The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: Rhea on October 31, 2017, 09:29:31 am
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For the last few months we've been seriously thinking about getting a dog, and after trying to find our perfect breed my husband found an absolutely beautiful collie cross on a rehoming site. We applied for her, passed the home visit, but were told she was 'a chaser' so not suitable for our cats + chickens. Whilst it's sad for it not to work out, we're now focused on getting a dog so after reading through the other similar queries on here I wondered if anyone would have any advice for us.
We're first time dog owners, and whilst we're reasonably active I'd like a dog that at times will be happy to keep us company as we do jobs around the smallholding rather than constantly needing attention. I run several times a week and would love to try canicross, so think a medium sized breed would be best.
We live away from main roads but close to a busy footpath, so whilst we will secure our garden (or a part of it) I want to be able to trust them not to chase anything that moves. The breeds we've looked at so far are border collies, labs, golden retrievers and viszlas but I don't think any are quite right for us. Any ideas?
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If you don't need a purebreed for any reason (to show/work/compete) then please look again at rescues. You can then choose a personality which fits with your needs, rather than choosing a pup for breed traits which may or may not materialise in the pup.
I have a lovely collie cross and have had, and known, some other lovely collie cosses.
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Definitely haven't ruled out a rescue, but having an idea of the right breed might stop us falling for the completely wrong dog in future :'(
So many we've looked at seem to have issues that as first time owners I don't think we're best to deal with.
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You seem to have a very logical approach. Don't discount a lurcher, whippet etc. Obviously they come with a desire to chase so early training is required with sheep, however they have a lot less drive than many collies, are easily kept happy with a fraction of the exercise and time (especially whippets) compared to many other breeds.
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What an exciting dilemma to have.
I would recommend a crossbreed, they are often much healthier and haven’t been beed for a single purpose so can fit in more easily.
Most dogs will want to harrass your other animals and so you will need to train them and keep them on a lead until you know you can trust them, with my first dog, a lab staffy cross this took a couple of weeks. My second dog, Jack Russel x Cocker Spaniel x Yorkshire Terriier, it was closer to 9 month.
In my experrience, rescue centres are notoriously reluctant to give up there dogs :trophy: ??? I tried several last time with hundreds of dogs on their books and they all assured me none were suitable, I’m sure most could have been trained, like the puppy I ended up getting through a private sale, a mutt, from a smallholding. If you can make the rescue thing work then great, but personally I would keep my options open. If going through a private sale, look for someone with similar background to yourselves - if you want a family pet, a working pedigree may not be ideal.
It’s definitely worth the effort, I wouldn’t be without one.
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I had discounted whippets due to the prey drive, but for the same reason I ruled out cocker spaniels and they are often recommended on here. I know training is important, but I thought I'd help myself by not starting with a challenge.
It was very nice when looking at rescue dogs to not worry about hip scores or baer tests.
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Does anyone have any experience with wirehaired viszlas? They seem to be considered more laid back than the smooths.
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It was very nice when looking at rescue dogs to not worry about hip scores or baer tests.
Unfortunately, rescues - whether crossbreeds or pure bred - can have heritable problems. Worst hips of any dog I’ve ever owned were a rescue GSD cross. He seemed fine at the time we rescued him, which we and the vets thought was between 18 months and 3 years old. He was very active and agile, but an X-ray later revealed dreadful hip sockets. It curtailed the type of exercise we could do with him.
And if you rescue a young collie or collie cross, then I’d definitely want to look into the various hereditary collie issues.
I will be shouted down from saying this, I always am, but it is my belief and my experience that collies and collie crosses are not in general the best pets, and are certainly not the dog for a novice. And if you’re wanting to do caniX (or agility or other high energy activity), a collie or colllie cross could well be the type that will get so hyper it bites you constantly. (This has been my experience re agility, and that of a very experienced friend - a trained vet nurse to boot - re caniX.)
I will get shouted down for this too, but all of the miniature (middle sized) F1 poodle crosses I’ve met have been super dogs, with loads of human orientation and desire to please, along with a dilution of whatever character trait the other parental breed has in excess. So cockerpoos and springerpoos might well suit. I met and really loved a Bedlington x Poodle and I imagine a whippet x poodle would be a tremendous dog.
Having lit two blue touch papers I will retire behind the sofa. :sofa:
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We have a Lakeland terrier who fits your bill; at the bottom end of medium sized dog, learnt quickly not to chase free ranging chickens, horses, cows, and sheep (though he's a slow learner on almost everything else); does not wander beyond the hamlet (but does bark at strangers who come onto the property), and not demanding of company. It's a very old breed with no particular health issues, though ours has a manageable skin condition. All in all he's very easy. And very cute.
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Narrow your options.
What size do you want
Do you want short or long haired
Do you want to start with a puppy or an older dog
You can not over exercise puppies and growing youngsters so taking them for long runs will be out of the equation for quite a while.
Gun dogs in my opinion are not suitable for novice owners unless they know they can be very firm from the word go. They need stimulation like any working dog. Prey drive is related to recall which you need for any type of dog. At the end of the day all dogs will and can hunt given the opportunity.
If they are going to spend long hours out in all sorts of weathers are they going to feel the cold? The working vizlas I know don't like the cold and wet.
Research shows that cross breeds actually aren't any less prone to health problems than pedigree breeds. If you are going for a pedigree know about the health issues particular breeds can suffer from. If you can rehome then ask lots of questions about the dogs background bearing in mind it could be that no-one knows anything about the dogs history.
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I had discounted whippets due to the prey drive,.
Bring them up with things you do not want chased and its fine. I have whippets and they are no danger to anything, sheep, poultry, ferrets, cats, children are fine. Bunny needs to watch his step mind
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Completely get about narrowing options, I'd prefer a medium-large dog, hair I don't mind and understand that for something like canicross they need to be 1 year +. I think that's why I like the idea of an older dog, but if I can't find a rescue that is good for a smallholding I'll wait and train a puppy.
I think the wirehaired viszla was bred to make them more suitable for colder weather, but I hate winter rain so we might be a nice combination ;)
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Personally I wouldn't have a rescue unless it was very young or I knew it's history and temperment for sure. With a cross breed or mongrel you have absolutely no idea what the end result will be like. At least with crossbreeds you can have some idea, but even then history can cause breed temperament to be different.
I was going to suggest a lab, it seems eminently suitable for what you describe till I saw your next post saying you didn't think it was the right breed for you - can I ask you why you came to that conclusion?
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Personally I wouldn't have a rescue unless it was very young or I knew it's history and temperment for sure. With a cross breed or mongrel you have absolutely no idea what the end result will be like. At least with crossbreeds you can have some idea, but even then history can cause breed temperament to be different.
I was going to suggest a lab, it seems eminently suitable for what you describe till I saw your next post saying you didn't think it was the right breed for you - can I ask you why you came to that conclusion?
I thought the same about retriever ..... Why not?
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Our German Wire Haired Pointer could stand far more wet and cold than a wire haired Vizla. Both are strong minded dogs.
I entirely agree with Me about prey drive. I have a Deerhound. I was warned that they take off over several fields for a mouse. She has never taken off after anything. I have always found sighthounds and lurchers and the like very loyal and also neat in the house. Mine never take all the sofa! My labs have always been very loyal too, easy to train and good companions. They soak up wet, mud and cold!
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Thanks all.
Definitely haven't ruled out labs or retrievers, they just don't seem to interest me although they tick every box activity/temperament wise. It's probably because most I've met have been allowed to get a little bit lazy & portly.
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Definitely haven't ruled out labs or retrievers, they just don't seem to interest me although they tick every box activity/temperament wise. It's probably because most I've met have been allowed to get a little bit lazy & portly.
They do nothing for me either.
After having two collies for 15 years, we decided that we wanted a less demanding dog now. So we have two Cardigan Welsh Corgis.
I had criteria - no genetic issues (just keep the weight off them for back and leg health, but that would apply to most breeds); pastroral breed (although ours have no herding instinct); rare breed (on the KC Vulnerable breeds list and we have rare breed cattle and sheep); no slaver; no yapping (they do bark but it's a big dog bark, not like our neighbours' Jackapoo and miniature poodles) and a low maintenance coat (they shed but they have a double layered coat that shrugs off dirt and water, admitedly on to the floor. No trips to a groomer required).
They aren't small or fragile. Bryn weights 18kg; he's the same size body as our collies, just with short legs. Gwenna, his wee sister, is going to be smaller though.
Both (and their mother) have fantastic temperaments. They are pretty self contained, don't chase livestock, are affectionate, love everyone. Can cuddle on the sofa without having legs everywhere.
Everyone loves their own breed but I'd put in a definite recommendation for the Cardi. In tehse days of "fashionable" breeds and "designer" crosses, there's a lot to be said for these old fashioned, working breeds.
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We live away from main roads but close to a busy footpath, so whilst we will secure our garden (or a part of it) I want to be able to trust them not to chase anything that moves. The breeds we've looked at so far are border collies, labs, golden retrievers and viszlas but I don't think any are quite right for us. Any ideas?
I have a working bred golden retriever and a smooth collie (cousin the the rough collie ie not a bare coated border collie).
The smooth collie is a very sweet, gentle dog who has very watered down collie tendancies ie he reacts to movement/a little more vocal than the golden/likes to chase (balls) etc. when he is in the house, apart from a few play bouts with the other, he is sound asleep. he's very affectionate and friendly. outside he's up for cani-X, we are about to start agility and he likes to play and walk etc. Not a big fan of the wet despite his superb waterproof coat. He's totally happy to do as much or as little as you want and imo, the perfect sized family dog (he's 23kg). Only downside is availability (as rare) and many are MDR-1 affected but thats easily managed these days.
the working bred golden is high, high energy-fabulous dog who I think really highly of but he's alot of work (and much fun!).
I run both of them caniX but not often in company-it did flip the golden's switch a bit so I mainly run with him loose now-if I were a stronger runner/more dedicated it would have been fine. the smooth is a perfect running partner. the smooth also loves the cats -is a little excited by my ducks and hens but is kept seperate. He's been taught to not bark/chase the horses, sheep etc.
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Thanks all.
Definitely haven't ruled out labs or retrievers, they just don't seem to interest me although they tick every box activity/temperament wise. It's probably because most I've met have been allowed to get a little bit lazy & portly.
ha! look at working bred dogs rather than bench bred. I always thought too that they were maybe a bit 'ordinary' for me. I've not yet met a fence/obstacle the golden cannot tackle-he's very smart at problem solving, extremely athletic and I cant keep weight on him. he's a delight-trainable, loyal, bold as brass with energy to burn.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155684911172866&l=8dadf47be5 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155684911172866&l=8dadf47be5)
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As me has already said a whippet is a very good all round dog I have 2 here I can walk through my hens and won't even look at them , both are good with cows sheep and horses, they will play with the ferrets but kill rats , both very laid back dogs who will sleep all day if you let them
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Thanks all.
Definitely haven't ruled out labs or retrievers, they just don't seem to interest me although they tick every box activity/temperament wise. It's probably because most I've met have been allowed to get a little bit lazy & portly.
ha! look at working bred dogs rather than bench bred. I always thought too that they were maybe a bit 'ordinary' for me. I've not yet met a fence/obstacle the golden cannot tackle-he's very smart at problem solving, extremely athletic and I cant keep weight on him. he's a delight-trainable, loyal, bold as brass with energy to burn.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155684911172866&l=8dadf47be5 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155684911172866&l=8dadf47be5)
That's why I suggested a more unusual type of retriever! :innocent: Anyone can recommend theirm own breed, read teh Kennel Club descriptions or go on breed websites fro more information once you have a short list. Then go and see some in the flesh before you buy
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Thanks all.
Definitely haven't ruled out labs or retrievers, they just don't seem to interest me although they tick every box activity/temperament wise. It's probably because most I've met have been allowed to get a little bit lazy & portly.
ha! look at working bred dogs rather than bench bred. I always thought too that they were maybe a bit 'ordinary' for me. I've not yet met a fence/obstacle the golden cannot tackle-he's very smart at problem solving, extremely athletic and I cant keep weight on him. he's a delight-trainable, loyal, bold as brass with energy to burn.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155684911172866&l=8dadf47be5 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155684911172866&l=8dadf47be5)
That's why I suggested a more unusual type of retriever! :innocent: Anyone can recommend theirm own breed, read teh Kennel Club descriptions or go on breed websites fro more information once you have a short list. Then go and see some in the flesh before you buy
sorry, didnt see you suggest a breed at all? as for suggesting their own breed, I was just offering personal experience, thats kind of what forums are about-have also kept collies and setters and wasn't recommending either of those. bit baffled as to your singling my post out tbh.
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Didn't mean to single yours out Flynn, just quoted the whole post including Rhea's
Still think a retriever would suit - probably a more unusual one to give them 'something different'
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Whatever dog you get it will all be down to training on how it behaves with you. I had German shepherds for years. Show and work and they brought me joy just being with them. When the last one passed away we decided to go for a Border Collie, he has eye problems which were not picked up on his first vetting. I also have a Jack Russell who thinks he is a German Shepherd as he trained with them when I was teaching. our 3rd dog is a Lab cross collie and she is mad on water. Loves the sea, muddy puddles , toys like our collie the pair would play all day. All 3 dogs are well train, when told to leave wither its a rabbit or a chicken even the cats they will do so on command. Rascal the collie has a thing for trying to round up the ponies so I have to keep a close eye on him as he will try to sneak away if he thinks I am not looking at him. My Jack Russell is the one who sticks by me. He is my protector, when I am out so are the dogs. I never thought I would be a small dog person but Jack taught me size is nothing if they have a big loving heart and so much fun to be around. Jake knew I had cancer months before I did. As i no longer go running anymore we do beach or forrest walks which they all love. The right dog will stand out when you see it I am sure.
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Working line labs are athletic and slim. They need a good education just like any other breed but are usually quick to learn and eager to please.
They can run all day but usually settle well in the house. Enjoy pottering round the smallholding and usually easy to train around chickens and other stock.
Some have a tendency to be highly strung, over sensitive and can be nervous around strangers.
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Another vote for a gundog breed here ;)
We have two working golden retrievers, they are superb with the children and all the animals. Will happily go all day or mooch around the smallholding. The dog is an excellent watchdog though very laid-back. The bitch can be hyper, but very clever, I bikejor with her. Likewise I know many working labs who are also brilliant dogs. Both of these breeds would make great first dogs.
Having said that, we have just been in the same situation as you, our male is getting on now and we wanted something a little different. The result? We now have a four month old male Deerhound. :excited: He is wonderful, however I wouldn't recommend them as a first dog. Harder to train than the retrievers, and they really do love the company of another dog. We have been lucky as our male (now 9), will play and run with him to his hearts content.
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We have a working line golden. Gorgeous girl with a fantastic temperament. Very lithe and athletic and will run and run (a ball and flinger ensures we don't have to do quite so much running although I am certainly getting my exercise too). She is our first dog and has been a joy to train (training us of course too). She is eight months old and looks like Monty Don's Nellie. She is small for a golden and won't grow as large as the show types living next door. She is laid back when we need her to be and will mooch around after us all day. She has learned that chickens are off limits to chase and will happily wander around with them (no incidents with them so far although we do supervise). We couldn't be happier with her. She came from a breeder of working lines on the Champ Dogs site and had good hip and eye scores etc.
Good luck with your quest!
:thumbsup:
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Some very sound points from Sally and doganjo. I don't think Collies, whether Border or Welsh, are suitable for first-time owners. They just want to work, all the time. We have a BC X Staffie X Corgi which is desperate to please but lethal to rats and squirrels, but that mixture might just as easily have brought out other traits from those breeds so nothing's certain.
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. She came from a breeder of working lines on the Champ Dogs site and had good hip and eye scores etc.
Just a word of warning - be very careful of any online dog breeder sites - champdogs included. Puppy farmers can register with no checks done.
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The breeder didn't actually advertise his puppies. I contacted a number of breeders and his name was well known. He is a field trial judge. I agree with Doganjo. You need to be very careful.
Helen
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Here in the Marches we have gundog and working dog shows at the Three Counties showground quite frequently throughout the year. Do you have anything similar in your area? Several times I've asked owners why they chose their particular breed and generally got a very friendly and honest answer, with undesirable traits also mentioned (slobbering, for instance).