The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Community => Introduce yourself => Topic started by: Bev123 on June 15, 2017, 12:24:00 pm

Title: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Bev123 on June 15, 2017, 12:24:00 pm
Hi I'm Bev I started breeding poultry as a hobby that grew. As it does. Lol
I bought 4.76 acres of green belt agricultural land in 2001 an grazed my miniature mares an foals on it during the summer. In 2007 got a few chuck, that's how it starts isn't it. Got a goat at this time so applied for a CHP number. People often gave me unwanted poultry and as had plenty of room soon grew enough to need a flock number. Declared this as a business in 2007 so tax forms for the pittance it fetch but hey ho has to be done.
Anyway this last week had a visit from the local council. Apparently I cannot graze the minis. Poultry an water fowl are not an agricultural business and the 50 yr old cherry trees are not allowed either.
I've Got to appeal as council want it reverted to green belt agricultural whatever that is.
They said even having a water bucket on the field for the horses is not allowed. I fetch water an have no electric an have unlike so many NO desire to live on the property. I leave the mud muck feather an straw in the car or at the front door. Has anybody else had this problem. Any advice would be most welcome at this stressful time.
Thank you x
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: landroverroy on June 15, 2017, 03:58:22 pm
The council is wrong.
Grazing animals is an agricultural operation, and that applies to horses. There are technically, for planning purposes, 6 types of horses - you'll have to look them up as I can't remember them all. But of the 6, grazing horses is most definitely agricultural. If you had livery horses, for example, that would require planning because it's a different business. Also keeping horses on land where they are primarily fed on food that is brought to the field, not produced on the field, is classed as non agricultural. But if all your horses do on the field is eat the grass then that is definitely an agricultural use.
Similarly, keeping animals for production of food, ie poultry, is agricultural. And as for the cherry trees - well words fail me!! If they've been there 50 years there's nothing the council can do about it.
Have they actually given you written notice to "remedy the situation"? It sounds to me like it is only verbal, in which case I would ignore them. I would like to think they would get their facts straight before making it official. For advice, I would go to your local councillor  (NOT council official!) - find out which one is involved in planning and they should be able to help. After all, that's what they're elected for.
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: mart6 on June 15, 2017, 04:54:58 pm
landroverroy is right

Who visited you planning or enforcement ?
Some of these council officials amaze me with the un factual/lies they spout out sometimes

Quote
Section 336 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 defines ‘agriculture' as including:
    ‘horticulture, fruit growing, seed growing, dairy farming;
    the breeding and keeping of livestock (including any creature kept for the production of food, wool, skins or fur, or for the purpose of its use in the farming of land);

    the use of land as grazing land, meadow land, osier land, market gardens or nursery grounds; and
    the use of land for woodlands where that use is ancillary to the farming of land for other agricultural purposes.’

Give the p___- a copy of this
www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb7275meat-chickens-020717.pdf (http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb7275meat-chickens-020717.pdf)
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: harmony on June 15, 2017, 05:13:53 pm
I would ask for everything in writing. No water buckets for your ponies. What rubbish. That would be a welfare issue. Has someone complained?
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Bev123 on June 17, 2017, 10:24:03 am
Yes had a complaint about development, vehicles and caravans.
On the visit from planning office lady, who I have to say was very pleasant, was told that even putting a trough or water bucket on the land is change of use. Poultry sheds-biggest is 8x8 was a permanent structure or building as was not movable with out heavy machinary even though it is stood on slabs an not attached to the land. I was cheeky and said I didn't think an electric screwdriver was heavy machinary but would happily add 2 poles to the sides and 4 handles each corner to make it portable. As with the other smaller coops.
I have a 20x 20 walk in coop an couple of smaller ones that I attach to sheds with batten an tent peg into the ground.
A tool shed which has a lawn mower strimmer  and chainsaw. So she said it was for gardening not agriculture. Have a lamanitic mini who's paddock is cropped short by mower the strimmer keeps edges of boundary to the road clear so livestock does not push against the fencing chainsaw for fallen trees taking off hazardous low branches n putting points on end of fence posts etc.
The horse box is not allowed to be there either as it contain living area and has the porta loo-which take home to empty if really caught short, fridge to make a drink an gas fire to have warm half way though winter day n dry cloths used occasional. It still has the partitions in back an holds my rugs tack etc. Apparently I've changed its use by not having a current mot to storage, so aid if get it plated still not good enough cos its stood on slabs so permanent not movable.
Old van is used for hasadous materials ie fuel can weed killer in front. Chicken bedding feed in the back. Not on slabs but not allowed.
Caravan stripped out an used once chicks are feathered to house till old enough to go ou an hay straw feed during winter.
Nothing I have is agricultural purpose so all has to go incl the new gate post I put in between fields as I dug into the ground an therefore structural engineering! Exsaspered
Where do I find out besides town n planning act to find out my rights? X


Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: landroverroy on June 17, 2017, 10:42:57 am
So - is the complaint in writing? That is the really essential bit.
Is it an enforcement order, which will give you dates when you have to comply, and how to appeal?
Or is it just a threat of enforcement? This can be argued with - I've had a few of them. Sometimes the council issue them because someone has complained. If you can justify your sheds etc then they can tick the box to say they have investigated and you will hear no more.
Or is it just this planning woman coming round and throwing her weight about?
As I have said, your first possible choice at no cost is to talk to one of your local ELECTED councillors. Look up who represents your area and give them a ring. If you're lucky they might be able to help you. (If you're unlucky they will be clueless!)


Research on the internet - Martin Goodall's planning blog is very informative.
Further support can be obtained by joining the Country Landowners Association - they have free legal advise. As do the NFU - but I think it's the Smallholders section that has the free legals.
Check your household insurance - again sometimes legal cover is included.
Failing that - talk to a planning expert. At @£60/hour it can be money well spent.
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Bev123 on June 17, 2017, 12:31:05 pm
Have had a letter from the planning re complaint and visit last week. Explained the uses and gave full access to ALL areas. Which was photographed. Have to wait for the letter. So the discussion was verbal and what was said/decided will be received in letter form in next two weeks.
According to the lady that visited I'm not alowed to use it for business purposes. No wonder farmers are so poor as they must work for free. Lol.
Let you know how I get on an have a look at websites you have suggested. Obviously I would wish to appeal so am thankful for any advice or pointers. Most grateful thanks. Bev x
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: mart6 on June 17, 2017, 08:34:01 pm
Dont be taken in by the friendly approach
Take a read here part got deleted as the site crashed , but it will give you a idea how they work
and some of the total rubbish they tell you

http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19952&hilit=definition (http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19952&hilit=definition)

Any future conversations inform them you will be recording them at the start of the conversation.
If they visit again ensure you have a witness and a recorder at hand

Photograph shed with time and date then move it and remove slabs and photograph it again.
Then do the same again in another month, do same with the coop.

Anything they have seen and photographed is only a snap shot of that day and does not prove anything.
Wait and see if they issue a enforcement notice if they do get straight back to us, its easy to appeal once you have been through it

Quite a bit of what you have been told is tosh , see what they put in writing
BTW  which council ?
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Bev123 on June 23, 2017, 01:53:05 am
Thanks chuck. Said I'd have to wait 2 weeks for the enforcement letter. Said I couldn't apply for retrospective planning on 7+8yr old field shelters or a CLEUD?
Apparently my 4.75 acres is too small to run agriculture from?
Anyway will wait for reply. In mean time have read posts you advised an contomplating joining NFU.
Much appreciated xx
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Bev123 on June 23, 2017, 02:11:53 am
North Warwickshire borough council.
Looked up my local councillor an researching different sites and town n country act.
Like you say a lot of which was said was tosh
Have found my original receipts out for sheds and have old digital photos with time/date. In some are the foals so they give a time line as used some of the photos in their passports with their date of birth in so have copies of them too.
Many thanks. Bev x
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: mart6 on June 23, 2017, 07:21:55 pm
North Warwickshire borough council.
Looked up my local councillor an researching different sites and town n country act.
Like you say a lot of which was said was tosh
Have found my original receipts out for sheds and have old digital photos with time/date. In some are the foals so they give a time line as used some of the photos in their passports with their date of birth in so have copies of them too.
Many thanks. Bev x
Thats great re reciepts
Dont apply for retrospective planning they pulled the apply for planning stunt on me
Far better and cheaper to appeal a enforcement notice and you get a unbiased opinion
Not the crap the planning/enforcement will tell you.

You could show them copies of photos if buildings have been up for years they can not take action against them if you can prove they have been up  long enough.
Your plot can be one acre and still be agricultural.
They will need more than one site visit to prove its not agricultural use.

And the important timeline is how the property is being used on the day the enforcement notice is served
ie if you intensify your use before its is served

Get straight back to us with exact wording of letter when you get it
I had 18 months dealing with one, its not that a big deal once you know the ropes

The planning inspectors are clued up in my experience
Planning officer and enforcement officer said i told them i was living on site, which  was not true
inspector saw straight through them

I have cooker, fridge freezer,microwave,kettle full central heating with radiators ,table chairs ect
Planning inspector said he would not class it as living space without a toilet /shower /bath anyway
All the house hold stuff the council claimed needed removing was exceptable.


Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Bev123 on June 24, 2017, 03:14:22 pm
Thanks again chuck. I have moved some of the poultry round to prove they are mobile and have put up 5 8x16x6ft high fences in a row and then fenced one end

In the process of making 8x16 tops of lath and chicken wire. So that can secure a top onto the posts and move the shed 8ft each time and unscrew the "roof" and move over one row like the shed to make them tempory.
Have likewise moved the horse box which is multi purpose. Besides moving stock we use it as a rest room during the long hours we put in. First aid kit for human and animals, feed store and area to check the CCTV cameras as had some thefts (21 ducks) an in 2014 12 turkeys an 8 geese besides silly things like wheelbarrow, tools and even some saplings and fruit bushes ?! Usually at night as I don't live there. However there is a shower in living, never tried and a seated bucket that has only been used once in 4 years as a toilet as live 4 miles away so if need that I can go home although it is inconvinient to travel The 4 mile, if used I would have to travel it in the car to empty at home. So should I remove the loo bucket thing an take the non working shower out in the hopes I can keep the lorry there?
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Bev123 on June 24, 2017, 04:55:01 pm
Must say that it does seem one rule for one ......
I'm not allowed chicken coops but on the 20 acres of green belt behind my house my local council have agreed planning on 400 houses and an industrial estate! An all I want on mine is facilities for my livestock. You'd laugh if it were funny x
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: waterbuffalofarmer on June 24, 2017, 05:07:47 pm
maybe they want to make things difficult for you so that you will want to sell it and then they will be able to buy it and build more houses?  :thinking:
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: mart6 on June 24, 2017, 07:20:39 pm
Your allowed a toilet anyway
My own example was just to show  how out of touch they really are
Planning inspector was great saw straight through the whole thing

Dont worry about anything  yet , wait and see what they actually put in writing
Mind you having said that the biggest loads of rubbish came from the head planning officer in my case.

At last minute they put in for costs and submitted that claim about residential use to try and get me to withdraw
appeal
Council never even mentioned any of the agricultural use dispite herd of goats and planted maize field.

They pulled the apply for planning permission stunt on me, i even had a 2 hour meeting in council offices
and it was sort of agreed it would be ok
Then they turned it down flat and served me with a enforcement notice a month later.

This is how incompetent they are when the planning application went in it was not for residential use
The planning officer did report and mentioned maize field and goats and pens used for goats.

Planning inspector was not amused how the failed to mention agricultural activities taking place
went the whole hog and just stopped short of calling them liars  ;)

Also do not worry about the accounts and the like they do not come into play until you go for residential planning permison

PS best place to help put your mind at rest is here

https://acp.planningportal.gov.uk/CaseSearch.aspx (https://acp.planningportal.gov.uk/CaseSearch.aspx)

Search enforcement appeals and read through the inspectors decisions
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Bev123 on June 25, 2017, 12:21:02 am
Page being up dated so will keep checking.
It's just so nice to talk to someone who's been through similar problems.
Have been looking to see if can see how long a tempory/portable building can be in situ?
Know of a horsey friend who's had her mobile shelters sited in same spot for over 16years tho is is with a different council x
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Bev123 on June 25, 2017, 12:30:56 am
Don't want permission of residence I like my comfort too much an living in the middle of a field during a cold n wet winter does not appeal in the slightest to me.
Have 3 elderly relatives I look after 5 mins from where I live an can walk if ever an emergency so living in a field holds no prospect to me lol x
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: mart6 on June 25, 2017, 06:49:01 pm
If field shelters or any building that has been up more than 4 years and you have proof ie dated photos,google earth can be handy,they can not win a enforcement action and become exempt.
Otherwise move them every 6 months and take dated photos may come in handy.
Some councils dont take action some do
In my case it was the only thing they never mentioned , but they had been up for years anyway.
What livestock do you have on site at the present time ?
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Bev123 on June 25, 2017, 06:59:14 pm
8 mini horses
Mini mule
18 geese
10 turkeys
23 ducks
18 guinea fowl
23 quail
12 large fowl
9 banties
5 giant rabbits
Guard dog lol
Re homed the grumpy goat
Did have 4 pigs but now sold
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: mart6 on June 26, 2017, 07:53:31 am
Quite a varied collection, like it
Spent 1000s of hours researching enforcement notices and appeals while mine was ongoing.
Read 100S of appeals, and some of the councils views would have you in stitches.
Best part is it takes the final decision out the hands of the councils . :D

Dumb founds me how some of them get the job.
Dont get stressed and prepare for a possible long haul, maybe they will see the light if they
realise you wont back down.

Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Bev123 on June 26, 2017, 09:22:57 am
Cheers chuck.
Love my creatures. It's my sanctuary. After running around after me poorly elderly family it is a joy to muck out and just sit peacefully enjoying their company. Don't make a fortune at it but I tick by.
Busy making extra portable runs as have 22 Turkey eggs, 56 quail, 36 guinea fowl and the last of 3 gosling to hatch this month/beg July  So if all successful will nearly double my numbers. X
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: mart6 on June 26, 2017, 11:00:43 am
As with most agricultural enterprises livestock numbers rise and fall depending on the season
and business plans.
Would certainly be useful if its expanded before any enforcement action is stated imo.
If they serve a enforcement notice its needs to be appealed (They may have second thoughts  but do not count on it)
If you appeal it is around @6 month procedure once it starts,long back log.
The government planning inspector will make a site visit, to observe everything which is beneficial
because planning/enforcement officers tend to omit relevant facts imo.
Then its @ 2 months before you receive the decision

Have to admit i do enjoy watching planning/enforcement officers making themselves look foolish.

I can not point out enough that you record any future conversations inform the parties you are doing so
May be handy to have a witness present.
Imo when it becomes obvious that you are not a push over, the recollections of conversations change
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Bev123 on June 26, 2017, 07:31:51 pm
Will tell them and record any further visits an get a witness. Many thanks x
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Mad Goatwoman of Madeley on June 26, 2017, 11:01:47 pm
Good luck.
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Bev123 on June 26, 2017, 11:35:17 pm
Thank you ????
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: mart6 on June 27, 2017, 08:49:31 am
Just to help put a few things in perspective of what you are actually allowed original building was brick stables
with attached store with permission as such

Seen plenty on the web what facilities you are allowed on site here is a top planning inspectors decision
The enforcement notice was quashed
Providing there is defined agricultural activity most things are ancillary to that
The same principles apply to agricultural use

Quote

6.  Consequently, between 2003 and 2013 the evidence suggests that the site i.e. the paddocks, the
stable block and other small shelters were a single planning unit being used for equine related
purposes. A written statement from Mrs xxxx, the daughter of the previous owner, describes how the
site was used during that period.

7.  The written ‘statement of truth’ identifies that one section of the stable was fitted out and
used by family members for seating, eating, cooking and occasionally sleeping in association with
the equine related use.  A sofa was provided for seating, table and chairs for eating, running
water and electricity were provided, a few kitchen units were installed and a wardrobe was provided
for storing changes of riding clothes. A microwave oven, kettle and toaster were provided for
making food and drinks. An electric fire was used for heating.

8.  From the information provided, the room was used predominantly at times when family members
were on site riding or looking after the ponies. For example, the parents of Mrs xxxx looked after
her young children in the room whilst she was riding or attending to other matters on site. The
family would eat together whilst they were on site. Mrs xxxx states that she would stay overnight
‘on occasions’ if a horse was ill in order to provide medication. The statement does not specify
how often this was but the term ‘on occasions’ suggests relatively infrequent use and that any
overnight stays were dictated by a need to care for sick animals.

9.  Although the statement is not a statutory declaration no contrary evidence has been presented
that would lead me to doubt that version of events.  On the balance of the evidence presented it
seems to me that the use of the room was ancillary to the primary use of the stables and adjacent
land for the keeping of ponies. To my mind, the use of a separate room away from animals to provide
relatively warm shelter, an area to change clothes, or to eat meals is not unexpected or
unreasonable if occupants were on site for any length of time.

ww.planningportal.gov.uk/planninginspectorate            2



Appeal Decision APP/A3010/C/15/xxxxxx

There was a clear functional relationship between the uses described and the main equine related
use.

10. Consequently, the evidence before me suggests that the stables and associated land were used
for the equine related purposes between 2003 and 2013. The use of the accommodation within the end
room of the stables was ancillary to the primary use of the planning unit which was a single use
covering the stables and associated land.

PS

Take a look at this it was only @1 acre plot in council adorning and he had a smooth ride

Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Bev123 on June 27, 2017, 09:26:57 pm
Thank you.
I have no buildings of brick or stone. Only walk in coops and biggest shed is 8x8. But I can see what you are getting at. During the summer an even winter when not too back my 4 yo grandson comes up to help with the chickens. Has his own little trio an the goat used to be his lol x
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Perfect Ponies on June 29, 2017, 08:06:50 am
I feel your pain - Hope there may be something of use in the following : I have just managed to get a Certificate of Lawfulness for my caravan which I use on my land. I keep horses -  It took alot but found using the following as proof to show my caravan and other structures mainly sheds had been in situ without a break for more than 10 years as required by planning enforcment  - by using google earth, photos, and I had locals write letters in support with time scale of knowledge ie moving in to the village date etc, plus asked suppliers & those who had been on the land to do work for me ie topping, muck heap removal, hayman, farrier to write and confirm the caravan had been in place everytime they had visited to deliver /work & had tea! I also used suppliers invoices to prove timescale of their knowledge of my land/stables. I also offered an affidavite via my solicitor - I made a folder of evidence and presented it to Enforcement. I also kept a diary of all phone calls etc including name/time/date what was said (also went in folder) Stay strong & good Luck
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: mart6 on June 29, 2017, 01:02:04 pm
You need to read the attachment below page 3
Appeal court case covering caravans and agricultural use for storage and rest room
 Wealden District Council V Secretary of State & Colin Day 7/12/1988
There is a precedent set in law re caravan use for storage  and rest room for agricultural  use
quote  it to the council planning officer and enforcement officer
and say if he is happy to waste tax payers money continue
IMO that is why planning are denying its agricultural use of land

Send link to council then sit back
http://swarb.co.uk/wealden-district-council-v-secretary-of-state-for-environment-and-colin-day-ca-1988/ (http://swarb.co.uk/wealden-district-council-v-secretary-of-state-for-environment-and-colin-day-ca-1988/)
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: mart6 on June 30, 2017, 04:00:52 pm
This will cover the horse box imo if it is used for storage and rest room and any other caravans so used
Council appealed planning inspector decision quashing the enforcement notice, and lost  :D

Also field shelters only need to be movable helps if you have proof, next door moves a 24ft x12ft with ropes and landrover and a couple of spars to brace it, just puts rollers under it  (fence posts}

Quote
Wealden District Council v Secretary of State for Environment and Colin Day: CA 1988


References: (1988) JPL 268, [1988] 08 EG 112
Coram: Ralph Gibson LJ
Ratio: Land was in an area designated to be of outstanding natural beauty. The Council sought the removal of a caravan used to provide weatherproof storage for cattle food and shelter for the farmer, saying that this amounted to a material change of use. The inspector quashed the Enforcement Notice on the grounds that as the caravan was used for animal feed preparation and shelter. Such uses were ancillary to the agriculture use, and stationing the caravan was not a material change. The Council now contended that the caravan amounted to a new primary use of the land, and was not incidental to the existing use, that the use now was a mixed use, and that the change was material because the caravan was objectionable viusually.
Held: The Council’s appeal failed. The court should consider not just the placing of the caravan, but also the purpose of its being so placed. The use was incidental to the main purpose of use of the land and so was exempted under section 22(2)(e), and therefore there had been no material change of use.
Ralph Gibson LJ said that he: ‘had sympathy with the contention of the council that it was both surprising and a reasonable ground for concern if the occupier of agriculture land was free under Planning Law to station at any point upon his land one of more caravans, intended to serve the same purpose as farm buildings, regardless of the harm which the Planning Authority reasonably considered would be caused by the presence and appearance of the caravan in the place where they were stationed. ‘ However, such reflections upon apparent gaps in the extent of the planning control could not affect the construction of the Act because, the meaning of the word there used in the context of the Act as a whole was clear . . . the Section . . . operated where there was ‘use of any land for the purposes of agriculture’. The word ‘agriculture’ was defined [to include] a list of agriculture activities among which were for example, fruit growing and the breeding and keeping of live stock. No reliance was placed by Mr Burrell [counsel for the council] upon any arguments to the effect that Section [55(2)(e)] could only apply to use of land for the purposes of one of the listed agricultural activities and not for use for the purposes of activities ancillary or incidental to those listed agriculture activities. He was right not to rely on upon any such arguments. The definition was an inclusionary definition. Construed in its context there was ‘use of land for the purposes of agriculture’ where the land was used for activities in direct furtherance of agricultural activity.
The stationing of the caravan on the land was without doubt for the purposes of agriculture . . . a typical caravan . . . was said Mr. Burrell, designed for human habitation as a residence and therefore the stationing of it on land could not be ordinarily incidental to a primary agricultural use. It was assumed in that submission that the degree of connection between the land use in question and the primary agricultural use, was accurately expressed by the phrase ‘ordinarily incidental’ if the land use was held to be ‘for the purposes of agriculture’ within Section [55(2)9e)] Ralph Gibson LJ assumed that this was so but it was not necessary to decide whether the connection expressed by the meaning contained in that phrase would in every case be necessary for this purpose . . . there was nothing in the nature of the typical residential caravan . . . which rendered the use of such a caravan incapable of being properly regarded as ordinarily incidental to the agricultural use of land , that was to say as an ordinary piece of equipment for stationing upon land and for use when so stationed for the purpose of agriculture.’
Statutes: Town and Country Planning Act 1971 22(2)(e)
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Bev123 on June 30, 2017, 10:54:48 pm
The shelters are not movable apart for the one 12x16 summer house which has been taken down and moved 3 times. All have been up between 4-6 years. Caravan been there 41/2 years and lorry at least 5 maybe 6. They must have viewed Google Earth as they thought lorry was a static until they visited. X
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: mart6 on July 01, 2017, 08:47:43 am
If you can see them that far back on google earth then you are ok.
Do not think you have any real  problems

The caravan and horse box would need 10 years to be exempt, unmovable field shelters need 4years to be exempt
The horse box and caravan should be covered by agricultural use imo  (REF COURT CASE)
Whatever happens do not let them take you down the retrospective planning route, they call the shots then

PS
If it was me i would send them google earth dated photos with shelters up x years
Send that court article re caravan.
Explain in your opinion its agricultural use, and you would be happy for a planning inspector to decide
Then leave it to them to decide next move.

If you do the above and they continue enforcement action ,you will have a good case to claim costs against them


Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Bev123 on October 07, 2017, 01:58:53 am
Well it's been a while since the visit. Hope you are well.
The lady that did the inspection,I have been since informed is an enforcement office not just general planning officer. After 6 weeks I hadn't heard anything an on several occasions had said to friends/fam shall I call? but was talked out of it. Only to get a further letter stating I hadn't replied to her letter sent 6 was previously so further action would be taken. Was mortified. Called straight away as I had noticed that the copy of the original letter sent was to the wrong address so had another 6 weeks to reply. I have got to do cert of lawfulness for buildings that have been on site 4 years plus.
Even though the miniatures only graze it's insisted that I get change of use to equestrian because of the shelters.
One officer said it was around £250 for this form (same office)
Have called into see the duty planning officer to assist in the filling in of forms as interpretation of some questions are quiet ambiguous an there's no way I can pay to resubmit time and time again.
It is recommended that I put in a general planning application for the poultry coops and keep either caravan OR horse box.
No mention of the wheelbarrow lol.
I've had real problems getting historic pics from google maps but do have many photos of the horses grazing 10 years plus
I am allowed to grow and retain the 50 year old cherry trees. I've found the date out of my reg small holding may 2011 which benefits my case for cert of lawfulness for chicken shed etc. Well hopefully! And found original receipts for their purchase.
Tried to submit on line but stumbled at first hurdle as field doesn't have post code. However one officer said they scan application in so only need one copy however duty planner said original plus 3. So am sending original plus 3 as not getting caught out on a technicality!
Apparently the cert of law is £385 plus another £385 for change of use plus £385 to cover the 74m2 shelters building coops. (£385 for each 0.1 hectare m2)
The planning application (general) is £385 plus £385 for each 0.1m2 of floor space including the fenced runs =159m2 which includes proposed new areas for additional poultry as my business is expanding. So costs in the region of £2310!! So be while before I see any profit from my business.
Can see why people dislike council visits lol.
Plans n cert of lawfulness going in next week. So wish me luck. I hope it all goes through ok or will have to put planning in for things not deemed required on another planning application.
Sometimes wonder if that lady in the paper who advertised her land for sale to travellers had the right idea. Lol. Makes you want to give up, it really does.
Cheers Bev x


Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: mart6 on October 07, 2017, 11:03:58 pm
Shame you said anything especially the address bit
If they served a enforcement notice to wrong address ....lol
Would not of done any of that myself could save yourself some money

You dont have to apply for anything put the onus on them i really doubt a planning inspector would see everything their way, you can graze horses and provide movable field shelters without planning permission
Post link to google maps of site ,i can get photos for you

You should of waited to see if they served a enforcement notice
now they have seen some of your evidence its even more doubtful

Odds on if they had served a enforcement notice they make a total mess of the wording and facts
and it would get thrown out anyway
Based on the things they have backed down on they are on ify ground anyway


Go read this its a bit long but it shows what some councils say is not always correct
http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19952 (http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19952)
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: mart6 on January 19, 2018, 10:33:56 am
Any news how things went?
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Bev123 on January 23, 2018, 07:39:15 pm
Well had another letter mid December 2017 from the council saying my application for certificate of lawfulness would be rejected and said to either take everything down or apply for full planning. I called them back on receipt of the letter and spoke to the planning department. They suggested a meeting with the planning inspector and said they would pass my details on and contact me. I've left two answer phone messages and an email last week asking for details of who I need to speak to to contact them myself but as yet no reply to answer messages or email.
Have since found out the last paddock I bought off Severn Trent is classed as brownfield so need to do some research on that to see if I can put my coops on that instead. In mean time had stray dog walker let their dog worry my horses an kill 2 geese after ripping the builders netting and tarp off used to screen due to recent breakout of bird flu. Sometimes I wonder why I bother. It's hard enough trying to make a go of it without all this hassle   
Think I need to get some legal advice?
Thanks for asking. This has made me feel very alone and vulnerable an nice to know that someone is interested. Much appreciated x
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: mart6 on January 23, 2018, 09:00:52 pm
Sorry to hear about your loss
Council claiming they will turn down lawfull development certificate  means nothing
When they ring say you will appeal if they do.
Intresting that they have not took any enforcement action
If you have photo proof going back years you would probably win a appeal
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: landroverroy on January 23, 2018, 09:22:00 pm
I think you would find it useful to talk to a proper planning professional. The council are obviously giving you the run around. As Mart6 says  - just saying they would turn down your application is irrelevant. Only an official notification following a written application for a certificate of lawfulness carries any validity.
The planning professional I use costs £65/hour and is worth every penny. She has an extensive knowledge of planning law and points out to the council matters of law which they choose to ignore for their own twisted reasons. She has won a planning appeal for us, handled an appeal against refusal for permitted development (still pending) and also launched an appeal against an enforcement order. Planning now is so complicated  that you really need someone handling it that knows what they are doing. The very last people you want to ask for any sort of advice is anyone who works for the council.


I chose my planner off the internet because she was local, but I also looked up her history. She had originally worked in the planning department of the local council, so in a way was a poacher turned gamekeeper. Anyone can set themselves up as a planning professional and there are some pretty useless people out there. So make sure you choose someone with the right qualifications. You can look up local planning decisions on the internet and see what names come up as handling successful applications, or appeals.
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Mad Goatwoman of Madeley on January 23, 2018, 11:45:33 pm

Thanks for asking. This has made me feel very alone and vulnerable an nice to know that someone is interested. Much appreciated x


Please don’t feel alone. TAS is one big supportive family with lots of experience. I know nothing about planning law but hope it all goes well for you.
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Bev123 on January 28, 2018, 05:22:53 am
Thanks for your replies.

Will be researching to find legal help as even though I haven't had a reply back yet can't see this just going away. Be a month now since last spoke, well left answer phone messages as no one currently at their desks, so post as soon as hear anything
Thank you x
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Bev123 on February 13, 2018, 01:02:28 pm
Well for saying this was an urgent matter that needed sorting. I've had no contact with council since December. I've left 2 answer phone messages and emailed them an still no reply. Perhaps no news is good news?
Leaving the ball in their court now, if they can't be bothered to return my calls/email I don't see why I should keep trying.
Will wait for next letter x
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: mart6 on February 13, 2018, 05:55:48 pm
Intresting
If you have proof shelters have been up more than four years they have no chance
Get evidence and have it on hand if they visit again.If they do  ask how many years they need to be up to become exempt against enforcement action ?
And watch expression on face ... lol
Get the feeling they know you are aware ...lol
Keep us posted   ;)
Which council is it ?
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: landroverroy on February 13, 2018, 07:21:46 pm
Just to let you know that we have won our appeal against the council's refusal to admit we were entitled to permitted development to convert an agricultural building to a dwelling. 3 times we applied and 3 times they turned us down on spurious excuses. So in the end we appealed and the Planning Inspector agreed with us and politely pointed out that the planners were wrong with their reasoning.


So - hopefully Bev123 this will encourage you not to give up.
As I've said, it's well worth getting a proper planning professional in. It cost us £600 (+ planning fees) for ours to put in our appeal and it was worth every penny. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Dookie on October 11, 2019, 07:37:44 pm
Very interesting thread... I hope Bev managed to win in the end...

I, too, have had a couple of 'dreaded council visits'... I bought an acre of PDL (Previously Developed Land)... It has a small redundant building on it... an old pumping station with B1 permission... I'd like to move onto the land and use the building as an artist's studio, whilst creating a nature reserve... the land has not been cultivated for years and consists of clay & rubble... great for wildflowers, but not much else.
Where I have messed up is by putting up a grain silo to store tools & stuff... it's classed as unauthorised development.

Normally, B1 has automatic planning permission to convert to a dwelling, but the council has slapped an article 4 directive on it, so there's no right to develop without PP.

As I say, there have been 2 visits from planning enforcement officers, telling me I have the right to apply retrospectively, but that my application will be refused because it is greenbelt land!

I note on this thread that it's best to wait for an enforcement notice and go to appeal... this does seem sensible under the circumstances... I just worry about the costs... I'm retired and my total income is ££300 per month... no savings!

If I put in a retrospective application though, it will be money down the drain...

Does anyone think I have any hope of remaining here eventually? They can't touch the pumping station as there has been a building on this land continuously for more than 100 years...

Just to show how strange the council is... a landowner just 500m away and in an almost identical situation as myself has just been granted full planning permission to turn an old redundant shed into a pair of semi detached cottages.

I live in hope! :fc:
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: usefullitlethings@protonm on October 13, 2019, 08:20:17 pm
If you have a CPH attchad to the land you can use it for all agricultural purposes i.e anything you need for the business to run
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Dookie on October 16, 2019, 06:04:58 pm
Sorry... brain's not in gear today... what is a CPH, please?
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: silkwoodzwartbles on October 16, 2019, 07:23:33 pm
Sorry... brain's not in gear today... what is a CPH, please?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/register-land-you-use-to-keep-livestock (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/register-land-you-use-to-keep-livestock)  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Dreaded council visit
Post by: Dookie on October 17, 2019, 12:11:14 pm
Ahhh... thank you... I knew it as an Agricultural Holding Permit...