The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Goats => Topic started by: New Riverside Farm on November 26, 2017, 04:44:15 pm
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Hello,
So I have 3 beauties; one straight guernsey, the other 2 3/4 guernsey 1/4 Togg.
They'll be coming up to their second year (born I believe maybe April/May of last year?). So as I'd like to milk them (or attempt to!) I need to think about breeding sometime in the new year as I believe their breeding times may be Feb/March?
So I like to be a bit prepared and I think I'll go with only one mating and leave two till next Autumn when I have a bit more experience under my belt.
So I'll need to make sure they aren't 'fat' - I'd guess that a vet would be able to assess this and so far in any vet visit, we've not heard that they are overweight but if we need to do a shot (which I believe is also needed for breeding) and worming we can still assess this? Any good ideas as to when a goat is heading to fat?
Any other good advice?
Also looking at what to breed with....obviously we're not going to be well-known breeders who can easily sell on the offspring with a sound reputation, so need to consider how to best sell the kids (and I'd not really want them going for meat so wouldn't sell them that way as I want to find homes with people who'd like a lovely goat and our girls are stunning and soooo friendly). But want to stay with a male who is smaller than her ideally. So with the x's thinking a straight guernsey might be good? Or as an odd mix (and because they are so cute and pocket sized) a pygmy?
I know - as with anything - there are people who say a breed has to be a breed, don't cross them. I get it but I'll probably not be your kind of people, if we're talking only for the sake of some form of dogma. If there are other good reasons such as it can cause real issues for the kids as they are malformed - then ok, that's different. I am open to hearing objections, but prefer if they had something I can relate to and understand as I'd like to breed my girls, all eventually, but I'd like to - within safety standards of mum and kids - be able to look at flexible options.
Many thanks for your expert experience and advice!
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Hi
If you want them kidding spring 2018 you need to be getting them to a male now, gestation is 5 months, so Nov/December would be good for an April /May kidding. Don't leave it longer or they may get too fat on spring grass.
I think they would have to be grossly fat to have problems breeding, main concern would be overfeeding in the first 3 months of pregnancy.
I think there is a GG male in Keighley. May be able to find out if you want.
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Really - I want to mate now? They're still quite young...will they be ok considering they were only born themselves around April/May last year? I thought I'd potentially mate them in the Spring. I understood somewhere that they had two heat seasons?
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Your goats were born in spring 2016? - so are now actually goatlings and not kids anymore.
Goats are seasonal breeders - they will come into season (as in ready to be mated) with the shortening days in autumn, cold weather normally helps too. With gestation - as has been said above - being 5 months you need to get organised if you want them mated this autumn. They will stop coming into season in early spring, and soon seasons are starting to get shorter, making it more difficult to get them mated if you do not have a billy on-site.
Also most breeders will take goats of around 18 months of age to the billy, commercial herds often mate kids late in their first autumn, but this requires a good eye for feeding, as the goat is still growing her own body as well as any kid(s) inside.
A goat is too fat if you cannot feel the vertebraes on her back (just in front of her hips) and you struggle to feel the ribs. Goatlings are indeed often quite fat, and I would take them off any concentrate (over a few days if they are indeed still on them) and only have hay, and grazing if they still go outside in winter. they will then need gradual increasing their concentrate feed again in the last 6 weeks before kidding to come up to milking rations.
Have you observed them when in season? If you haven't noticed and "in-season" behaviour you should get a billy rag (piece of cloth rubbed on a nice smelly boy), which if offered to sniff to a gat in season will give her characteristic tail wag, if not in season she will just try and eat it..
Are you vaccinating with Lambivac (and maybe also Ovipast)? This maybe the "shots" the vet is talking about.
Are your girls registered with the BBGS?
If you are planning to mate them to a billy not on your holding you need to enquire about CAE status requested (or not) by the stud owner.
Do you have a trailer to bring a goat in season to a billy? If you can - it may be easier to get a billy to come and reside with you for a few weeks, gets around the standstill issues and means he will detect when the girls are in season and get on with the job.
What goatbooks have you got? Kackenzie's "Goat husbandry" is really good, 5th edition is the latest.
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No, they were born Spring 2017. So I believed they were too young till they were going into their second year - so thought I was able to breed late into their first, birth into the second...if that makes sense?
So they are at this time, maybe 7 months. I'd hoped - and I thought I understood - they didn't have to have a full 2 years but that it could be late in their first year to mate.
I've not noticed any in season behaviour - they occasionally mount each other? But that is a bit of play of dominance and I suspected they were too young to be really in season right now.
I'll need to check the records about the shots. I am not sure and as I said, I wasn't exactly planning an imminent mating, but sort of 3-4 months pre-plan? At least as I understood it?
I don't believe my girls are registered anywhere. I bought them from a breeder and they are recorded but I don't think there were any other registries other than to say I transported them and they are registered to this location.
Sorry but what is CAE status (sorry if stupid question)?
I do have a couple of books - some recommended on here and by the breeder) and then I also check out on here and different readings of others enquiries.
I am not sure about bringing the boy here (don't have a boy identified yet for that matter - but would be interested to know if there was an attractive boy, as mentioned, in the Keighley area for my beautiful girls). I want to do them one at a time or leave some time in-between them. This will be new for me, so best if the first is on its own and I can give her as much attention and care. The second and third, I'd probably give some separation to as well but not as much time as the first. Also milking will be new too - so better to not overwhelm myself and then not do things right for the milk and especially for the goats!
I don't need that much milk anyway - it is going to be for personal use, not selling it. So better to give myself a little space anyway. and I believe people usually alternate goat matings for that reason?
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Ah, too young, when you said April/May last year I thought you meant spring 2016.
You will be looking at mating autumn 2018.
Gives you plenty of time to do more learning about them :- ).
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Ok, I thought they sounded like this year's kids. As said above - plenty of time. I can do a longer reply re your questions this evening, off to go milking just now and out all day.
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Ah, too young, when you said April/May last year I thought you meant spring 2016.
You will be looking at mating autumn 2018.
Gives you plenty of time to do more learning about them :- ).
So if I don't want to mate them all at the same time - I won't be ready (comfortable) to do 3 at time, for the first time, no matter how much I read up! What do I do then?
Obviously at autumn 2018, they'll be 18 months (ish). Ideally I'd only want 1 to go, for my 1st goat breeding. Many years ago I had a goat, and she had a kid, I was there for the birth - but this was all natural sort of thing. I am sure that most goats are quite capable anyway but seeing that I was quite young, she was a gift to me, and we let her do what was natural - it was all fine. Didn't know to do anything else. There wasn't prep work or anything but then she more than likely had a birth before she came to us, so this wasn't her first rodeo. but this would be different this time, with a first time birth, more invested in them, etc. So don't want to put a lot of new things at once. I'd like to watch this birth a bit, look for any issues, and also get used to milking without it being overly arduous, as many new routines can be until they become routine, and excessive in milk I don't know what to do with and kids that have to be sold, etc.
Anyway, I understand goats should be mated 1st time before they get too old. So if I only do 1 in Autumn 2018, then in theory...I may not do the other 2 till the following autumn? Which would put them at 30 months? Is that too old?
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I'll leave the "technical stuff" to Anke and the other goat keepers, who are excellent on here!
Milking three goats will give you a lot of milk and you seem only to want a bit for yourself. Also quite a bit of work every day milking. Not to mention getting the goats trained to be milked.
My goats have always kidded no problem but I think I have been lucky. This year we had twins to both girls and all males. I don't know how many people want pet goats out there.
Do you know someone locally who could take you under their wing and show you the ropes?
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You could get them all in kid and leave kids on and just take surplus off one or all of them once a day.
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I'll leave the "technical stuff" to Anke and the other goat keepers, who are excellent on here!
Milking three goats will give you a lot of milk and you seem only to want a bit for yourself. Also quite a bit of work every day milking. Not to mention getting the goats trained to be milked.
My goats have always kidded no problem but I think I have been lucky. This year we had twins to both girls and all males. I don't know how many people want pet goats out there.
Do you know someone locally who could take you under their wing and show you the ropes?
Not as of yet do i have any experienced keepers to learn from...but keeping an eye out!
I was also worried about keeping an eye on 3 girls going through their 1st pregnancy and me being new too. Seems like too many 'news' at one time.
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I've taken a goat to be mated for the first time aged 3 and she was fine. Alternating is a good idea as the milk yield goes down in the second year so you will have more from one and less from the other.
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I've taken a goat to be mated for the first time aged 3 and she was fine. Alternating is a good idea as the milk yield goes down in the second year so you will have more from one and less from the other.
I'll definitely be alternating! I don't need milk from 3 goats at one time! : )
So do you think I'll be ok if they're over 2 for the first mating? I just think for my first kidding, I should keep my wits about me by focusing on just one goat - see if she has any issues, keep an eye on her pretty exclusively. If all goes well, I can look to do 2 at a time for my second round.
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I have had trouble getting a goat left until 30 month old in kid. You will have to feed an in kid/milking goat differently to adults not doing anything, are you set up for this?
A compromise would be to kid down one goat by mating her on her first season of the year and a second by playing chicken and trying for her last season at the end of February, then do one the following autumn. You still have the different feed scenario though.
Having them all kid about the same time does make kid rearing easier.
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You beat me to it Buttermilk, though I was going to suggest catching one early, the next about a month later, and then the next, unless one seems small and could wait till next the year.
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They're all falling about the same size - though I expect the 2 x's will outgrow the straight guernsey a bit.
I can be set up to separate in-kids to the not in kids. We set up our barn to be common, but it is set up to allow for eventual 3 separate stalls. I know sounds strange but we built it, so put 3 doors for 3 stalls but at the moment, leave the barriers down in the stalls as there is no need to separate them. I wanted it designed this way so that if we had any in-kid on their own, they'd have their own space to sleep and eat.
The field wouldn't be though - but I didn't think that was a problem. It was more for concentrates and the ability to have her kids with her. I think I'd struggle a bit though to do 3 at one time, on many levels. The stalls whilst allowing for 3 would be less 'roomy' which can be fine but would prefer to not do 3 like that at one time. And I wouldn't really know what to do with all that milk and I am inexperienced with kidding, and would like to have a go at watching for any signs, and if there are any complications, I am too busy with one to maybe notice the other? It wouldn't be second nature to me as it would to many on here.
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If you're not confident (I I don't think I would have been in the beginning) to have three in kid at once, why not one this year and two next. You will still have too much milk but can make cheese and yoghurt. If you get a separator to take off the cream, it makes lovely ice cream as well.
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Going slightly against the grain here..
I find that if your lambing (or kidding) its as much work to check 30 ewes as checking one. Its not the checking that takes the time, its the frequency of it. Most of lambing/kidding is just waiting around. If you have 3 kidding you'll be three times more experienced at the end of it as before. You could leave the kids on 2 of the goats too.
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If you're not confident (I I don't think I would have been in the beginning) to have three in kid at once, why not one this year and two next. You will still have too much milk but can make cheese and yoghurt. If you get a separator to take off the cream, it makes lovely ice cream as well.
So by doing one now and two next year...sorry to be pedantic but what does that mean in actual dates and ages of the goats? At the moment they are only 7 months old - so cannot go for breeding at this time...I am pretty sure that is a definite. They are too young. But wasn't sure if there was some time in the Spring that might be possible? And then do the other 2 in the Autumn (2018)/Spring (2019)? Or are you saying 1 in Autumn 2018 and the other 2 in Autumn 2019? I'd want a good space between the first, and the other two - not one kidding and the others needing to be bred in the same space of time. Otherwise I am worrying about the kids on one, whilst worrying about the pregnancies of the others.
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Going slightly against the grain here..
I find that if your lambing (or kidding) its as much work to check 30 ewes as checking one. Its not the checking that takes the time, its the frequency of it. Most of lambing/kidding is just waiting around. If you have 3 kidding you'll be three times more experienced at the end of it as before. You could leave the kids on 2 of the goats too.
I am sure you are right that it will be the same amount of work. It isn't quite so much that, that is the worry - though it is still a considerable one! But mostly that I have no experience with kidding - so I need to know what to look out for, what to be concerned with - and if one is showing more obvious issues and I am focusing on it, I may miss more subtle signs with others? I want to give myself cushion room being so inexperienced, and not allow my inexperience combined with a rushed schedule to impair their health and well-being.
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You will still have too much milk but can make cheese and yoghurt. If you get a separator to take off the cream, it makes lovely ice cream as well.
I will definitely be going for loads of cheese, yoghurt and ice cream (have an ice cream maker so ready there)!!! Can't wait for that! : ) But I'll need to learn about separators!
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they don t necessary be kidding at the same time, goats tend to be seasonal breeders especially dairy goats, in season from about september to february. So if your goats are goatlings in 2018 then you could put one in kid the first season and another one depending on when it comes in season a bit later same with the third. When in kid you are supposed to give them their vaccination booster about a month to 6 weeks before you kid so antibodies are in the colostrum so if they are spread out you need 2 bottles. Also with different age kids they will get their vaccinations at different times. You can kid a older kid but in my experience not younger than 15 months. Also they do need extra care. You can go 1 each year but occaisonally older goats kidding for the first time increases chance of problems especially if too fat. Generally especially as you have guernseys and first kidders they will only have enough milk for their kids perhalps a little to spare especially as you start to wean the kids so unlikely to be awash with milk but it does depend on genetics. Also the advantage of goats over sheep you know which day they are mated so can predict the week around 152 days they will kid. I dont know if this helps but sometimes goats have their own plans! Milking twice a day and bottle rearing the kids is the easiest option for managing dairy goats as you can feed to know yeild and split the milk evenly between kids and have the spare to yourself. in my experience leaving kids on and trying to hand milk or hand milk later can be more difficult but depends on goats preferences.
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If you can book yourself on Tim Tyne's lambing course - kidding and lambing are very similar and it will give you lots of confidence! I agree doing three is as much work as doing one or two, and if you have a billy on-site (maybe you can borrow one for a few weeks), but not running with the girls (as in he lives next door) you will be able to mate them individually when they are in season and will know pretty accurately when they are due to kid. Maks life a lot easier. If your house is not right next door to your goathouse I would be thinking about a camera, either linked to mobile phone or computer, so you can check without disturbing them during the night. Most goats kid during the day time - often first thing in the morning or tea time.
Do you have a friendly goatkeeper nearby who may be able to contact you when a goat is due to kid and you can see the whole thing? Also lambing being very similar a sheep would be ok too.