The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: SallyintNorth on August 20, 2017, 09:59:52 pm
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Anyone tried the bark control collars that vibrate on the voice box? Or the ones that deliver a citronella spray? My old collie, Skip, is pretty deaf now and doesn't see too well either, and has taken to barking rather more than is acceptable when I'm not around. He doesn't bark at nothing, but as we live in a community, it is not okay that he barks every time he sees or is aware of someone else within 100 yards of where I live!
I've tried shutting him in, but he gets upset and gets destructive. I've tried obscuring his view, but ditto and he has twice escaped when trying to get through the visual obstructions. Visual obstructions he can't reach have helped, but not quite enough.
I can't use the obvious technique of telling him off when he barks, because he doesn't do it if I am there, and stops if he sees me returning. He's pretty deaf, so I can't hide and call out a telling off!
So now I am wondering about trying one of the collars that vibrates on the voice box when the dog barks.
Anyone tried one, or got any views about them? There are also ones that deliver a puff of citronella, which I'd be prepared to try if I had to, but I thought the vibrating one was probably a kinder one to try first. I'm not willing to use the ones that deliver an electric shock, but the other two types seem okay to me - unless you folks are going to tell me different...?
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They don't work and are cruel, especially to an old deaf dog. My old boy is deaf too and barks more. My neighbours all have been told and they are very understanding. I try not to leave him alone too long.
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I stopped my older dog from needless barking by spraying him with water and he soon got out of the habit.
I am assuming your dog is outside so that's why he's bothering people. So if you're not there, could you ask someone else to just give him a short spray with a water pistol? Obviously if someone just comes round and tells him to stop then he is being rewarded for barking by getting attention. So he needs to learn that pointless barking will result in less than desirable attention.
I rather suspect though that the reason he is barking is because of his age and reduced sight and hearing and he is actually feeling insecure because he can't see you and doesn't know when you're coming back. Is it possible for you to take him with you when you go out. I am sure he would feel happier and more secure just sitting in your vehicle because it would have a closer association with you.
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They don't work and are cruel, especially to an old deaf dog. My old boy is deaf too and barks more. My neighbours all have been told and they are very understanding. I try not to leave him alone too long.
I get and agree that the electric shock ones are unkind. And I would always prefer to use positive methods tan negative. But I can't spend all my time with the dog, and it isn't reasonable to expect my neighbours to put up with constant barking for hours if I'm out and the kids are playing nearby, or people are doing something in the vegetable plot or whatever. So I'm having to explore all reasonable possibilities (that aren't cruel.)
Can you expand on what you believe is cruel about the ones that vibrate, please Annie? I haven't come across them before, and it doesn't sound like it's other than a strange feeling that makes the dog stop barking because it feels odd.
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I rather suspect though that the reason he is barking is because of his age and reduced sight and hearing and he is actually feeling insecure because he can't see you and doesn't know when you're coming back. Is it possible for you to take him with you when you go out. I am sure he would feel happier and more secure just sitting in your vehicle because it would have a closer association with you.
You may be right abiout the insecurity, although I think it's more that he likes to bark at the children as he isn't a fan, and I'm not there to tell him off. (He did bark at them when I was here but of course I told him off, so now he only does it when I'm not here.)
I can't take him if I go out in the car, no. I live in Cornwall now, so it is often too hot to take a dog in the car. Plus, he's old and rather arthritic, and gets quite stiff after more than a very short while in the car. I rather doubt he will see next spring, as I expect to have to make the decision that he isn't living a comfortable life at some point over the coming winter - but I'll keep him going as long as he is comfortable and it is practical to do so.
Often I am not away in the car, just elsewhere on the site - milking the cow, for instance, or in a meeting, or whatever. Dogs are not allowed in communal buildings, and I can't have him with me if I'm out and about but not able to give him 100% attention, as a) being deaf he can wander off and potentially endanger himself and b) he's not reliable with children, of which we have a number here. And if I tie him up, he gets very upset, and/or barks.
I've had one or two offers of houses where they'd be happy to have him indoors with them by arrangement, but unless they're happy to have a dog cage for him I don't think it's really practical, as children might come visiting at any time.
My only other option is to leave him locked in a dog cage in my own place when I'm not there. I thought the vibrating collar was probably kinder than that, but perhaps I'm wrong about that?
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I can see it's a bit of a difficult situation. :thinking:
I have 2 collies who, when they are outside, bark whenever someone goes past. They don't go on pointlessly, and they do stop when I tell them.
One goes in the house when I'm out, and the other is chained to her kennel.
Nell, the outside one, loves having something to watch and will spend hours watching the peafowl that are always wandering about. She prefers that, to being inside with nothing to do. Is there anything you could give your dog to distract him? Is he a working dog? Would he be interested in watching a couple of hens in a pen nearby?
If he only barks when people go past, are you sure that it is unacceptable to your neighbours? After all everyday life is not completely silent! I personally don't mind someone's dog barking for a reason and then stopping. It's when it goes on for ages in the same bored monotone that it becomes irritating.
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Could you leave the telly or radio on? Do it when you are there and going in and out so he associates background noise with you and you coming and going.
My personal view on the collar or spray is that with an old dog his mind may not also be working up to speed either and to suddenly find those types of corrective methods being applied maybe stressful. It is his insecurity that is the problem not him being willful.
If he is getting stressed and you can't find a solution then maybe you need to let him go as you are going to end up stressed worrying about your community. :hug:
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Can you expand on what you believe is cruel about the ones that vibrate, please Annie? I haven't come across them before, and it doesn't sound like it's other than a strange feeling that makes the dog stop barking because it feels odd.
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Electric shock, dog does not lie it learns to stop barking. Spray, dog does not like it learns to stop barking. Vibration, dog does not like it learns to stop barking. They all work in the same way. Dog thinks the stimulus is negative enough to over ride to want to bark this we know for sure. We cannot say as people which stimulus the dog finds worst. I would guess that with a nose 1000s times better than ours the citronella was the most cruel. As I imagine we feel the electric shock similarly in a way it is the safest.
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I'm uncomfortable about the effect on an old dog of any of these measures. Not being there when the buzzer went off, you wouldn't be able to see the effects. Even trying it with you there, would be different for him than it going off when you're not around. I wouldn't use any of those methods. Both my dogs are elderly now and it would be frightening and incomprehensible to them.
Have you tried discussing this with your community? He's an old dog, and deserves their understanding.
Behaviourally, he is doing what dogs have done for aeons - warning of possible trespassers and looking after you and your interests. To an old dog, unused to children, the noise they make, shouting and laughing, playing noisy games and so on, will be seen as a threat, worth a warning. It sounds more than just that he's not a children fan, but more that he is stressed by their presence, and when you're not there to reassure him, he just keeps on barking.
I'm worried about punishing him for doing what is natural dog behaviour, and his purpose in life (now herding livestock is out). Does he get the chance to work with the sheep at all still, or is his new life a total change? Does he get long walks and as much exercise as he needs? Presumably in his old life, he was out and about most of the time, probably with other dogs for company. Does he get plenty of time with you? Are there other dogs in the community he might be friends with?
I think what I feel is that you are putting the community ahead of the dog. Perhaps that is necessary in your new life, but it's a shame the dog has to come out bottom. He's not going to be around for much longer so maybe you need to modify your behaviour to make bigger allowances for him, and give him a good end to his life. When you're milking, put him in a hurdle pen near you, and talk to him as you work. Maybe one of the children would love to be friends with him, and with the fear of the unknown he would relax a bit more in their presence.
Please don't take offense Sally, I'm not trying to be critical, just to get you to see things more from the dog's angle, and work out ways to make him happier in his new life.
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I won't take offence, don't worry. :hug:
Yes I am putting the community first. He's an old dog, probably hasn't got a great deal longer, and if it has to be slightly foreshortened because he can't adapt to his new life, then so be it. Yes in general people are making allowances, but in decent weather in the school holidays the children are out and about playing a lot of the time - which is great to see. So on nice days, or even just days when it's not actually raining, he can be barking for hours. It's not just a few minutes then peace, sadly. I thought we'd sorted it by moving the dog kennel (a big one with a small built-in run) to a spot where the children don't play so nearby, and putting up a screen so the dogs can't see the children in the distance, but sadly it didn't work.
Yes he still gets to work a little bit, and actually gets more (and more gentle) exercise now, with me, than he did before I moved. Here I walk about checking a small number of livestock in a few small fields, but take longer about it than I used to most days on the quad bike with the dogs running about! And they were penned in their stables when not out with me up north as it wasn't safe for dogs to be loose, and they weren't allowed in the house, so in fact they have a much better life here, and much more time with me, than they did before.
There are many options I can't try because of Skip not being reliable with children. So having him stay with other people if I'm out and the kids are playing outside puts an unacceptable level of responsibility on that other person to ensure there isn't an accidental meeting and a snap. I tried a muzzle but Skip hated it. Maybe I should work harder on getting him to accept a muzzle, then he could be with other people, safely, when he's not with me.
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Would putting him in a cage in your house be so bad for him then? You mentioned that he has been shut up in stables in the past. Now that he is old he might be quite happy to doze in a secure environment, not having to be on guard all the time, until you come back.
Of my 2 working dogs, the younger one is chained to her kennel outside when I'm out; and the older one, who is about 10, sits in his bed inside. As soon as he sees me get my car keys or put my coat on then he automatically goes to his bed. As far as I know he's quite happy inside till I return because he has the security of his own bed and knows that when I return he can come and sit with me or go and help get the hens in of an evening. I may be gone for up to 8 hours at a time but the system seems to work and both dogs know the routine and that I will be back.
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i am now caging him when I leave him if I know I won't be more than a couple of hours or so and think he might have reason to bark. It's when I'm away for longer we have the problem, really. I've just had a holiday, so he's had longer stretches of being on his own than he would most days when I'm here, so it's been worse. I guess if he is still with me by next summer I might have to plan to not be away when the weather is likely to be good and the kids all around.
Could you leave the telly or radio on? Do it when you are there and going in and out so he associates background noise with you and you coming and going.
He's pretty much deaf to voices these days, only seems to hear clapping really, so unless I had the radio loud enough to annoy the neighbours, I don't think he'd hear it! It's a good thought, though. I might see if I can come up with an alternative that doesn't rely on one of his faded senses. :thinking:
If he is getting stressed and you can't find a solution then maybe you need to let him go as you are going to end up stressed worrying about your community. :hug:
Well, that's where my thoughts are, really. I figured a few unpleasant experiences with a vibrating collar might be preferable to going early to the long sleep.
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Please don't muzzle him and leave him unattended - that's not what they are for. He needs to pant otherwise he could overheat.
I would persevere with caging him in your house, then you could leave a radio or something on. He deserves a good retirement surely.
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I don't have room for a large cage in the house; it's a very small space where I am living at present, but there's a spacious cage on the decking outside, under an awning, which I do use. I don't like leaving him in that if I'm going to be out for more than two or three hours though, plus he does sometimes still bark when he's in that. Maybe I shouldn't be so reticent about leaving him in it for longer. I worry that as an older dog he may need to relieve himself more frequently, and he could therefore become uncomfortable in the cage, in which he keeps himself clean, or be upset by having to soil. Also, being unable to walk about for extended periods definitely makes him be stiff.
Again, the radio isn't going to help as he's deaf.
I could ask someone to let him out if I'm going to be away for a longer period, but it is the nature of life here that sometimes one doesn't get to do something one had planned to do for a few hours longer, so he could still end up incarcerated for a longer period.
I would never leave a dog muzzled and unattended, no. And won't use the type of muzzle that holds the jaw closed in any case, precisely because they can't pant properly. The muzzle would be to enable me to leave him with other people, who could then be sure there wouldn't be an unfortunate incident whilst he is in their care. I will persevere with getting him used to a muzzle anyway - one which doesn't hold the jaw closed so allows panting, drinking etc - because if there is an incident with a child then I think he would have to be going for the long sleep. Plus, I'd sooner no children were hurt.
He has been learning to like one of the smaller children here, but he can react aggressively if he suddenly comes across children, even when they do nothing to provoke. And has snapped at children who have never done anything to provoke him, who are standing still and quietly. At his age, I don't think I am likely to be able to modify this behaviour now.
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To answer some other comments I haven't specifically picked up on thus far.
I did have him in the house when I was out when I was first here, and it worked well for up to four hours. I didn't want to leave him longer in case he needed to toilet. Then one day I got waylaid, it was longer than four hours and although he hadn't messed thank goodness, he had done some damage to my rucksack, in which there were some dog biscuits I guess he could smell. Unfortunately after that, he started investigating and causing damage even when left for shorter lengths of time, and when given a good walk beforehand so should have been happy to sleep for a few hours.
I have a small cage in the house but don't like to leave him in that for very long at all, it's just large enough to stand and turn around. There isn't room for a bigger one indoors. The other dog often chooses to be in that cage when she's in the house with me, but she's not shut in it and I'm always present. (She's not reliable in the house on her own, but is fine if I'm in.)
The cage I do leave Skip in is a very large one but one of the things that bothers me about leaving him for a longer period is that I don't like to leave water in it in case he spills it and then is lying in wet, which would make him very stiff and uncomfortable.
Yes of course he deserves a good retirement, and he'll get one if it's practical. He's his own worst enemy, with the destructiveness if indoors alone, barking if outside, and being so horrible with children. Apart from all those things, he's a lovely dog :). But arthritic, which also constrains how and where I can leave him.
Juliet's idea of having him with me while milking did make me think about whether there are times they could be with me but aren't, but I do spend as much time with him as I can, often being in my own space in order to be with the dogs when in fact I would rather be out with other community members, but I can't be with him all the time. If I'm out and about on the farm, the dogs are usually with me unless it's unsafe or I'd have to leave them tied up, which they hate. As to milking itself, even if I did the hurdle pen thing, and made another pen outside the dairy for him to be in while I'm getting ready for milking and when I'm processing the milk, I couldn't manage a dog on a lead plus carrying all the gear to the field and then the milk back to the dairy. We only milk once a day, first thing, and usually the kids are having their breakfasts and aren't out and about just yet, so it's not the worst time for the barking anyway. Some days I am in the dairy for some time later in the day, and I can certainly think about making a comfortable, weatherproof pen for him outside the dairy, so he can be near me (and away from the children) when I am in the dairy.
We had a lovely long period of peace when the neighbours' garden was unappealing to children, and the space in front of the decking had enough foliage to provide quite a bit of screening. After the 'princess castle' got moved elsewhere and before the recent digging work opened up the space and made a lovely spot for the kids to run around, have a slide down a bank, and so on. Just my luck it's within sight of my decking and also the outside kennel. It doesn't feel appropriate to ask the children to not play there, especially as that family has three boys, two of whom are very keen on being indoors on their computers so we are all very pleased at anything that gets them out in the fresh air! Moving Skip to a different location now, not near where he knows I am living, would be very unsettling for him, I think.
The suggestion of someone coming up onto the deck and spraying him in the face with water when he barks is, to me, worse than the vibrating collar. The latter gives him an unpleasant feeling if he barks more than a couple of times, enabling him to choose to be quiet and be comfortable. The spray bottle gives him the experience and thence expectation that people he doesn't know very well may randomly approach and do horrible things to him. The decking is up some steps, and he stands at the top of the steps barking. If he stops barking as the person approaches, then they would be spraying him when he isn't doing anything wrong. If he is still barking, then he is seeing them as a threat and is guarding my house, and is attacked for so doing. Thankfully he generally likes most adults, but he has been known to nip people he doesn't like, so teaching him that anyone might do horrible things to him at any time seems to me to be a recipe for a much more difficult dog than I already have!
i will continue to work on things that should reduce the problem, and some of the ideas in this thread have been helpful so thanks everyone for the thoughts.
However I remain of the opinion that some discomfort as discouragement is preferable to having to be incarcerated where he can't see out (which clearly upsets him), being PTS or biting a child and then having to be PTS, so I think I will get one of the vibrating collars and see how we get on with it. I will report back.
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Dont rule out a radio just because he is deaf. My father was deaf but he could feel the vibrations from the radio playing music.
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Are you possibly worrying too much about the neighbours' children?
I understand about live and let live, and obviously you don't want to fall out with anyone. But you have rights as well and your dog is as much part of your life as their children are of theirs.
You say Skip was quiet when he couldn't see them. Is it possible to get a small shed for him, faced the other way so again he can't see them?
Could you discuss it with your neighbours without being in any way accusatory? After all the problem appears to be caused by their children (although I wouldn't suggest that in any way that you say that!) Maybe explain it all how you've described it on here and see if they have any suggestions.
I've always told my family - "I don't want to hear what you can't do. Work out what you can do." I'm sure if you discussed it with the people most affected (apart from yourself) that someone could come up with a compromise acceptable to all. After all summer doesn't last for ever, kids will soon be back at school, Skip may not have much longer either. So it's not for ever.
(By the way, the water spraying suggestion worked for me because it was a small amount of water, sprayed from a distance, and only done while the dog was still barking. It didn't even have to reach him to be effective. I was NOT suggesting that a stranger came up to the dog and sprayed his face/soaked him with no distinction of whether the animal was still barking or not.)
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Well, that's where my thoughts are, really. I figured a few unpleasant experiences with a vibrating collar might be preferable to going early to the long sleep.
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Preferable to who?
Somewhere it mentioned on here about deserving a good retirement.
We are attaching human thoughts here. Do dogs think about good retirements when they are out in the fields working? I very much doubt it.
I'd like a "good retirement" and that doesn't include sitting about on my own for long stretches then being punished for complaining about it.
My dog passed away recently. She was nearly 11 and was my absolute shadow. She went very quickly at the end and died at home very peacefully. I am very grateful that. She had a great life outdoors every day. She wouldn't have been happy getting to a point she couldn't keep up or spending long periods on her own.
I think we owe it to our animals to be "harder" to ourselves and "kinder" to them sometimes. And that means not attaching human sentiment to the situation and doing what is best for them and not us.
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Thanks for sharing your story harmony :hug:. However, the situations are not analogous. Skip has always been shut away when not working until I moved here, because I was living on someone else's farm and that's how he did things. I hated having the dogs locked up in a stable when they weren't working or otherwise out and about on the farm with me. So thus far Skip's new life and partial retirement beats his previous working life hands down!
It's interesting to ponder how things worked previously, however. Skip did bark, from his stable in the corner of the farmyard, when someone new came into the yard. He learned who were the visitors who were regulars and/or friends, and did not alarm when they came. (Apart from one neighbour who Skip didn't like. ::)). So I had expected him to do the same here, learn who lives here and the regular visitors, and not bark at them. His failing hearing and eyesight, though, I guess make that harder for him. Also, I've just realised, I've no idea whether Skip used to bark a lot when we were out when I lived up north. We hadn't any neighbours near enough to be bothered by it, and no one ever mentioned it. So it is possible this isn't a new behaviour. :thinking: Not sure that helps any, mind.
I think as our dogs, whether work mates or pets or both, approach the ends of their lives, each of us has to make judgements as to what is and is not acceptable for that dog, taking into account our knowledge of the dog, our personal situations, etc. Most often we talk about these things in terms of health and mobility, pain and so on. In this case, I have to make a quality of life judgement for a dog I've worked with for 11 years (he was approx 2 when I bought him) who is not yet so uncomfortable (thanks to his medication) that life has become not worth living. I knew that an old injury would render him arthritic as he aged, and was mentally prepared for the decisions that would arise on that score. When I decided to move to the community here, I knew that there could well be problems with these dogs and the children here, and that I may end up having to muzzle or destroy one or both dogs if they couldn't learn to tolerate the children, if we couldn't be sure that the children were safe.
I wil think about what you've said, harmony, and whether it would be kinder to Skip to have him PTS than the alternatives. One complication is that I am still not yet in my own flat, but in temporary accommodation. This has all taken way longer than any of us anticipated, so I had expected that long before now I would have worked out some 'dog accommodation' under the decking or somewhere, where the dogs would see and hear less of the goings on around the rest of the community. However, this is all still many weeks away, and winter will be around the corner then, so maybe I'm not being sensible thinking that it will be worth hanging on for Skip.
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I wasn't suggesting our situations were the same and maybe I made my point badly. What I was trying to say (and dogs live very different lifestyles) but sometimes when they can no longer do their "normal" thing the alternative doesn't always suit them.
It is a very hard decision and I feel for you.
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When all's said and done Sally - it's your dog and you know him best.
I wouldn't dream of telling any experienced animal keeper when to have their animal put down.
If you think the vibrating collar has potential then go for it. Obviously you're not going to carry on with it if it needlessly stresses Skip or does not have the desired effect.
Will be interested to hear how you get on. :fc: [size=78%] [/size]
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Thanks, both. And thanks for saying the difficult things, all of you. :hug: Not always easy to say, not always easy to hear. I do appreciate your all taking the time to voice (write) them.
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When I decided to move to the community here, I knew that there could well be problems with these dogs and the children here, and that I may end up having to muzzle or destroy one or both dogs if they couldn't learn to tolerate the children, if we couldn't be sure that the children were safe.
And you still moved there? The advantages must be considerable.
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A tricky situation and I don't envy you one bit.
I am concerned about the collar though, in terms of a punishment that you can't supervise. An example - my friend used a citronella anti-bark collar, and it went off when the dog sneezed, the dog took 4 years (yes, 4) to not be scared of sneezing again. It didn't stop the barking either, just heightened the entire stress response.
Will the community kids be going to school in Spetember? Would that relieve a little of the pressure?
Can your old boy see well enough to maybe watch some TV when you're out? Just thinking of some form of distraction / entertainment, if he's a "watching" type of dog.
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When I decided to move to the community here, I knew that there could well be problems with these dogs and the children here, and that I may end up having to muzzle or destroy one or both dogs if they couldn't learn to tolerate the children, if we couldn't be sure that the children were safe.
And you still moved there? The advantages must be considerable.
Yes, this is where I live now. It suits me very well overall.
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Will the community kids be going to school in Spetember? Would that relieve a little of the pressure?
The three boys whose garden is the new favourite playing area are unschooled (I've learned so much since I've been here! I'd never heard of unschooling before), so don't go back to school, no. Five of the others do go to regular school at present (although two of them are expected to be home schooled later on), two of them just starting this year, so that will be a help, yes. They're home at 3 o'clock, mind. And weekends is when I am most likely to be out all day, as I do milking all but one weekday, and animal rounds three of the weekdays, so am necessarily around more during the week.
Can your old boy see well enough to maybe watch some TV when you're out? Just thinking of some form of distraction / entertainment, if he's a "watching" type of dog.
I haven't any telly where I am at the moment but will have in the flat, so I can give it a try once I'm moved. I'd have to fathom some way of constraining him so he can't do any damage but can see the TV :thinking:. Might be easier just to get him his own tablet with Netflix or something and prop it up where he can see it! Although it would probably be too small a screen... Might have an experiment with that, thanks for the idea.
TBH, at his age he seems happy just to sleep in between walks, feeds and fuss / play times, unless there's a reason to be kicking up a racket ::). He does love lying in the sun, though, which I can't leave him doing if he's giong to bark his head off if the sun also brings the children out to play. ::). Silly old dog ::)
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When I decided to move to the community here, I knew that there could well be problems with these dogs and the children here, and that I may end up having to muzzle or destroy one or both dogs if they couldn't learn to tolerate the children, if we couldn't be sure that the children were safe.
And you still moved there? The advantages must be considerable.
Sometimes in life we have to make decisions which mean we can't give our animals the life we want to or they had. We are then left with difficult decisions like Sally has now. The situation may not be brilliant from the dogs point of view but at least Sally knows there is an issue with the safety of the children and isn't just ignoring it. The issue would be the same where ever she lived unless she had no neighbours and no work to do.
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Thanks, harmony :hug:
Plus, if the dogs behave with the children - and don't bark their heads off whenever they're left on their own for a few hours ::) - they'll have a better life here, we'll all have a better life here, than they were having up north.
I can't tell you how much I regret not socialising Dot properly as a pup. I didn't think it would be an issue, she was a working collie on a hill farm with no children... hey ho.
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I am really late to this and dont have any advice-except for water in a crate. I use the savic crock jumbo water bowls for crates-they bolt on so dont spill and cant be thrown about. I use them with a golden retriever so they are big enough but dont take up crate space. just fyi :)
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So the dog's life has changed quite drastically in recent times: environment; routine; exercise; companionship of the leader of the pack; perceived threats. Difficult to cope with for a younger dog, let alone one that's fairly set in his ways and no longer in tiptop health. He's feeling insecure and is therefore defensive. Is it easier to remove the dog from the threats or the threats from the dog?