
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Thanks everyone for your replies.
One more question, Twizzel what equipment do you need to muck out sheep? Is there more to it than a brush, shovel and a bucket of disinfectant?
I've never kept sheep and I'm quite prepared to find out things might not be simple...
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A fork would be useful :farmer: also I agree you should be able to shear them yourself after a bit of practice, especially if you are not too worried about how the fleece comes off. The main reason is for the welfare of the sheep. :thumbsup:
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Nothing major if you keep it mucked out regularly... it gets more difficult to muck out with a fork if you deep litter and let the muck build up.
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Is there any reason why 2 sheep cannot live by and large in a stable and come out to graze as and when?They can eat ad-lib hay and a hand-full of nuts and be bedded on straw. They might get mucky tails when first turned out on fresh grass but this can be cleaned up. Tame sheep will be easy enough to move from here to there on a halter. Mucking out a sheep house is exactly the same as mucking out a stable - fork and wheelbarrow (or gloves and a bucket). They would need sheering but no special equipment is needed for 2 pets - my best sheering has been with the kitchen scissors :innocent:
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For that size of area I would suggest pigs. Start with a couple of weaners and see how you get on.
So much more fun than sheep! :)
Don't get me wrong, I *love* my sheep, but you could just be trying to shoe-horn something into a small space and it not work very well. Pigs on the other hand need much less space, and you will interact with them much more (as you will have to feed them daily), and they can be right characters. It might be the best way to fulfil your desire for keeping livestock. And there is of course the meat as the end result (assuming you so wish). Hmmm...sausages.... :pig: :pig: :pig:
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What about fencing requirements for pigs? Sorry if this is off topic
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What about fencing requirements for pigs? Sorry if this is off topic
Two strands of electric tape is what I use (i.e. very moveable). And my whole property boundary would be stock fenced as a back up safety net.
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Its the grass cutting ability that was drawing me to sheep really. Thanks for the suggestion though. Do turkeys cut grass like geese do? (Sorry, I know this is the sheep dept!)
I may be able to get some extra grazing from a friend with a holiday cottage nearby. I'd like to see Dartmoor Liz's stabling idea debated...
Thanks everyone for replies so far, and not making me feel silly.
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I wouldn’t feel comfortable buying pets knowing that for the majority of the time they would be housed inside, sheep are grazing animals and much prefer to be outside. My sheep are housed at certain times of the year for lambing and the odd night in before shearing or vaccinating, and whilst they are mostly contented inside they don’t thrive like they do outside.
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Do turkeys cut grass like geese do?
They'll eat it a bit, but they're not habitual grazers like geese are.
I can't help thinking that any animal kept purely as a lawnmower is going to end up being a lot more hassle than er, a lawnmower!
Have you thought of buying a breeding pair of rabbits? After a couple of years you should have more than enough to keep your grass in check!! ;D
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If you want an easy and not too expensive life with a nice lawn that you can camp on, pick-nick on and play football on then get a lawnmower.
If you want an interesting life and can afford the vet, feed, bedding and disposal with a lawn covered with droppings, mud, nettles, tools etc and you are around every day to rescue sheep from whatever scrape they get themselves into (bramble is carnivorous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuzLXxbGc4c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuzLXxbGc4c)) then join us sheep keepers. I agree with a previous post that 3 is probably a minimum as they are very much flock animals and if one dies a lonely sheep is unlikely to be content.
You are marginal on grazing but many cattle live in all winter and you'll find the balance of mud/grazing for your land. I don't think many would say that hard standing was suitable. They need a bed so they are not standing on wet or muck; if straw is scarce then shavings or some sort of absorbent material under foot. I know slats are sometimes used where the muck and wet fall through but they are not soft to lie on so many frown on their use. I know nothing of ouessants and if I was in your position I would find your nearest/most friendly sheep farmer and take a handful of their bottle lambs in the spring then if you need advice or medicine they are on hand to help.
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That sounds quite sensible. Whatever I decide, I won't be rushing into things. Thanks everyone
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We like short grass for camping, picnics, and outdoor cooking. And all of these activities are much more enjoyable with sheep around.
We also have much more time for these activities since we got our sheep, as they are far less work than the mowing was and are no more costly than filling and maintaining a mower.
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I've had two stinky peterol mowers die in 2years. And the grass grows when I'm busiest :'(
Hoped I might have better luck with sheep
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I've had two stinky peterol mowers die in 2years. And the grass grows when I'm busiest :'(
Hoped I might have better luck with sheep
Errrmmm... they’ll be pretty much the same. Lol. Stinky, die frequently and often unexpectedly. Need things when you are at your busiest. (And this bit is worse. If the grass is growing and you can’t cut it, you have a harder job when you can get to it. If the sheep need something you’ll have to do it, however busy you are, or they may well die.)
But they’re very cute :hugsheep: And you can’t eat lawnmowers ;)
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Sheep are awesome. Go for it!. 1000m2 should be enough for a few primitives for most of the year if you manage the grass well (I would suggest getting a couple of *self-shedding* Castlemilk Moorits which are docile, only need rooing and are beautiful- or probably even a bit better a couple of Soays which are smaller but a bit more 'jumpy').
A few things I would do to give you the best chance of success to add to the other advice-
1) before getting them allow everything to get really overgrown (primitives will take down really tall and overgrown areas).
2) sort out gaps etc in fences
3) Strike some fast-growing willows in a sheep proof area- maybe a new hedge? (so you can cut as browse which will help supplement your feed in summer and winter).
4) Buy a good hay feeder and get a supply of really top quality hay to feed ad-lib. Get the 4ft version of this https://iae.co.uk/product-agriculture/sheep-hayrack-on-wheels/ (https://iae.co.uk/product-agriculture/sheep-hayrack-on-wheels/)
5) Buy lots of hurdles so you have full control of where the sheep graze. You should graze an area really hard and supplement with ad-lib hay, mineral lick and energy lick http://www.molevalleyfarmers.com/mvf/store/products/mvf-mole-lyx-sheep-salt-elite-20kg-pack-of-2;jsessionid=1B9A42079D174593209D1A470872D7D1. (http://www.molevalleyfarmers.com/mvf/store/products/mvf-mole-lyx-sheep-salt-elite-20kg-pack-of-2;jsessionid=1B9A42079D174593209D1A470872D7D1.) Once that area is done then move them to a new area and move the hay rack and lick with them.
6) See if you can find 'respite care' for them if your land really won't take them over the winter (my friend does similar to what you are proposing and I have occasionally housed his sheep over the worst of the winter months).
7) Keep a daily eye on them to see that they are thriving- and if unsure get a trusted farmer or vet to advise you (or get advice off here).
During summer this will prob work OK. As you hit winter it may be that you need to confine the sheep to a hard, dry area (and with shelter with a covering of straw) until your grass starts growing again. Don't ever allow them to get muddy feet. In a small area you would also be advised to remove droppings. Feeding will never be a problem- just feed them ad-lib hay from your feeder (and a handful of beet shreds- which are a by-product of the UK sugar beet industry so environmentally much better than soya products, some clippings from your willow or even offer a few fodder beets).
Best of luck!
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Sheep are awesome. Go for it!. 1000m2 should be enough for a few primitives for most of the year if you manage the grass well (I would suggest getting a couple of *self-shedding* Castlemilk Moorits which are docile, only need rooing and are beautiful- or probably even a bit better a couple of Soays which are smaller but a bit more 'jumpy').
A few things I would do to give you the best chance of success to add to the other advice-
1) before getting them allow everything to get really overgrown (primitives will take down really tall and overgrown areas).
2) sort out gaps etc in fences
3) Strike some fast-growing willows in a sheep proof area- maybe a new hedge? (so you can cut as browse which will help supplement your feed in summer and winter).
4) Buy a good hay feeder and get a supply of really top quality hay to feed ad-lib. Get the 4ft version of this https://iae.co.uk/product-agriculture/sheep-hayrack-on-wheels/ (https://iae.co.uk/product-agriculture/sheep-hayrack-on-wheels/)
5) Buy lots of hurdles so you have full control of where the sheep graze. You should graze an area really hard and supplement with ad-lib hay, mineral lick and energy lick http://www.molevalleyfarmers.com/mvf/store/products/mvf-mole-lyx-sheep-salt-elite-20kg-pack-of-2;jsessionid=1B9A42079D174593209D1A470872D7D1. (http://www.molevalleyfarmers.com/mvf/store/products/mvf-mole-lyx-sheep-salt-elite-20kg-pack-of-2;jsessionid=1B9A42079D174593209D1A470872D7D1.) Once that area is done then move them to a new area and move the hay rack and lick with them.
6) See if you can find 'respite care' for them if your land really won't take them over the winter (my friend does similar to what you are proposing and I have occasionally housed his sheep over the worst of the winter months).
7) Keep a daily eye on them to see that they are thriving- and if unsure get a trusted farmer or vet to advise you (or get advice off here).
During summer this will prob work OK. As you hit winter it may be that you need to confine the sheep to a hard, dry area (and with shelter with a covering of straw) until your grass starts growing again. Don't ever allow them to get muddy feet. In a small area you would also be advised to remove droppings. Feeding will never be a problem- just feed them ad-lib hay from your feeder (and a handful of beet shreds- which are a by-product of the UK sugar beet industry so environmentally much better than soya products, some clippings from your willow or even offer a few fodder beets).
Best of luck!
An excellent positive post which I hope will make you realise a mower is easier!!!
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We had 1500m2 of good grass for our two, which they ate completely bare by November. Then the money we had previously spent on fuel for the lawnmower was spent on hay. The time we had saved on cutting was spent feeding and watering them.
You really need 2000m2 I think, although it all depends on the breed and maybe you could halve that. Then you perhaps need another 2000m2 for hay, rotating them every year, so two enclosures. Then dry storage for the hay and equipment to cut and move it.
Guess your approach depends on your concern for the environment- we're going with the sheep.
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Can't believe how helpful people are here, thankyou all
:hug:
Fieldfare, thanks for typing all that!
1 mower broke last year, so all is very overgrown
Doesn't long grass cause footscald?
2 I would have to build sheep fence anyway.
3 one reason I'm short of room is because I have planted willow. Much willow, for baskets and windbreak.
*** Is too much willow harmful?***
6 I have a neighbour with a holiday cottage, I think they would let me graze there. ( not me, the sheep)
8? I have a large,walled concrete yard that could be used to build winter housing, and underused barn for hay etc storage
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Doesn't long grass cause footscald?
Everything causes scald. Long grass, short grass, dry grass, wet grass, spiky grass, soft grass - you name it, whatever ground you’ve got, it causes scald. They get scald, geddit? ::)
*** Is too much willow harmful?***
Errrrm.... weeeelllll, could be. :thinking: Like many things, it can be deleterious if they eat too much of it, so the key is to be sure they have plenty of other stuff to eat so don’t overdo it on the willow.
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Hi Charlie-ia, just a bit more info. I realise that I keep my 2 rams in an unimproved paddock of approx. 1000m2 almost all year round (they leave it in Nov/Dec). The amount of grass I still have despite the dry summer is still really good (about 4"). See photos. The amount of grass that you will get depends on many factors of course (sunlight, type of grass, soil, weather etc. etc.). Anyway, if you manage yours well (strip-grazing it using temporary hurdles would work well and supplementing when necessary) then I'm sure you have enough land (and if you have 2 ewes they will eat less than strapping rams!). Defo. go and see a well-run city farm and speak to the livestock manager- they will be doing what you want to do.
In terms of scald, I have never seen it in Castlemilk Moorits (a primitive breed) and I have been strip-grazing 27 of my ewes and lambs into some 2-year uncut pasture for the past months (overgrown with grass and tons of thistles) with not a sign of scald. It's actually really lovely to see them chomping through it- the most relaxing lawnmowing you'll ever do! My really strong advice would be to go for Castlemilks or Soays- as closer to 'wild-type' they don't have the health concerns of many of the woolly 'improved' breeds and if kept well then you will rarely need a vet.
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Thanks again everyone for your welcome, and your helpful advice.
After careful consideration (and a lot of learning).....
our Shetland pony arrives tomorrow!
Best wishes and happy Christmas to you all
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Can you keep one shetland pony on it's own?
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We are surrounded by the neighbours horses, they can kiss through the fence, but they can't kick him. And I have plenty of back up if I need to know anything.
I would have been out on my own with sheep I think.