The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: kernow64 on May 26, 2017, 08:54:54 pm
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Hi All,
My first post in this part of the forum so be gentle please.
We've recently taken on a slightly rundown smallholding and are busy getting things back together. So far we have been concentrating on vegetable and fruit growing but the time has come to get our first fowls. No previous experience of poultry keeping but I've been doing a fair bit of research.
A pleasant surprise has been that what looked like a derelict duck house nestling is (after cutting back the giant hebe surrounding it and giving it a thorough jet wash) in much better condition than first appeared.
I'm struggling to post a picture or a link but looks like a bigger version of the Littleacre Westford and is 4' x 5' x 5' high sloping down to 4' with double doors at the front and hatches on both ends. I also have a 6' x 5' x 5' weld mesh run.
The roof is toast and a few panels are rotten but replacement should be within the scope of my O Level woodwork skills as should adding some perches and nesting boxes. I'm trying to keep the budget down by using stuff I have lying around but my questions (we got there in the end!) are;
1. Roof - I'm happy to pay for Unduline Coroline (corrugated bitumin) sheets on. 3"x 2" frame with purlins rather than using old floorboards and roofing felt that I have lying around. My understanding is that although popular, roofing felt is a haven for red mites - is it worth paying the extra for Coroline sheets and are there any downsides.
2. Preservative - I have 5 gallons of proper old school creosote which is obviously great for protecting the w old and I understand is good at keeping red mites at bay but I have seen some suggestions that the fumes are not good for hens. I'm happy to leave a few weeks after treating before getting the hens - is there anything else to be concerned about using creosote around hens esp in confines of nest box (I'm not worried about myself!) and any alternative suggestions?
3. Nest boxes - internal or external, dividers (I have room for three separate boxes) or communal and how high off floor of coop - I have seen suggestions for level with floor and at 12"?
4. Planning to start with 4-6 fowls (not sure what type yet so assume medium sized) for eggs - will they be rattling around in a coop this big and possibly too cold in the winter?
Any advice would be very welcome.
Many thanks,
Jerry
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Welcome! :wave:
You already know about felt being a red mite haven so that's great. :thumbsup: Creosote does kill red mite really well, if you happen to have a spare coop for a few days after treating the birds' usual coop each summer or so it'll be fine. I personally don't use creosote (I have plastic coops) but if I understand correctly it has to be dry before the birds can go back in - easy on a day like today.
Will the coop be movable? If not, will it be near water or even electrics should you want to use electric netting? Mysteriously, water is a lot heavier when it has to be carried than when it comes out of a tap... ;)
If the run is covered and you add some sort of bedding like woodchips it should not suffer too much in wet weather (any grass in the run will be gone before you can say scrambled eggs). Dry bedding = much cleaner run.
How about foxes when out in the garden and rat proofing the run? Any birds of prey to worry about?
For 4 or 6 birds the run would be ok for part of the day (say early morning and after dinner and let them out free ranging the rest of the time - they'll happily gobble up the slugs in your vegetable garden but the seedlings too ;)
Birds don't get cold but do get hot easily, so that hebe bush might be just the thing for them to hide under on days like today. Or add a dark roof or shade netting to the run, a big christmas tree with its root...
Having said that, if there's any clear perspex or similar laying around that can be fixed to the run, they'll appreciate a few windbreaks in winter.
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Hi Eve,
Many thanks for taking the time to provide such a comprehensive reply.
In answer to the points you raise;
Creosote - :thumbsup:
Coop moveable - No (even without roof, I can barely lift it off the ground), but water/electricity are close by. The coop is in a small paddock and I will be happy for them to keep the grass down.
Run - Good point, I'll add a rain/sun shade.
Predators - We have 10 plus acres on a Welsh hillside so although I have not seen any foxes yet (I have been using a trail camera) to see what is out and about, I assume they are around and we do have plenty of red kites, buzzards and a peregrine around. The weldmesh run will be foxproof (I assume that there are no issues for the hens about having a mesh floor) and we will just have to keep our fingers crossed regarding the raptors.
Run - the weldmesh run will just be for when we are out and don't want to leave them uncovered. The plan is to get 50 metres of 4' netting to give them a large area to range freely in and when we are confident that they can be trusted, we will move the netting to keep them out of parts of of the veg garden.
Off to the builders merchants this morning, any thoughts on the location of the nesting box, whether it should be raised and communal or divided.
Many thanks,
Jerry
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If nestboxes are higher than the floor they may appeal as roosting places and you may end up with extra cleaning or dirty eggs. So look at where and how appealing your proposed roosting spaces are by comparison.
I personally wouldn't mesh the floor, despite fox risk. Hens love scratching and dustbathing. What I'd look at is a 'skirt' laying flat at 90 degrees to the fencing, outside the run, a foot or two out that grass can grow through but foxes can't dig through. I don't have anything so good here but if I was starting up and had weldmesh, that's what I'd do.
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Leave the creosoted house to dry until you can stick your nose inside and not smell it (about three weeks). Onduline is excellent and much less likely to harbour red mite than felt, as well as permitting stale air to exit the coop - let it overlap the sides by at least 5cm to stop rain driving in. Nest boxes at ground height o prevent roosting and soiling, perches need rounded corners if flat timber, or branches about 6cm will do. Weldmesh skirt works well at protecting the run from foxes. Badgers will rip the side off a wooden shed if hungry enough so if you have any around it can be worth running 60cm chicken wire along the bottom of the unprotected sides. Use traditional hexagonal chicken wire, not the lightweight square welded stuff as it's weak . Chickens can cope well with cold weather if the bedding is dry and entrance door is facing away from the prevailing Winter wind. If you keep a breed with large comb it's worth putting Vaseline on the comb if the weather turns really cold - this will prevent frostbite. If you have a spare bit of Onduline or similar you can prop it against he outside of the run on the relevant side to cut wind speed when the gales blow.
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@ ellied good point, I should have elaborated :) We do have weldmesh on the floor of our runs but there's bedding on top of that.
The weldmesh keeps rats etc out (they can a dig 3ft tunnel in one night), and an unintentional but verry happy coincidence is that because the holes in the mesh are 1/2inch, the bedding sits in top and doesn't get churned up into the ground - this way not only does the ground level not increase (we're both 6ft2, we don't need that :D ) but the dirty bedding can be shovelled and swept off every few months and replaced with a few new bags of Laysoft / Aubiose / whatever inexpensive horse bedding you can get.
I echo ellied's point about the mesh skirt - even only 25cm of mesh does stop a fox - and we have oodles of them around here night and day. The fox is very determined but not clever enough to start digging that little bit away from the run.
My husband loves it that I keep chickens - there's no end of diy to do when avian addiction strikes (read: using power tools and buying ever more! :D )
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Coop moveable - No (even without roof, I can barely lift it off the ground), but water/electricity are close by. The coop is in a small paddock and I will be happy for them to keep the grass down.
IME chickens won't keep the grass down. They're extremely hard on pasture. They'll kill it into bare spots where they like scratching or dust-bathing and they'll let it grow long inbetween.
Edit: obviously this doesn't apply in a small run, in which it will all get destroyed double quick.
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Thanks all for taking the time to provide some really helpful replies.
I've got all the timber and Coroline roofing I need from the builders merchants yesterday, I just need to wait for the dry weather to return so I can get on with the refurbishment and give the creosote plenty of time to dry.
FWIW, I love the smell of creosote and hadn't realised that it was now restricted (reminds me of treating fences for my dad - one of things that were acceptable in the 1970s but which, quite rightly would be frowned on now), but I have plenty fir this job and found suppliers happy to supply more for agricultural use.
The weldmesh run is intended as a halfway house for when for whatever reason ( away for the weekend etc), we don't want to let the fowls range freely (or within the confines of a 50m run) but don't want to keep them cooped up. At night they will be shut in the coop.
Unfortunately, the run will be up against a wire fence so it will be difficult to put a weldmesh/wire on that side but I will give further thought to this.
Vermin and predators do worry me - the coop/run will be fairly close to house and I have been using a trail cam to keep an eye out for nocturnal visitors but have not seen any foxes yet but there has been nothing here to attract them, although the presence of an old humane fix trap (and various ancient gin traps hanging up in the barn - don't worry, I'm not planning to use these!) suggests that that previous owners had an issue.
The coop itself is not on elevated legs and I am a bit concerned about rats getting into the void under the floor but will keep an eye on this.
I'm not bothered about damage to the paddock - the alternative occupants (unlikely now until next year) would be pigs.
Once again, many thanks for all the replies, can't wait t get started.
Best wishes,
Jerry
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Removing the feeder at night can help keep the rats away but the warmth and free food are a great draw. We've known them gnaw through the corner of a stable door in a single night. You could use a secure bait box nearby, especially in the Autumn when the rats come off the fields after harvest and are looking for a warm hotel for the Winter months.
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Vermin and predators do worry me - the coop/run will be fairly close to house and I have been using a trail cam to keep an eye out for nocturnal visitors but have not seen any foxes yet but there has been nothing here to attract them, although the presence of an old humane fix trap (and various ancient gin traps hanging up in the barn - don't worry, I'm not planning to use these!) suggests that that previous owners had an issue.
You're spot on, the predators will be there as soon as the prey is there, waiting for you to leave a door open or even just popping into the kitchen for a cup of tea whilst your birds are in the garden. Leave your camera on during the daytime as well and you may well see a few suprises.
We once had a suspected stoat problem (and we live on the edge of suburbia so not rural) and put some of our quail in a stoat proof cage as bait with the camera aimed at it - the stoat did kill that night but in another part which the camera couldn't see :rant: Hence the 1/2inch 14g (I think) mesh, that stops everything in its tracks (except on he roof it's thinner 1inch mesh as galvanised 1/2inch mesh weighs a tonne).
One thing to remember about rats on a smallholding: if you put chicken pooh on the compost heap it'll be a rat haven. We put the whole lot in the wheelie bin :innocent:
What's the wire fence the coop will be sited against? Is it the kind of mesh on rolls that was popular a few decades ago beween gardens?
Can you get a few friends in for a beer and to help you lift the coop onto some breeze blocks? That'll give the birds a cool shady area underneath for dustbathing.
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Hi
And welcome to the forum from mid Wales :) Always great starting a new venture and I truly wish you all the best with it, you must be really excited! Can I just ask though, isn't the use of creosote illegal? Ik that they stopped using it for fenceposts and such quite a while back, although not sure. Any I wish you all the best for the future, if you need any advice then please say anything we are here to help best we can :)
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Hi
And welcome to the forum from mid Wales :) Always great starting a new venture and I truly wish you all the best with it, you must be really excited! Can I just ask though, isn't the use of creosote illegal? Ik that they stopped using it for fenceposts and such quite a while back, although not sure. Any I wish you all the best for the future, if you need any advice then please say anything we are here to help best we can :)
Thanks for the welcome.
My understanding is that sales of creosote to the general public was banned in 2003(?) but that it is still available for professional fencers and agricultural users (who I assume are presumed to know the hazards and to be responsible enough to take precautions) and the online dealer I called to check was happy for me to self-certify when ordering and didn't even want a holding number.
As it happened, before ordering, I had a rummage in one of the unexplored corners of a barn where there were some old oil cans and found a nearly full 25 litre container of old style creosote which saved me a few £ and the trouble of ordering.
Busy now rebuilding the coop and don't worry, there will be lots of stupid questions to follow!
:)
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Yes, you (should) need a CPH for creosote.
And btw, we love questions about chickens, we can 'talk chicken' for ages :excited:
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What's the wire fence the coop will be sited against? Is it the kind of mesh on rolls that was popular a few decades ago beween gardens?
Can you get a few friends in for a beer and to help you lift the coop onto some breeze blocks? That'll give the birds a cool shady area underneath for dustbathing.
The fence is 6" sheep mesh but having spent two days building a new roof and cutting out and replacing rotten bits of the frame I've got my teeth into this as a project (sadly messing about with 3"x2" and creosote is my idea of fun) and the chickens are now incidental!
I like the idea of raising the coop up - I have an old telegraph pole lying around which looked to be in decent shape so I will make some legs/supports to get it up out of the mud and get rid of the perfect space for rats underneath and create enough clear space for a mesh "skirt".
Thank you all so much for the tips and advice! :)
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Hi all,
Following the very helpful advice I got from forum members, I've cracked on with rebuilding the rotten duck house and having replaced all the rotten wood and roof adding four nesting boxes, a run and putting it up on posts. Most of the creosote was done a month or more ago so we should be ready for some fowls next week.
I've tried posting a picture but am not sure whether it will work.
I'm sure I will have plenty more questions (stupid or otherwise) as we start our new lives as poultry owners but a couple to be going on with;
1. The run is 6' x 5' (it has heavy gauge 2" mesh covering the base with 5-6" of sand, soil and woodchipping on top) and I would welcome thoughts on a cover to keep the rain out. The roof of the shed is black coraline corrugated bitumen and I wonder whether more of the same for the run or whether clear corrugated PVC would be better. Both will keep the rain out but I guess that the PVC may need shade adding. Hopefully the hens will be free ranging most of the time but may be confined when we are out/away.
2. Feeding/feeders; I was planning to keep their feeder in the run to discourage pigeons, crows etc. so (with a roof over the run), keeping the feed dry should not be an issue. I've been looking at the treadle type feeders to minimise waste and attraction to vermin and to let us go away for a day or two confident that our girls will be getting fed.
There seems to be a lot of love for the Grandpas Feeders and all the cheaper galvanised alternatives seem to get mixed reviews on the usual sites. Are they really worth the extra cost?
Any thoughts gratefully appreciated.
Many thanks.
PS Picture does seem to have attached - there will be some extra bolts and security on the doors before we get our girls!
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Twinwall polycarbonate would make a reasonably effective roof for the run. I use galv. feeders and take them inside at night.
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Looks good! :thumbsup:
I've seen images of diy treadle feeders on google images that didn't look too bad. Try feeding in the run and see how you get on. I used to leave my birds feeder in the house always full and just fed them a bit here and there outside. Never had any bother with vermin taking it.
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All of the above recommendations and then visit your local cat protection and rehome some feral cats,we did and i`ve not seen a mouse or rat in 3 years except the dead ones the 3 cats bring to the front door.
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But what about Toxoplasmosis if you keep sheep, plus the effect on other wildlife? We came here with two fairly elderly cats and didn't replace them when they died. 14 years on and the area immediately around the farmhouse hums with everything from Firecrests to Great Crested Newts to Shrews.
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But what about Toxoplasmosis if you keep sheep, plus the effect on other wildlife? We came here with two fairly elderly cats and didn't replace them when they died. 14 years on and the area immediately around the farmhouse hums with everything from Firecrests to Great Crested Newts to Shrews.
Im guessing this is for me ?
The cats are caught in traps and taken to the vets quite regular as a normal cat would be,as we live in the middle of about 200 acres or more of forest and the cats spend more time in the woods than in the paddock with the sheep. Not had 1 bird,newt or shrew left outside. Just mice + rats thats not to say they havent caught and eaten them without me seeing but im sure domestic cats kill birds etc too.?
As for my sheep most are in the freezer now with just 2 to go in september.
Im surrounded by sheep farmers with thousands of sheep and they have feral cats all over the place + feral cats are everywhere up and down the Uk so maybe most british lamb could be at risk ?
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Thanks all for replies.
I managed to get some end of line slightly damaged clear, corrugated pvc half price from local diy store so the run is now covered.
Feeder - still work in progress on this.
Cats - we declined the previous owners offer of their barn cat (the name "Houston" suggested that it might be a problem!) and although Mrs K is keen, I'm not convinced that they will be good fun r the local ground nesting bird population but we will have to see how the potential vermin problem pans out.
Looking forward to getting our girls at the weekend. :)