The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: SallyintNorth on May 21, 2017, 09:06:07 pm
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We've a dwindling flock of mixed hybrid egglayers here, who've done us well but are due for replacement soon.
We'd like chickens to eat, too, but don't want to run two completely separate flocks (although we know we'd need to keep the table males in their own run from pre-puberty.)
We're a community of 20+ adults and 9 children, with a small farm we run ourselves, rearing livestock, milking our Jersey and growing veg. We're always all very busy, so don't want to stretch ourselves too thin.
We need 20-25 hen eggs a day, are happy to buy extra eggs in winter when production is lower, and would probably eat a couple of cocks a week, at least, once we hit steady state.
We think our favoured two options are:
- Find a nice cockerel of a good-sized dual purpose breed, let him run with our girls and let nature take its course. Buy eggs to make up the shortfall until the new generation kicks in.
- Clear out the current flock and buy a new flock of POLs of our chosen breed, with an unrelated cockerel.
Comments welcomed, particularly on your experiences with dual purpose breeds / egg-laying breeds whose cockerels are big enough to make a decent meal, and whose hens will make a good job of rearing. On the shortlist at the mo are Rhodies, Silver Dorkings, Light Sussex, Welsummer but we're open to suggestions of other breeds to look at.
It's entirely possible we'd get one breed to start off with, then after a couple of years a new cockerel of a different breed. (One breeding programme I unwittingly participated in bred superb cockerels from Rhodie x LS, then x Silver Dorking. But that was very small scale, and we got all cockerels in the last generation, so I've no idea how the hens would have performed! Lol)
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Do chickens work like sheep (bear with me here!)?
As in, hens of a small, productive breed, and then a big ol' meaty cockerel? Anything you hatch, you eat, so replacement hens would have to be sourced elsewhere.
If purebreeds are better, for replacements etc, have you considered Barnevelders?
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Have been reading about Barnvelders. Thanks for that idea. Docile and pretty as well as medium-large dual purpose - sounds interesting. :thinking:
Anyone any experiences to share with this breed? (Good and bad.). Not too docile / lazy? (Had a couple of Buff Orpingtons. Cuddly and meaty. But so greedy and got so fat!)
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Do chickens work like sheep (bear with me here!)?
As in, hens of a small, productive breed, and then a big ol' meaty cockerel? Anything you hatch, you eat, so replacement hens would have to be sourced elsewhere.
If purebreeds are better, for replacements etc, have you considered Barnevelders?
Are bit different.
Cross breeds might prove to be more productive, I. E. Lay more eggs and grow faster than either of the parents.
Generally it is a good idea to cross your hens with something like dorking, bresse, Indian game or something similar.
Have a look at our other thread - the really long one in which we are mostly talking exactly about that - having a sustainable flock of home produced meat chickens - not the ugly Ross cobb broilers.
I'm hatching poulet de Barbezieux and hopefully la bresse to keep for meat plus eggs, as they are really good egg layers too. I also have muscovy ducks for meat.
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We had an Ixworth boy in with Dorking girls. Neither of them pure breeds as we have the odd funny colour in their offspring.
We now keep their offspring: boys worth eating, girls fine for eggs, and importantly: the stud cockerel is friendly. Something worth considering with the number of kids at your farm.
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I.M.O. pure breeds for eating are a waste of time,they take ages to get big enough to bother + there is never much on them really.I`ve tried pretty much all breeds over the years.Then they stop laying as the nights draw in.
I reared some cobbs but they get too big too quick and have leg problems..8 week old cock weighed 4kg Dressed.
Get some hybrids for eggs (columbian blacktails) lay nearly every day through the winter as well.
and find some slower growing hybrid meat birds.
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Have been reading about Barnvelders. Thanks for that idea. Docile and pretty as well as medium-large dual purpose - sounds interesting. :thinking:
Anyone any experiences to share with this breed? (Good and bad.). Not too docile / lazy? (Had a couple of Buff Orpingtons. Cuddly and meaty. But so greedy and got so fat!)
Nice birds, the cock was respectful and trusted, took a while to get to eating size but I don't know how that compares to other breeds. A few stubborn old girls, very habit-driven so didn't like change!
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Dorkings would get my vote - meaty bird, nice temperament, start laying around three weeks younger than our other soft-feathered large fowl, those that go broody do an excellent job.
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Hi Sally, wow that's quite a project :thumbsup:
The eggs side won't be a problem, but have you priced up the cost of putting 2 cockerels a week on the table of a traditional breed.
I know you don't want to but if you could have 2 breeding flocks it would make things a lot easier.
If you were looking for maximum production at the lowest cost, it would be Hybrid layers being kept a few years, culled and replaced and hybrid meat birds bought in batches, the free range types can be kept and bred from.
If your sticking with traditional breeds I would go for the main flock of Possible Light Sussex as your layers, with a smaller flock of Indian Game to cross with them for meat and the IG hens make excellent broodys.
IG will also help with eggs and extra cockerels are excellent table birds in there own write.
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We're a community of 20+ adults and 9 children, with a small farm we run ourselves, rearing livestock, milking our Jersey and growing veg. We're always all very busy, so don't want to stretch ourselves too thin.
That sounds really interesting Sally. Would love to hear more. Oh nothing to add about chickens! Lol!
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Hi
I had some LS last year from good strain and probably a little disappointed
I also had IG x LS and again probably a little disappointed all the pulleys seem to have better meat to bone but in the smaller side to the cockerels
I have found that all 6 of the hens I kept are now all broody at same time
I have cou cou de Rennes this year so will let you know how I get on
Been laying since Feb and not a broody insight
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We had a similar plan to you, although there is only the two of us. We gave copper black marans a try and got a cockerel that attacked us regularly. We ate him last week and are reconsidering the breed /s. The other breed we are considering is the Australorp which on paper looks good although I've no direct experience.
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If you were looking for maximum production at the lowest cost, it would be Hybrid layers being kept a few years, culled and replaced and hybrid meat birds bought in batches, the free range types can be kept and bred from.
What hybrid meat birds is there, that can be free range and kept and bred from?
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If you were looking for maximum production at the lowest cost, it would be Hybrid layers being kept a few years, culled and replaced and hybrid meat birds bought in batches, the free range types can be kept and bred from.
What hybrid meat birds is there, that can be free range and kept and bred from?
I ordered the red one from piggies hatchery and was very pleased with them last year. I think Dave has the same ones or very similiar, bit from different supplier:
http://piggottspoultry.co.uk/meat.html (http://piggottspoultry.co.uk/meat.html)
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Mine are Sasso's, which are a French producer for the Label Rouge market, which is a standard for free range.
http://www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/1888/label-rouge-pasturebased-poultry-production-in-france/ (http://www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/1888/label-rouge-pasturebased-poultry-production-in-france/)
Last year I kept some Sasso slow growth Pullets and 2 cockerels back for breeding along with some Sasso medium growth Pullets (cockerels of medium growth were to big with bad movement).
Pullets came into lay at 18 weeks and laid all winter, cockerels dressed out at 2kg at 14 weeks old.
Hatched eggs from them and the chicks are 6 weeks now and doing very well.
Have a look at the pics on Breeding for Meat & Eggs thread.
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The eggs side won't be a problem, but have you priced up the cost of putting 2 cockerels a week on the table of a traditional breed.
Yes. Between £4.70 and £9.70 per bird in feed, depending on when we eat them between 16 and 26 weeks. I'm hoping that two birds will feed the whole community for a supper, plus a soup for another day, and some stock.
I know you don't want to but if you could have 2 breeding flocks it would make things a lot easier.
Why?
Sorry, that may sound facetious, but I genuinely think it'll be much easier for us to let the hens do what comes naturally, then separate the cockerels out at around 10-12 weeks. So I'm interested to hear why you think we're making more work for ourselves.
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I don't think you are making more work I just think 2 flocks will give you more options.
Everyone wants the perfect duel purpose breed but to be honest they don't exist, but it doesn't stop us breeding towards it.
If you have just one breed it will be lacking in something, most DP breeds lay large amounts of eggs and might have large cockerels but there mostly frame and not much meat (the last thing you want is 20 + people sitting down to a leghorn type carcass) and there's no guarantees they go broody.
If you run 2 flocks they can complement each other i.e. One lays the majority of the eggs (LS) the smaller group make good crosses (IG) with the first group for the table and are also broody which doesn't effect your eggs as this is taken care of by the first group.
This also makes your flocks sustainable.
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Most commercial hybrids are versions of the original LS x RIR crossbreed, as this permits autosexing. If you breed them "pure" you may find the offspring variable as the breed hasn't been established long enough to be properly fixed, as the old pure breeds are, particularly the Sussex and Dorking. Since most commercial hybrids have been selectively bred for either meat production or egg production you're unlikely to get a utility bird that will also be a satisfactory broody, have a good temperament, be long-lived and have robust health.
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We have Silver Grey Dorkings for eggs and meat. We get 12 eggs/day from 14 hens during the summer and 6 ish a day over the winter.
They aren't fast growing, but produce a wonderfully tasty bird for the table.
Another plus is that they don't sctratch particularly so don't make a mess of the ground.
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That's good to hear, [member=42972]Jukes Mum[/member] . I have a leaning towards Dorkings myself, I must admit.
At what age do you eat your cockerels? And what sort of weight / size are they at that point?
Do you find them to be good mothers? We're thinking we'd probably better net the whole area for safety from predators - if we get another lockdown next year for avian flu, it'll be a good investment anyway.
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Thanks for explaining that so concisely, [member=27063]Marches Farmer[/member]. Makes perfect sense to me.
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I do have a real soft spot for the Dorkings, they are the chicken equivelent of the Ryedale sheep- very easy, rather lazy and taste great :thumbsup:
We usually hatch at Easter and eat in early Autumn. The birds are an OK size. Not as big as a supermarket chicken. If we have any left over the winter, they are a better size by early spring the following year. They taste so good though! Likey really chickeny chicken!
They are exceeding good mums, but ours don't go broody until summer so we tend to do our first hatches in a incubator.
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I've never tried Dorkings but really like the sound of them, one day I will give them a try :thumbsup:
They sound a good choice.
I've also found Cuckoo Marans make good utility birds if the strain isn't concentrating to much on the darkness of the eggs and still keeping an eye on the size of the cockerels.
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Don't working have really tiny eggs though?
The once I saw for hatching were really small
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The pullet eggs are small, but generally they are just a bit smaller than nornal supermarket eggs.
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Yes. Between £4.70 and £9.70 per bird in feed, depending on when we eat them between 16 and 26 weeks. I'm hoping that two birds will feed the whole community for a supper, plus a soup for another day, and some stock.
What? Two chickens for 29 people.... there ain't much meat per person, especially if you are talking traditional breeds...
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What? Two chickens for 29 people.... there ain't much meat per person, especially if you are talking traditional breeds...
I had wondered the same, but assumed that maybe i am just greedy ;D
We usually get 4 meals (adult) from a chicken.
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Well, we normally figure an average of 4-6oz meat per person. Some will have more and some less, of course. It's rare that absolutely everyone eats together (although a roast dinner does usually get a very good attendance :yum:), there are two vegetarians and I'm not sure how many of the children are likely to eat much chicken. (One only really eats pizza at the moment ::), two are kind of veggie but eat sausages ::) - well, you get the picture :D)
Sounds like we'll need more than 2 birds for a roast dinner, but I'd been working on 3-4kgs per bird and mostly having chicken dishes rather than a roast. It is very hard to get info about carcase weights, which is one of the reasons I asked the question! So your sharing of your own actual experiences is exactly what I was wanting - thanks very much and please keep 'em coming!
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If you were looking for maximum production at the lowest cost, it would be Hybrid layers being kept a few years, culled and replaced and hybrid meat birds bought in batches, the free range types can be kept and bred from.
What hybrid meat birds is there, that can be free range and kept and bred from?
I ordered the red one from piggies hatchery and was very pleased with them last year. I think Dave has the same ones or very similiar, bit from different supplier:
http://piggottspoultry.co.uk/meat.html (http://piggottspoultry.co.uk/meat.html)
Thanks, sorry my reply is so late.
What do they charge for delivery?
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They charged me £18. I only ordered 30 I think. They have me 40 though
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Thanks. Sounds reasonable. They sent you 40 even though you ordered 30? That was kind of them!
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Don't working have really tiny eggs though?
The once I saw for hatching were really small
The Dorkings lay a roundish white egg, about the same weight as those of our Sussex and Wyandotte L/F/