The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Primitive Sheep => Topic started by: James1 on July 08, 2017, 08:29:00 am
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Hello, I thought I'd put up a question regarding Mouflon and soay. Has anybody ever done any studies to see how closely Soay are related to wild Mouflon like DNA and what have you? When I see pictures of Soay rams with large mains white saddle patches and big wide horns I do think they must be fairly close? Or is it possible some soay have had Mouflon blood added in more recent times?
JR
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There is DNA research out there James1, but you'd need to search for them in scientific papers. If I remember correctly, there is evidence of three ancient sheep types in all domesticated sheep, including Soay.
What do you mean by 'white saddle patches'?
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Thanku fleecewife, I mean like the white patches you see on the side of the body, like a wild mouflon. I have some pictures but not sure how to post them on here??
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I googled wild mouflons. I see what you mean but I've never seen pure Soay with those patches. They have pale underneath, and the teardrops at their eyes, in the mouflon colouring. You can also get allover white, allover black and allover brown, plus various proportions of white with black or brown random patches. Do you have a link to Soay pics with those markings?
I've just looked at these pics, many of which are of feral Soay on St Kilda, and I can't see any at all with the pattern you mention. I'm wondering if it's Soay x mouflons you have seen?
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=soay+sheep+on+St+Kilda+images&rlz=1C1ASUM_enGB714GB714&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzos7fm_rUAhUIK8AKHdOxBa8Q7AkIQA&biw=1280&bih=591#imgrc=jU0CB7ciDik3QM (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=soay+sheep+on+St+Kilda+images&rlz=1C1ASUM_enGB714GB714&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzos7fm_rUAhUIK8AKHdOxBa8Q7AkIQA&biw=1280&bih=591#imgrc=jU0CB7ciDik3QM):
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Registered Soay
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Unregistered Soay
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Hi James
Are these in North America?
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Hi , no the registered one was for sale on the RBST website but I was to slow in responding to the add. The unregistered one was for sale in Shropshire. I know if they were in the US you'd say they were American Soay!!
JR
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I don't recognise those as soay but as some kind of a cross. agreed that without knowing the provence i would have put them as from the US.
The second one could have age greying comming in it would be interesting to have had a pic of the animal as a lamb.
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I'd have thought a cross too.
Difficult to tell from photos but these look more 'solid' /,thicker set than Soay that I've seen.
Also not seen a saddle marking in Soay.
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Also those manes are way thicker and more pronounced than even the hunkiest Soay. The horns are light for a Soay tup, and the face narrower and longer.
Were I contemplating such a tup I would want to study its pedigree or history very closely, and preferably see its parents or other flock members. Registered doesn't guarantee pure bred.
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am I right in thinking that the RBST keeps a flock book that includes some US bred animals...?Who are resiedent in the US would they appear on the RBST listing?
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Are US bred Soay different in appearance to UK animals?
Just looked at a couple of American sites but they look much the same to me.
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No I agree they should look the same as UK soay that was the point of maintaining them on the registry to ensure they weren't subject to the same outcrossing that has occured with the "american soay" notably barbados blackbelly but presumably some mouflon as well . But if some were registered ( accidental matings between american and RBST soay ) then that may be an explanation for how they appear to be RBST (uk) registered animal.
explanation to be found here http://openflockbook.com/heritage.shtml (http://openflockbook.com/heritage.shtml)
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Thank you Kanisha - the link is fascinating, and may well explain the pictures James1 posted. To be sure we would need to know the registered tup's flock name at least.
I wonder which breeds have been used in the development of the American Soay, and whether or not there is some Big Horn in there.
Ah, I've just looked at some Big Horn images, and none has the white saddle patches......
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But barbados blackbelly ( american version) do, acknowlegement of outcrossing the caribbean version with mouflon;
http://knowledgebase.lookseek.com/Barbados-Blackbelly-Sheep.html (http://knowledgebase.lookseek.com/Barbados-Blackbelly-Sheep.html)
so it isn't just cocker spaniels that end up being unrecognisable .... ::)
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Really interesting, Kanisha, thank you for the link.
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Some really interesting thoughts and ideas on the pictures I've put up. I agree that if they were of rams in the US I'd definitely say they were American Soay but they are rams in the UK. I also agree that just because a ram is registered with the RBST doesn't mean he is pure!. If Soay originated from wild Mouflon thousands of years ago there could always be the chance that Mouflon traits will appear from time to time in a flock of pure bred animals. If those with Mouflon traits like large main, white saddle patch and large wide horns were bred and selected for could it not be possible that eventually you would have soay that look very much like Mouflon but are also pure registered soay??
JR
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more likely to cross breed them.
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kanisha who's more likely to cross breed them?
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You had better ask the people who placed the adverts.
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Any system of pedigree registration relies on the honesty of the breeder and their commitment to maintaining the unique characteristics of their chosen breed.
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Kanisha I did when I phoned about the adverts. The first one was registered the 2nd one wasn't. I'm going to visit the flock that produced the 2nd ram in the next few weeks so hopefully be able to see siblings and stock ewes in the flesh.
JR
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ask them for their explanation as to the differences. Sometimes as happens in every breed people buy stock unaware that they really aren't getting animals that are purebred ( even with papers) This is usually because of a lack of knowledge on the part of the purchaser and also a lack of full disclosure on the part of the seller.
Divergence from type - to answer a specific question it has already been discussed on this list with quotes from recognised geneticists that the soay pattern is not considered the same as mouflon ( or wild)
There is difficulty in tracing the original ancestor of the european sheep directly but most models put the european mouflon as a direct ancestor ( although some consider it a feral domesticate) so ALL european sheep are thought to have mouflon in their ancestry which goes to show just about anything can be developed if so wanted BUT the time frame is over a LONG period many many generations. I think I'm correct in saying that few soay were on the mainland apart from in ornamental parcs ( along side mouflon) before the begining of the 20th century. To obtain mouflon pattern ( as a recessive?? ) from soay pattern would require a great deal of chance and time to select those traits out from the breed.
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Poultry are a good example of the longer a breed's been around and confined to a small area of the country then the more "fixed" it becomes. Our Dorkings, for instance, are like peas in a pod, even though we regularly bring in a new cockerel, but the Laced Wyandottes show considerable differences in things like lacing pattern and comb shape, even though we've bred only from correct birds for five generations. Our main sheep breed, the Southdown, was one of the first breeds to be selectively bred to improve wool and carcase, from around 1780, but some breeders are now bringing in French and NZ bloodlines of lineage which cannot be verified beyond a couple of generations and this has prompted the Society to initiate a survey with a view to perhaps splitting "Traditional" from "Improved" in much the same way as has happened to Aberdeen Angus and Hereford cattle.
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The issue with Soay and primitive breeds is that unlike many breeds they were developed and evolved to survive the living conditions and environment of the landscape in which they were developed. As is so often the case bringing in blood to "improve" them and you end up losing the original traits that have stood the breed in good stead. the soay is probably for the UK as a breed, unique in its age ( the earliest living example of domestic sheep breed) and also that the nucleus for the breed still lives in unmanaged isolated flocks. I am just wondering what people think they would be bringing to the breed by fresh blood... ::)
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Yeh a lot of good points. I know I've never seen any pictures of Soay from st Kilda with Mouflon markings!. I'll see if I can get some pictures of the ewes and lambs when I visit.
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did you get to see any of the sheep James?
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Hi kanisha, yes I did and the ewes look fairly regular mouflon soay ewes. I took some pictures of some yearling rams that I will try and post. The rams are all half brothers and some may even be full brothers to the unregistered ram I posted a picture of earlier. I would like to know if people would class them as light or dark Mouflon? You can clearly see that some are developing the white saddle patch and these ones in particular tend to have a lot more hair apposed to wool?? You can see the dark chest hair starting to appear.
JR
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Yearlings
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Yearlings
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Yearlings
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I am by no means an expert in soay but I will stick my neck on the chopping block and say they are dark phase.
A helpful hint to identification may be found here. http://priscilla.saltmarshranch.com/2010/02/13/light-phase-soay-sheep-recessive-gene/ (http://priscilla.saltmarshranch.com/2010/02/13/light-phase-soay-sheep-recessive-gene/)
And I wouldn't agree on the appearance of a white saddle marking from the photos shown. If you look at the first photo and the ram stood centrally there are several areas of lightened fleece. Closer examination should reveal the most likely cause , colour changes consistent with changes in fleece type and fineness ( light areas corresponding to finer fleecier areas )
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I would say dark moufon, too.
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If I had pictures of the ewes I would think most people would class them as light phase. I would agree that maybe due to the dark hair the rams would be classed more to the dark side?
Kanisha I would agree if the light patches were fleece, but these rams really do have a lot of hair and when I had them in the pens the light patches were hair . I was told by the breeder that the main and saddle patches don't come in fully in till they are 3-4years!
I purchased 10 yearling rams that i intend to run on to see how they develop in coat and colour.