The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: Womble on August 07, 2017, 09:52:55 pm
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Like many smallholding couples, Mrs Womble and I don't see eye to eye on everything. To give three examples:
- "Dinky", our kitchen reared tiny tup lamb from last year is still running around the field, and disappointingly still has his b*llocks too. He's clearly never going to make it as a breeding tup, although being small and bouncy, he did manage to jump the fence at Christmas and get our ewe lambs pregnant >:( . Also, he's now charged at me twice, so I don't dare turn my back on him ever.
I think he should become burgers before autumn hormones make him any worse. Mrs Womble wants to keep him because he's still cute as hell, and wiggles his tail like a lamb if you rub his chin (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/Smileys/default/whistling.gif) .
- "Bramble" is a 3-shear ewe who has given us great lambs two years running, and has had no problems whatsoever..... until coming down with mastitis a fortnight ago. The vet says she will almost certainly have no milk in future so just get her through the antibiotic withdrawal period and then turn her into mutton.
I am happy to accept this advice and put her in the freezer. Mrs Womble thinks we should give her another chance next year, and bottle rear her lambs if she has no milk.
- I believe that our land will support about fourteen ewes plus their lambs. We're currently on track to be up at this number by the end of next year, as our home bred lambs join the flock.
Mrs Womble wants to buy more sheep to replace three old ewes who are going for cull soon. I want to stick with just the ones we've got, because I really don't want our holding to become an overstocked mud-fest in the winter.
I'm a head before heart kind of guy. I like to look at evidence, understand what's going on, and make a practical decision. I also believe that the sheep must work for us, and not us for the sheep, so I want to make decisions which will keep improving our situation into the future (e.g. culling for problem lambers and bad feet).
Mrs Womble, however is all heart. If one sheep is gorgeous and lovely to have around, two sheep must be twice as gorgeous. And no, she doesn't really care if we have surplus tups kicking about, or milkless ewes. Each and every one of our animals is her friend, and she loves them dearly!
This thread isn't about these specific examples though (so please don't discuss them); it's about the principles behind the decision. Do you and your smallholding partner(s) find yourselves in similar situations and unable to agree on the way forward? If so, how do you resolve them? Actually, *do* you resolve them, or do you just keep kicking the can down the road like we do? ::)
Please share your experience, as I think this thread could end up being quite enlightening!! :thumbsup:
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I just do as Dan tells me. :innocent:
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Sure you do Rosemary, sure you do ;).
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Do you and your smallholding partner(s) find yourselves in similar situations and unable to agree on the way forward?
No. Mrs Me has seen what happens when you give sheep "a chance" enough times. We have children and consequently a (female) pet sheep that will certainly never leave here so there are exceptions - but we will be punished for it.
Your Wombling wont be very free with a smashed kneecap...
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I just do as Dan tells me. :innocent:
Aye, right. ::)
We usually discuss, compromise, and do what Rosemary wants. :D
Seriously, I'm all logic so can appreciate your perspective. I find it helps if we have a default position - a baseline agreement about why we're doing this and what role the different enterprises have.
So if something's 'for profit' (in theory), having non-paying passengers, however cute, isn't a runner. But that still leaves room for exceptions if we both agree.
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Hmm, I'm a bit of both- head and heart. Unfortunately heart usually wins.
In theory, I am happy to move on less productive stock, but in pracice.......
We have a tup who was supposed to be a wether. He is the sweetest boy so won't be going anywhere, but he is a pain in the a*se around tupping time. He will be having a little op soon!
We have registered and unregistered ewes. The aim was to move on all unregisered ones until we had just registered, but can't possible get rid of "Norm"!
The chickens all look the same, so while the plan was to cull them as they started aging and not laying, we don't know who's who so they all stay.
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As I look after the animals and do most of the daily work its more or less left to me when an animal is culled. Having a tup about the place that you don't need is just a waste of ground space. There are times I wish I did not have to decide when the pigs or sheep go but if it was down to my OH we would not have them in the first place. He does enjoy the end product though.
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Will respond more about partnership decisions later .... But if you haven't already got one ...I solved the ram problem by convert to teaser.... But have to say he doesn't butt.
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The solution is staring you right in the face, my head'll be bitten off for this one... Assert your manly authority, tell her that although you do value her opinion you need to think of the good of the animals/livelihood before cute and cuddly. Make the decision, simple as. Mercenary Ik, but sometimes these things have to be done for the good of the future. Ok I'll get me coat! :coat:
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Insert your manly authority,
I take it you meant 'assert'...
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Oh, WBF ..... Please edit quickly. :roflanim:
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Oh, WBF ..... Please edit quickly. :roflanim:
No don't, I'm still chuckling :roflanim: :roflanim:
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Ex-BH and I often didn't see things the same, but then I'm a Smallholder and he's a commercial farmer. So we both had to make allowances for that.
We had the luxury of each having our own stock, so I'd be head decision maker about mine and he about his, but we would still discuss and listen to each other's advice. Not necessarily take it, but always give it a hearing.
My own priorities became pretty clear to me, and help me to make decisions.
1. I need to be fit and well to look after them all, so anyone dangerous has to go.
2. I can't bear to have animals I can't look after properly, so anything very time consuming or overly physical means I can't keep that one.
3. No animal should be other than healthy and happy. However cute, or lovely its fleece.
4. Don't breed problems.
I don't know if a couple would find it useful to make such a list each, and maybe then try to combine their lists? Might help.
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Oh, WBF ..... Please edit quickly. :roflanim:
Ohhh :o :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:
Just edited now, sorry bout that ;)
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The solution is staring you right in the face, my head'll be bitten off for this one... Assert your manly authority
LOL, Yes, I probably should insert ;) my manly authority WBF, but I value consensus and teamwork too highly to lose that (and potentially far more :o ) by simply over-ruling Mrs Womble.
I have to say, though I'm not surprised to hear that opinion voiced, I'm surprised that it was by you, [member=42855]waterbuffalofarmer[/member] , being a young lady and all. A genuine question then: how do you think you would you feel if your husband / wife / significant other asserted their (manly?) authority over you? Do you think you'd respond well, or would you hit them over the head with a rolling pin, as Mrs Womble would most likely do to me? ;D
I've decided my negotiating strategy though; if Mrs W will agree to get rid of Dinky and Bramble, I will consent to buying two more productive ewes to replace them. OK, that could lead to overstocking eventually, but if I manage to buy some old dears who only have a couple of years left, it could be a good compromise.
Sally, you're absolutely right; having written objectives and priorities would definitely help to guide us here. We'll have a chat about it, since if we really do want different things from the smallholding then we can adapt our plans accordingly, to keep both of us happy as much as possible.
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Sometimes we have to take a step back and look at it from a way off and analyse everything thoroughly. If my other half put it to me like that, the way you did, I would accept it because it's the logical decision. If on the other hand both points were illogical I would demand a third point of view ;)
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What if you knew that the point of view is entirely logical, but crosses one of your values? (such as involving turning your pet lamb wot you nursed lovingly for weeks in the kitchen into burgers) ;)
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What if you knew that the point of view is entirely logical, but crosses one of your values? (such as involving turning your pet lamb wot you nursed lovingly for weeks in the kitchen into burgers) ;)
I was always brought up to know that pets don't always make it to adult hood, males always go for slaughter, unless really good genetics, or to market. We were as children actively encouraged to rear the lambs, first few times was difficult and I always feel like a murderer after I have taken them to the abbatoir, very depressing, but meat is always good to help forget ;)
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Insert your manly authority,
I take it you meant 'assert'...
:roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim: That is the best typo only. Unless, of course, it's not a typo. ;) ;) ;)
If my OH tried to lay down the law, he would no longer have a manly authority to inset or assert.
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I'm the smallholder with experience ... so any animal decisions are generally mine (though sometimes it would be good to have someone to discuss option with)... and have to say am a head person (with a heart which does fall for the cute things (hence the one eyed sheep dog and wethers kept cos they eat out of my hand!). However head always rules on safety (one cute weather who now butts is OFF!).
Decisions about other stuff ... hmm he does have to admit I have good ideas ... I just have to be careful how they are presented!
Think your idea of not discussing actual cases is probably the way forward generally ... make some general rules which you both agree on (max number of sheep and min number of productive sheep? ) then negotiate around that (a new cute one kept means another removed!)
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My OH is a lot more experienced with livestock keeping than I am, and the sheep are on his land so I do listen to what he says. I don't always agree though - we both have our own sheep and we know the land will only support 20 ewes, so we've agreed to 10 ewes and 1 ram each. He sometimes thinks I'm daft keeping the sheep I do but doesn't interfere so long as I don't breach my allotted number (although saying that, he played a very active part in my purchase of 4 new ewe lambs this summer, when I only intended buying 2!)
I tend to do a lot of research before making decisions and in some instances he's been very pleased with the outcomes - for example we now use Molecto instead of Crovect as it's considerably cheaper but the same ingredients, even though he's always used Crovect. When I do come up with a good idea, he embraces it, and I do the same for him but we do discuss and occasionally agree to disagree.
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No... pretty much together with most decisions regarding the sheep, as it's run as a commercial flock so no room for passengers. Empty for 1 year- cull, prolapse- cull, bad mother/feet/just plain wild- cull. It's a small flock so no room for free riders hence 30% of my flock were culled this year (2 empty, 1 small prolapse). Regarding the cows however there are a lot of things my partner and I would do different that his parents probably wouldn't agree with. I think my mini flock of sheep are run more commercially than the commercial herd of cows at the moment :roflanim:
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a new cute one kept means another removed!
Mrs Womble has agreed in principle that Dinky should go before he does somebody a nasty (he likes her well enough - it's just me he goes for!). However, he is apparently so gorgeous that it will take two ewes to replace him without causing an unacceptable loss of overall flock cuteness.
Now I know what David Davis feels like!
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It's not about manly authority (I just...no.)
It IS about cold hard facts.
I tend to have lines in the sand for certain things - animals that are dangerous, temperamental, or suffering. For example I've decided to cull a cow with mastitis once she's weaned this calf. Vet says she'd calve again, but do I want to breed in this weakness? Do I want to risk her own suffering again? The amount of treatment she needed was bordering on cruel, there were no injection sites left to use that weren't sore and bruised, etc etc.
Outside those hard lines, things can be fuzzy. We've a runt calf, but she's friendly and bucket trained, so she can go with each new batch of calves as a good influence.
Dangerous animals go to the butcher, but if one just doesn't quite fit with our system then it can go to a home. If an animal is fine with me but has taken against someone else on the farm, then that person decides.
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What if you knew that the point of view is entirely logical, but crosses one of your values? (such as involving turning your pet lamb wot you nursed lovingly for weeks in the kitchen into burgers) ;)
I would ask what you were expecting to happen to your lamb and go from there
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Great question [member=2128]Womble[/member] Regarding shared decisions I guess I have learnt over the years that 1) I am usually right so 2) I am not always right and 3) Being right is often not the most important thing and 4) Emotive decisions are better made (especially if more than one decision maker) if the principles are decided beforehand.
I had one ewe this year with triplets, thought I would give her a go at bringing them on and rescue if necessary, wrong decision, she couldn't cope and will have to go on the cull list. Had another ewe struggled a bit last year, gave her 'one more chance' she struggled and again had to rescue the lambs, she is on the cull list. So regarding principles my principle going forward is to err on the side of ' if in doubt don't, as both the above examples caused discomfort to the ewe and inconvenience to me. But I only learnt that by trying.
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Mastitis will flare up again and be painful for the ewe, even if the lambs are bottle fed. Dangerous animals have no place on a farm. A ram that's stroppy at this time of year will be 20 times worse by tupping season. Only the very best stock should be bred from: anything else does no favours for the breed or the buyers of offspring that may look OK themselves but have the genetics to throw a wobbler in the future.
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Thanks Everybody. Marches Farmer - I know you're "right" about this (but I would say that, wouldn't I, because you agree with my point of view). The key question is how do you handle the situation when your equal partner in life and smallholding thinks differently. Arguing logic as you have done is perfectly ok, but it is on a different plane from the one they're thinking on, and only makes one (i.e. me) look cold and uncaring.
An update on the situation then: Following Sally's excellent suggestion, Mrs Womble and I have agreed some basic ground rules:
1) Any animal that is dangerous has to go.
The problem here was not that Mrs W disagreed with this, but that because Dinky had never shown her any aggression, she thought I was using a minor transgression as an excuse to get rid of a non-productive animal. Once she witnessed his behaviour first hand, she agreed with me that he has to go. He has been booked into the abbatoir next week, along with our three mastitisy ewes (these are another story, but it's been a hard month! :'( ).
2) Any animal which is suffering, or may pass on ailments to others (e.g. infectious mastitis, CLA, recurrent footrot etc etc) has to go. In case of disagreement, we will ask the vet what they would do if it was their animal (with a smallholder head on, so not necessarily thinking purely commercially), and will then follow that advice.
We still have to decide what to do about other animals, for example non-productive older ewes or non-aggressive Dinkies, but this is at least a start.
Also in return for doing in her wee pals, I have to buy her some replacement ewes at the forthcoming Stirling Z auction. TBH, there are worse concessions to have to make to keep a marriage together! :bouquet: ;D ::)
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I would ask what you were expecting to happen to your lamb and go from there
Best thing I learned from a coaching course I went on is try to approach difficult issues by asking a question rather than stating your point of view .... cant say I always remember (logical heads just plough in!) but it has made quite a difference and think it smoothed the rearing of teenagers a bit!
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We still have to decide what to do about other animals, for example non-productive older ewes or non-aggressive Dinkies, but this is at least a start.
We always keep back one tame ewe that would otherwise go to cull (generally an older one whose milk yield hasn't been up to scratch) to become head of the flock of weaned ewe lambs and make training to bucket and call much easier. That way they serve a valuable purpose in the flock and generally die with their boots on.
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The problem here was not that Mrs W disagreed with this, but that because Dinky had never shown her any aggression, she thought I was using a minor transgression as an excuse to get rid of a non-productive animal. Once she witnessed his behaviour first hand, she agreed with me that he has to go.
I have previously been guilty of the same error. We had a cockerel who was always charming in my presence but got a lot of complaints that he was aggressive and chasing people around. I assumed it was exaggerated and I failed to realise how bad he was or how scary it was until I saw it first hand.
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It's surprising how aggressive some animals can be. I had a hand reared goat from the age of 5 weeks. She was so sweet as a tiny thing but soon started to show her true colours. She would go out of her way to knock me over - I'm not steady on my feet - and then started on other people. She wasn't so bad with other goats or the dogs. She did taste nice though. In fact, I found there was a certain pleasure in the Karma of eating her. Got her daughter now who is little sweetie.
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It's surprising how aggressive some animals can be. I had a hand reared goat from the age of 5 weeks. She was so sweet as a tiny thing but soon started to show her true colours. She would go out of her way to knock me over - I'm not steady on my feet - and then started on other people. She wasn't so bad with other goats or the dogs. She did taste nice though. In fact, I found there was a certain pleasure in the Karma of eating her. Got her daughter now who is little sweetie.
There is something about that ultimate revenge isn't there LOL
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I have a young student who works for me, cleaning out the goats and doing some gardening. I gave him some of that goat and he said he enjoyed every mouthful. He had also had a number of run-ins with her. :roflanim: