The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: farmvet on December 29, 2017, 10:04:56 pm
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3 times in the last few weeks I've been called to semicomatosed moribund novice smallholders sheep. They have collapsed after a sleetly night and show typical signs of hypothermia/hypoglycaemia. On each occasion the affected animal is just a bag of skin and bone with the remaining animals in similar condition on small bare paddocks. Extensive lab work confirms there is no real underlying disease process and simple starvation is the main cause.
So PLEASE - learn to condition score your sheep. You need to handle them to see what's hidden under the fleece.
- Don't believe Dr Google that feeding sheep before the last month of pregnancy will give you big lambs. If your grass isn't at least 4cm (2 fingers) you really do need to offer hay... and if they eat it offer more....
- There really isn't any breed that should be a walking skeleton.. no honestly there isn't
- If your unsure you can always ask your vet/ a "proper" farmer to come and have a look, assess your sheep and paddocks, maybe do some worm egg counts. Even if your sheep aren't at crisis point money spent now will reap dividends in avoiding deaths and having them in optimal condition for lambing.
I'm sure I'm ranting at the converted here but please keep an eye on your less informed neighbours!
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Thanks farmvet, a timely warning, I turned mine onto some lower sheltered land, giving a bit of top up hay and ae few nuts, they look fat but I'll double check in the morning.
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<< Don't believe Dr Google that feeding sheep before the last month of pregnancy will give you big lambs. If your grass isn't at least 4cm (2 fingers) you really do need to offer hay... and if they eat it offer more....>>
I so agree with this point - every farm and smallholding is different, so what works for one can be totally wrong for another.
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Will also add that the best laid plans can change because of the weather. Sheep round here are losing condition fast due to all the rain we’ve had :raining:
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Agree with Twizzel 4cm of grass when it has done nothing but rain :raining: for months has barely any nutritional value .... add hay! (also they can be fussy about hay too ... make sure it is fresh nice smelling hay)
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I totally understand it must be difficult for inexperienced sheep keepers to know what is correct ,when the standard sheep book says " no concentrates needed until 6 wks before lambing " this is why I keep stressing all sheep are individuals and you MUST learn to condition score and for smallholders with a few sheep handled every day checking should be easy , As many of you know I am large commercial 1000+ ewes and yes I need to watch expenditure BUT if in lamb ewes go lean early / mid pregnancy it can cost a lot to try and save the LIFE of the ewe & lambs . OK 2015 I started feeding silage 16th jan 2016 started 12th jan this year 22nd dec plus all ewes 200gms nuts WHY because it was freezing then snow then rain and the grass was dying and the sheep looking miserable , now that they are all eating plenty of silage I will stop the nuts to all but the sheep condition score 2.5 or less and these will get more nuts 0.5kg . Point being there are no hard and fast rules ,if you live in the south east and have plenty of grass and sheep that hold condition eg texel then nuts 4-6wks before lambing will work BUT if you are on the north west with no grass the sheep need you to provide every thing , hay /silage ad lib and an energy bucket or nut if neccasary
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Thank you for the reminder [member=36412]farmvet[/member] It must be horribly frustrating and upsetting for you to see basic husbandry issues like this. I guess we all have to learn and I am seeing some of this with horses near me too. When you spend all week in a nice warm office people can be slow to realise that a few days relentless wind and rain can become a few weeks and the nutrition need ramps ups. Not to mention the benefits of a shelter. Anyway you have spurred me on to get out of my seat and take some more hay and a lick bucket out....
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I agree. I think a steady plane of nutrition is essential and when the weather's bad or grazing's poor that means hay, haylage or silage and a mineral and/or energy bucket, irrespective of condition score. I have a scanner due in tomorrow and there's an old ewe with a skimpy fleece that will stay behind with a pal if she scans in-lamb. She's in good condition with sound teeth but she can have ad lib hay as well as grazing and the option to go into a shed if she wants.
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Can I give the beginners point of view please? When we first got sheep, I went from panicking that they were too thin one minute, to too fat the next! We certainly feed the Zs far more than we used to, having gotten over the fear of being too kind to them and having big lambs etc. Basically they're a high input / high output kind of breed, and need to be treated like that.
This also reinforces Womble's first rule of smallholding, which is "It's all about the context". We're raising a lowland breed at 220m altitude in the middle of Scotland. This means that if somebody raising Borerays in Norfolk followed our plan, it would most likely end in disaster, and vice-versa.
One thing I did wrongly to begin with was to only press down on top of the spine. Actually, you have to use quite a bit of pressure, and must feel along the side of the spine at the 'short ribs' as well (and under the short ribs if you can).
(http://www.lifetimewool.com.au/images/scoretable.jpg)
For info and comment, our planned condition scores for the Zwartbles throughout the year are:
Sep 3
Oct 3
Nov 3.5 (Tupping early Nov)
Dec 3.5
Jan 3.5
Feb 3
Mar 3 to 2.5 (start feeding concentrates 6 weeks before lambing)
Apr 3 to 2.5 (lambing during April. Keep feeding concentrates until mind May to ensure good milk yield)
May 2.5
Jun 2.5
Jul 2.5 (lambs weaned at roughly 16 weeks old. Most Z flocks seem to creep feed, so that they can get the lambs away to the butcher straight off their mums. We haven't tried that yet, and consequently ours are finished on grass by mid October)
Aug 3
Currently our flock ewes are CS 3, having lost 0.5 point at least over the last couple of months. The gimmers are still nice and fat though. As a result, I'm going to split them up into two flocks, and will give the older ewes some concentrates as well as hay to hopefully prevent them from losing any more condition.
I'm still learning though, so I'd love to hear comments from more experienced keepers on this. In particular, I'm still quite vague as to exactly how much concentrate to feed in the run up to lambing and afterwards, so would like to have better figures in mind for this that we can then work up or down from according to conditions. Any thoughts folks?
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3 times in the last few weeks I've been called to semicomatosed moribund novice smallholders sheep. They have collapsed after a sleetly night and show typical signs of hypothermia/hypoglycaemia. On each occasion the affected animal is just a bag of skin and bone with the remaining animals in similar condition on small bare paddocks. Extensive lab work confirms there is no real underlying disease process and simple starvation is the main cause.
So PLEASE - learn to condition score your sheep. You need to handle them to see what's hidden under the fleece.
- Don't believe Dr Google that feeding sheep before the last month of pregnancy will give you big lambs. If your grass isn't at least 4cm (2 fingers) you really do need to offer hay... and if they eat it offer more....
- There really isn't any breed that should be a walking skeleton.. no honestly there isn't
- If your unsure you can always ask your vet/ a "proper" farmer to come and have a look, assess your sheep and paddocks, maybe do some worm egg counts. Even if your sheep aren't at crisis point money spent now will reap dividends in avoiding deaths and having them in optimal condition for lambing.
I'm sure I'm ranting at the converted here but please keep an eye on your less informed neighbours!
I did originally post a long reply to this, but deleted it. Now I have had time to contemplate the issues more, a few points have risen to the top. I agree with most points made in the discussion, but:
The target for your post is smallholders, and clearly smallholders come in all shapes and sizes, acreages and levels of skill. However, and here we reopen old arguments, please don't forget that what you refer to as 'real' farmers can be just as challenged for land, skill, grass quality, funds, as a smallholder, but as a vet you may not see the evidence, if they never call you in. I live next door to such a 'real' now ex farmer, so I know this can occur and be covered up for quite a while.
On the occasions you have attended these horrible situations, I hope you take the opportunity to educate the sheep's owners about being over stocked, underfeeding and the dangers, and how to correct this. Not in a patronising or blaming way, as I can't imagine there are many folk so blind they can't see they have a problem, but being supportive and understanding. The fact they have called you shows they know they need help, so you are there to give it. It will be so hard to swallow your fury, but you are in an ideal position to give fact based advice.
Condition scoring - yes, no sheep should ever be a bag of bones, but it is the case that certain breeds, especially Northern Shorttails, store their fat within their bodies less than along the back, so a slightly lower condition score as measured along the spine and tail head is correct for these breeds. A condition score of 3.5 for my own breed is a bit fat. Yes, we should all know how to condition score, but we should also learn how to interpret it, as one size does not fit all.
<<< semicomatosed moribund novice smallholders >>>
Sorry, I couldn't resist highlighting this - I know it's not what you said but it's quite funny, in spite of the serious discussion :coat:
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It would be a shame to lose sight of the OP point and get stuck on the difference between "smallholders" and "proper farmers" as they clearly said "novice smallholder" and indeed a "proper farmer" could be a more experienced smallholder.
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Very short on grass up here now, but they have ad-lib hay and hi-energy Crystalyx and seem to be holding condition okay on that. No hard feed until 6 weeks before lambing, other than the occasional scoop as a treat if I want to bring them all over, but if we get a prolonged spell of bad weather, they'll get 18% ewe lamber pellets to support them
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semicomatosed moribund novice smallholders
Oi!! I resemble that remark!!
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semicomatosed moribund novice smallholders
Oi!! I resemble that remark!!
You and lots of others by the time the New Year arrives!
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Womble have you looked at AHDB better returns programme "ewe nutrition "
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Womble have you looked at AHDB better returns programme "ewe nutrition "
Surely for himself Womble needs ram nutriton?
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Womble have you looked at AHDB better returns programme "ewe nutrition "
Surely for himself Womble needs ram nutriton?
or wether ? :sofa:
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or wether ? :sofa:
LOL, I'm pleased to report that I have now made a full recovery! ;D
Womble have you looked at AHDB better returns programme "ewe nutrition "
I tried it, but I just found I couldn't digest that much grass.
Seriously though, Do you mean this one (http://beefandlamb.ahdb.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/BRP-Improving-ewe-nutrition-manual-12-050416.pdf), Shep? No, I haven't seen that version before. I'll have a read in a bit - thanks! :thumbsup:
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I would agree that smallholders shouldn't be demonised - there are plenty of sh*t farmers out there too alas. :( If I followed what my neighbour farmer does all my sheep would probably be dead.
I have hay out from October (or Sept if wet) to May - I let the sheep tell me what they need.
The Eblex docs are brill, I've read 'em all :). Animal Health should make every new livestock owner aware of that resource when they sign up for a flock number or CPH.
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Thank you Foobar - you put the point so much more succinctly than I managed ;D
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Will also add that the best laid plans can change because of the weather. Sheep round here are losing condition fast due to all the rain we’ve had :raining:
Same here, but this year it's been losing condition at the end of a wet summer rather than a couple of years ago when they lost condition fast during the wet and windy November. The other thing that's knocked them back here has been several 180 degree changes of wind direction (sometimes more, or and back again) within a day, perhaps more evident here as I'm on a hill running NE-SW, and they get themselves settled on the more sheltered side which gradually becomes the more exposed. It just needs them to think about sitting it out rather than checking out the others side and they'll burn energy. When it happens overnight and is combined with wintery weather it's lethal - they're all settled at night but by the morning they're getting plastered. The ewes tend to cope okay as they have more reserves, but the hoggets going throught their first winter can drop really quick (within a day) and it's a lot easier to take condition off than put it on. First sign of anything and it's throw food at them or it's too late for them to recover from.
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Yup, I've seen four dead sheep in our neighbour's fields within the past week. They just seem to be losing the will to live, and I can't blame them!
I figure ours are more likely to hang on in there in the hope of getting something nice for breakfast, so I'm going to grit my teeth and feed them, at least as long as I still think they're over-thin!
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Yup, I've seen four dead sheep in our neighbour's fields within the past week. They just seem to be losing the will to live, and I can't blame them!
So am I !!
Mud mud water and mud ... and when it isn't raining its foggy!
My ewes are going In the barn next week (eight weeks before lambing) if I can get them dry enough to house!
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Although this is an important post, I wonder if there are better ways to put across this information. You would have to hope that the "novice smallholders" in question aren't on this forum and seeing their case details posted on a public forum such as this, even if names aren't mentioned. Mentioning someone's case details and aiming the post at smallholders, is not needed to make this point.
I agree with what the fleecewife says in that vets are in a position of trust, and also it is unfair to label all smallholders as targets for this because as some have mentiuoned, this scenario happens on farms of all sizes and I bet you could go onto moorland rough grazing and find this exact same thing.
Are there many smallholders who ask "Dr Google" how to look after our sheep, and who really believe it's ok for our sheep to be a bag of bones? The tone of this message could be improved.
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You could argue that in putting the point insensitively more attention was drawn to the post and it was more effective
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I'll have a look at the Better Returns Programme booklet. I have to admit as novice I'm a bit bewildered by sheep nutrition. We have now learnt how to tell good hay from bad and give our sheep hard feed when it gets cold. They seem to be maintaining condition based on my ability to BCS (which I don't have the greatest faith in).
Can some sheep just be 'poor do-ers' though? We have a ram lamb from 2017 who has never done well. He's always been small, 2nd twin who 2 hours after birth still hadn't got up (had to tip mum and latch him in the end). He fed from her as a lamb but she had little interest in him. He was the first scouring bum we had. He eats and drinks fine and is feisty, but has never had a great score. I'm getting a FEC done to check but just wondered if some individuals are just 'thinner'. Our top ewe also seems to maintain a slightly lower (.5) BCS to the others.
Dans
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Within a breed there will be different "strains" or bloodlines that keep condition better. Much the same as people, some are like whippets and others like whipped cream. I think it's really important to feed correctly in the last six weeks of pregnancy and the first month or so of lactation, for feed is going into healthy, vigorous lambs or milk for said lambs.
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Within a breed there will be different "strains" or bloodlines that keep condition better. Much the same as people, some are like whippets and others like whipped cream. I think it's really important to feed correctly in the last six weeks of pregnancy and the first month or so of lactation, for feed is going into healthy, vigorous lambs or milk for said lambs.
Goodness, there is no hope for me. I am very white, and a bit flabby. I appear to be cream. I was hoping for more of the whippet look - long thin legs, pronounced waist line, slender hips....ah well.
This place is fabulous for information - many hours spent reading old topics, as well as ordering the various recommended books, have given me lots of help in setting up a small breeding flock, and keeping the elderly lawnmowers healthy for their last years. I do agree with the breed / type thing though - I have a few Zwartbles that look like dining tables regardless of what the grass is doing, and one little wether that gets the best of everything, and extras. and all the worming/teeth checks etc needed, and is still the lower end of the BS. He runs and plays, doesn't stop eating, and hasn't had any issues, but seems to be built like a racing snake.
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'Although this is an important post, I wonder if there are better ways to put across this information. You would have to hope that the "novice smallholders" in question aren't on this forum and seeing their case details posted on a public forum such as this, even if names aren't mentioned. Mentioning someone's case details and aiming the post at smallholders, is not needed to make this point.'
[/size]It's a shame people are nitpicking at OP, I haven't seen any names mentioned, and I just saw the post as a very GOOD timely reminder to keep checking condition. If anyone did recognise themselves (unlikely) hopefully it would make them look at their flock management urgently. The chart was very useful as well, while I have grass in the lower field, I am giving more hay following this post, thanks again for all the positive advice.
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Agree with [member=22672]penninehillbilly[/member] Feels like we are falling into the trap of over sensitivity that marrs much of the 'media'. The case as described wasn't detailed it was pretty generic and it is the very fact that it was generic that makes it a general point worth sharing.
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Thanks to everybody whose read this post!! And in particular to those who've tried to keep the thread on track and not get hung up on definitions of novice/smallholder/farmer.
I don't think it would have got 1170 views if I'd not put a few true salient clinical points in the discussion, and had just said to check your sheep. Insensitive? No. Thought provoking? Yes.
As far as how to condition score, breed variation etc I think figures are less important than just being savy. Are my sheep loosing/ gaining weight? Is this what I would expect re weather, stage of production cycle, feeding? If not, whats going wrong? What do I do next?
Thanks again everyone. I suggest we draw the thread to a close before it deteriorates any further.
Farmvet