The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Buildings & planning => Topic started by: SmallWelshBarn on September 29, 2017, 11:56:16 am
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I feel like banging my head against a wall. I have a section of my fence line that does not match with the past OS maps. A corner of my land is now showing as being owned and registered to the woodland trust. However my deeds show different and documents registered in the 1980s show the missing land is part of my parcel. Its never been sold.
The original purchase transaction documents from the forestry commission to the woodland trust are not held at the land registry only a submitted map any one can submit a bloody map !!!!!
The woodland trust refuse to show me the purchase transaction maps etc they say they bought the land I say well prove it to me then. You can buy land that does not belong to the seller.
I am sick of them trying to push me about. There is no such thing as land theft. So I will be fencing in the stolen land. They then can spend money on taking me to court as I have all the correct documentation. They won't be able to remove my fence as that would be classed as criminal damage !!!
The woodland trust should be honest instead of being dishonest.
Fuming.
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You certainly don't live a quiet life in your neck of the woods!
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You certainly don't live a quiet life in your neck of the woods!
I want to live a quiet life. However people keep getting in the way !!! Simple solution over a boundary dispute would be show me your purchase map period !
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Even pre 1066 endless boundary disputes, little and large, went through the Courts. Solicitors love 'em :innocent: (apologies to the solicitors on TAS)
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Why isn't it already fenced Swb?
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Even pre 1066 endless boundary disputes....
Actually WAY prior to 1066 :)
Do not move an ancient boundary stone which was put in place by your ancestors.
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Why isn't it already fenced Swb?
Yes it is fenced however the fence does not correspond with the OS maps thats the issue.
Left hand map registered with land registry for the sale of the yellow box from my land its a radio tower. My land is parcel number 5283 & 5783 this is the map registered with the LR in 1980. Non of my land has changed shape ever. Middle map shows the correct lines for parcel 5783 it also shows the correct position for the radio tower map one shows it against the boundary line which it is not. Map three on the right shows the woodland trust land now overlapping and creating a new line touching the radio tower. You can see the correct boundary line is still in place but now absorbed in to the trust land.
The bottom map is one I have had commissioned it shows by current bounders marked in pink the line in black is where my boundary should be in accordance to the OS maps and historic documents.
Frustrating to say the least.
(http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k562/NBeginningsFrance/Screen%20Shot%202017-09-15%20at%2021.57.13.jpg) (http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/NBeginningsFrance/media/Screen%20Shot%202017-09-15%20at%2021.57.13.jpg.html)
(http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k562/NBeginningsFrance/Site%20Survey%2033%20The%20Kymin%20Monmouth%20rev%20a.jpg) (http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/NBeginningsFrance/media/Site%20Survey%2033%20The%20Kymin%20Monmouth%20rev%20a.jpg.html)
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Things have changed a bit since the land registry went online.
It is infuriating that the people who register the land first in the current manner are claiming ground that they may not actually have title to.
Sometimes it feels as if you just cant win, with one neighbour doing a land grab by putting up a fence that doesn't truly reflect the boundary and another who registered ground that doesn't belong to them!
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Its known as land grab, this can be changed through the land rectification process. Your deeds will demonstrate that even though the fence is not in the correct place your boundary still stands. you might need to get it surveyed and it will need to go through a solicitor or land agent.
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Are OS maps the most reliable source? Are they regularly updated on line now? Certainly for public rights of way they are never 100% accurate at any given time.
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Its known as land grab, this can be changed through the land rectification process. Your deeds will demonstrate that even though the fence is not in the correct place your boundary still stands. you might need to get it surveyed and it will need to go through a solicitor or land agent.
I have had the land surveyed as per the map above. I have had an interesting conversation with the radio tower surveyor they own the little yellow square. He agrees the map is not correct and will try to help me get the issue resolved as their maps show I own the land. I also pointed out that the wood land trust have also stolen a corner of the tower plot !!!
Its going to be interesting to see what happens !
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Sounds annoying but worth considering another perspective. On your top left map the width of the green and red lines in the area in question is actually pretty much the same as the width of the area you are concerned "has been grabbed" in places - the scale of the plans isn't sufficient to provide absolute clarity with boundaries drawn on pen.
The top left and top middle plans also differ in their depiction of the boundary around the right hand corner of the radio tower plot. You say that the middle plan is correct but say the left hand one is the plan filed at the time of the sale. They can't both be right and surely the one filed at the time of the sale has precedence? Note that the Woodland Trust fence (pink in your plan) runs to the right hand corner of the radio tower plot - just as the top left plan shows should be the case.
The plan you have had commissioned is 1:1250 scale and says it is A4. Looking at it and scaling up the width from the on screen view I have the "grabbed" strip is therefore going to be about 15-25m wide or less in places. That could well be within the margin of accuracy of the surveying and drawing technology used by a) your map's surveyor, b) the original plan's surveyor, or c) the people that put the Woodland Trust fence in. Not sure you can therefore say who is right.
If the people that put the Woodland Trust fence in didn't have an existing boundary fence line to reference from then a small margin of error surely wouldn't be unexpected. Doesn't make it right but explains why it may be how it is.
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Oh no I just wrote a huge message that did not save.
Map one bounders lines are correct green land is my land. This map has an issue as the position of the tower is in actuality 5m set back from the boundary. So its build in the wrong place and does not reflect the map. ( Note the yellow radio tower is an oblong )
Map two the OS map line for Parcel 5787 is the correct shape and shows the correct actual position of the tower. You can see that the tower is now missing a corner not matching map one nor what the radio tower owns more land grab by the woodland trust.
Map three shows how the woodland trust have changed the shape of the boundary it now does not match map 1&2
Its not a small error its a fair chunk of land at its widest point its minimum 10meters see the surveyors map. Its in fact the width of a house. Os map shows my boundary originally to the right of a house woodland trust map now show it to the left of the same house.
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Sounds like the old bully boy tactics
Do you have any old photos going back over the years?
Few years ago i had a dispute with the largest super market chain went on for years
Thought it may end up in court, but i found some old photos that blew them out the water.
Last couple of properties i bought i had Ariel photos done on purchase, even easier now with drones
Land registry were us the margin of error was larger...lol
Possession is 9/10ths stay in control of land
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You are living in the wrong country SWB. Over here it is criminal law that prevents boundary movement, one of the many reasons we moved. You don't get boundary disputes in France, or if you do they are very quickly resolved.
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I used to live in France loved it just did not like running a buissness in France far too many punitive rules.
Aside from the land grab by the woodland trust it also seems the mast is built in the wrong location I.e about 6.3m meteres further back from the agreed registered OS deeds. Given the mast should be 20mx13.5m which I think equates to 270sqm of over all area they are occupying about 89sqm of land that does not belong too them oops. That could prove to be an expensive mistake. (Radio tower built in 1980)
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I don't know how much land you are smallholding SWB or what percentage this disputed area is .... but remember falling out with neighbours (whoever they are) can create real future problems, and neighbour disputes now have to be declared when selling a property .... weigh up the pros and cons of following this through.
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The more I think about it I am not the only one who have had land stolen by the woodland trust. Given the radio tower is build six meters further back on to my land which is going to be resolved. The tower actually should own 6m of land in front of its actual position as thats whats shown on their deeds. So the woodland trust apart from me have also taken over 90sqm of the radio tower land. Does that make sense ?
Frankly I don't give a toss about the woodland trust they are not actual a person or a neighbour they are a corporate entity.
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Frankly I don't give a toss about the woodland trust they are not actual a person or a neighbour they are a corporate entity.
Woodland trust is a non profit making charity.
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Either I missed it or you didn't mention how long ago this boundary change occured. I belive the time limit is 12years for getting away with stuff like this and then it's over.
Recently we got a letter informing us that my deceased father-in-law had inherited land in ireland but the sitting squatters had now gained absolute title to it - land and property we knew nothing about but would have been ours was simply lost. And unbelieably my Mother lost a small farm and large house in the Czech Republic to which she was entitled because she was aged and forgetful about making a claim to it whereas an undeserving cousin had done so, kept quiet about matters until enough time had gone by to allow her to sell it. Again it was only after the sale that authorities bothered saying it had gone!
I lost 2 farms.
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Did you not check boundaries before you bought the land?
Have you met the Woodland Trust on site? Personally, that is what I would do, with my land agent and presumably theirs.
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I have met with them. Their response is well it’s shown on our map so it’s ours and we have used it since they brought the woodland.
They won’t share with me the purchase documents and they are not held on land registers.
My deeds shows it’s my land and also the towers deeds show some of the land belongs to them.
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I can't remember the transition date but somewhere in the 90's all new transactions went online at Land Reg. That implies that woodland trust bought and remarked those boundaries over 12yrs ago. In which case as per my previous message you have lost it?
The problem with deeds is that they weren't always updated if parts of parcels were changed -often someone too mean to pay for it.
I've also just been through similar with lost deeds when my Mum died (lost by the solicitor she lodged them with for safe keeping!!). I had to go through 6 mths of hoops to sort that and when it finally came to the Land Reg bit they did at least make some deep checks. Fortunately i had documents from when my dad bought the land and designed and built his house. No actual land sale doc but supporting discussion docs with building societies and solicitors as well as all the bills for bricks and windows from 1961. Even then it was a bit touch and go as to whether i'd be granted absolute title as opposed to possessory title. And when Land reg finally granted that they still managed to get my home address completely wrong on their system and we've been waiting several weeks for that correction to be sorted....
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Either I missed it or you didn't mention how long ago this boundary change occured. I belive the time limit is 12years for getting away with stuff like this and then it's over.
Recently we got a letter informing us that my deceased father-in-law had inherited land in ireland but the sitting squatters had now gained absolute title to it - land and property we knew nothing about but would have been ours was simply lost. And unbelieably my Mother lost a small farm and large house in the Czech Republic to which she was entitled because she was aged and forgetful about making a claim to it whereas an undeserving cousin had done so, kept quiet about matters until enough time had gone by to allow her to sell it. Again it was only after the sale that authorities bothered saying it had gone!
I lost 2 farms.
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Sorry clumsy cut and paste. I think you do need to check the time table for all this before you start falling out with neighbours - and tbh the fall out is really stress to avoid.
Perhaps ypu could arrange a fixed fee consulation with some solicitors. You have all the facts to hand and should be able to get clear advice quickly.
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Adverse position can only take place if the trust believed that the land did not belong to them thus adversely possessing it also they would have had to have had exclusive use of the land I have a right of way over their land to get to mine as an alternate access secondly they would have had to have had exclusive use of the land they are claiming they have not. The 12 year rule does not apply in this case.
http://www.maitlandchambers.com/information/recent-cases/horace-parshall-v-clara-hackney-2013 (http://www.maitlandchambers.com/information/recent-cases/horace-parshall-v-clara-hackney-2013)
In a nut shell If disputed land was inadvertently registered under two different titles belonging to two different owners, the owner in occupation of it could not claim adverse possession since his occupation was not unlawful.
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Sounds like you know what you are doing
In my experience keep using land and possession then onus is on them to institute action
Where land ownership was in dispute in cases like this i thought the earlier title deed had advantage
pending
In my case they sent land registry deeds , surveyor report you name it.
Then one bank holiday they tried a land grab but i was waiting
Instructed the machine operative if they touched my fence police would be called and would press charges
for criminal damage.
Supermarket called police they said civil mater until they damage fence ...lol
Final correspondence was if they or contractors touched anything they would be in court
They replied clients were not happy at me making threats never heard another thing
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It’s a civil matter as you say. So my next move is to fence in the land I claim is mine.
If they try to remove the fence I shall call the police as that is criminal damage.
The fact that the mast people also have been stiched up helps my case :-)
They have deep pockets to get it sorted.
I spent some of the morning in with the forestry commission survayer as
It’s them that the Woodland trust purchased the forest from.
The chap seems to think I am correct as they will have worked from the OS maps so I am 100% sure I will be able to tell the woodland trust to shove it.
I used to give them money never again and now I’ll actively discourage people.
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I feel like banging my head against a wall. I have a section of my fence line that does not match with the past OS maps. A corner of my land is now showing as being owned and registered to the woodland trust. However my deeds show different and documents registered in the 1980s show the missing land is part of my parcel. Its never been sold.
The original purchase transaction documents from the forestry commission to the woodland trust are not held at the land registry only a submitted map any one can submit a bloody map !!!!!
The woodland trust refuse to show me the purchase transaction maps etc they say they bought the land I say well prove it to me then. You can buy land that does not belong to the seller.
I am sick of them trying to push me about. There is no such thing as land theft. So I will be fencing in the stolen land. They then can spend money on taking me to court as I have all the correct documentation. They won't be able to remove my fence as that would be classed as criminal damage !!!
The woodland trust should be honest instead of being dishonest.
Fuming.
Get some white post card sized plastic notices made to tie one every 5 mtrs to your fence with black cable ties through holes in the notices , words showing outwards off your property
Get the lettering done in post office red ( Check the internet / eBay for them ? )
Use wording such as
PRIVATE PROPERTY
KEEP OUT
your name
a secondary email address set up specifically for the purpose
Don't put your phone number or home address lest some dick'eds ring you at all hours ro see if you're in to break in if there is no answer etc etc ..
Do send the WLT a recorded letter disputing their version of events teling hem why & keep a recorded copy as indicated below .
You might look to the land registry by way of an appointment personal visit to see if you can view any earlier sale documentation for there might be a codicil that lets them have the land or not prior to your purchase . If so it's worth getting copies for either way .
Some of these old solicitors offices that handled sales have been taken over so many time . legal specialist companies buy up old deed title documents to see if they can snatch land from the rightful owners & claim a commission from the big owner for doing it.
The WLT will also have their own land department doing exactly the same where they ride rough shod over most folk with adjacent land ..or try to .
Good luck .. stay calm & carry on .
Dave
One last very very important thing .... Do not ever rely on O/S maps to show boundaries only go by title deeds you physically hold or those that you have official stamped up land registry copies for .
One guy I know paid a lot of money , going around disputing a boundary only to learn in Civil court he was wrong .
He'd been using a 1921 O/S TF series map for his boundary .When he should have been using his 2005 deed of ownership & sale documentation . The area involved was about three acres & would have given him sole full access to the rear of his small holding on to a metalled road .
The rightful owner got costs and damages for slander to his reputation so be really sure what you say and do is correct .
Final thing
Once your single strand fence wire is in place with the notices , hang a current newspaper on the fence , so the front is clearly visible & traceable , then photograph it , if you can with some of your buildings in the distant back ground .
Make three copied of the photo , sent one to WLT fully identified with your case number & personal details etc etc and post two separate copies of every thing to yourself by signed for recorded mail .
Don't open your copies , just write on the unopened letters the date & what's inside the envelope once you get it as judges love precise detailed proofs of ownership or time line actions taken to help the case . Keep the posting receipts for everything too taping them well to the right envelope .
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That was a good result Mart6 .
Whatever you do keep the letters even if it means using & paying for a banks deed box system .
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Good luck, dont let them grind you down
And please keep us updated
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Yes - good luck with that :thumbsup:
You have one big advantage over the WLT and that is that you have a personal interest in the disputed land and they are merely employees. As such they are paid to do a 9 - 5 job and basically it makes no difference to them whether the case is won or lost. So there is a time when they will give up arguing and move on to some other project, because it just isn't worth the hassle. So all you have to do is stay the course until they give up. :excited: And like mart6 says - keep us updated. :fc:
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Thank you for the useful information. The case has become more interesting and a little more complex ! I spoke to the land registry and owners of the tower. The title deeds for the radio mast and the land its purchased on used to belong to me. It now appears the mast has been built 6m further back thank it should be and 4m right. So the mast is built partially on land that belongs to me they have accepted that fact and are going to rectify the situation.
Thus the 6m of land in front of the mast that the woodland trust claim they own definitively cant be theres as it belongs to the mast people and was registered as theres in 1980 long before the woodland trust came along !
The title deeds for the sale of land also shows my defined boundary as per my arguments that is registered with the Land registry in 1980 another nail in the coffin of the thieving trust.
(http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k562/NBeginningsFrance/Screen%20Shot%202017-09-15%20at%2021.57.13.jpg) (http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/NBeginningsFrance/media/Screen%20Shot%202017-09-15%20at%2021.57.13.jpg.html)
1st map to the left shows the sale of the mast the yellow box. my land is the green land. it shows the mast position should be tight up against my bounder
2nd map middle shows the mast position in reality and where it is registered with the land registry.
3rd map to the right shows the red line up against the mast you can see the black line in front shows the correct OS line. Clearly the woodland trust have now taken land that does not belong to them from the tower owners and my self !!
You can even see the tower is supposed to be oblong and the woodland trust have pinched a corner from it.
This is going to be an interesting battle ! As the Land registry have clearly messed up.