The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Primitive Sheep => Topic started by: Birchlea on May 12, 2017, 09:51:55 pm
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We are expecting our first Soay lambs any day now and as newbies have a question regarding banding (elastration). We have read that it can be done after three weeks but another site suggests eight to fourteen weeks. Does anyone have any current advice please?
Also we have seen recommendations to ensure the lambs have sufficient tetanus antibodies for castration. How do we do this? Is there something we need to do or do any of you have any experience of this please?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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Band castration is supposed to be done within 7 days of birth. The problem with Soay lambs is that their bits are so tiny that they will slip back through the ring, even if you can get them through in the first place.
So, you have a dilemma - do you extend the official time to three weeks (definitely not 8-14 weeks) by which time the testicles might be large enough and have dropped enough for banding, or do you go by the book and get a vet to do it later with a burdizzo or surgical removal.
I am firmly of the opinion that it is a major welfare issue to stick to the 7 day rule with Soay. The bands were designed for strapping great commercial breeds, not for tiny, elfin Soay lambs.
I'm not going to state on an open forum our method, back when we kept Soay, and the choice has to be your own.
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I believe it is 7 days to castrate with a band in the UK.
I also believe that the tetanus antibodies is refering to the mums having being given a vaccination whilst pregnant (such as heptavac) 4-6 weeks before lambing.
I say I believe because it's our first year lambing as well. I'm sure someone more experienced will be along soon.
Dans
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We were shown a good technique for banding by an experienced shepherd and manage to band ' most' of our Soay boys by a week old.
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I believe the seven day rule applies as they never evaluated the technique on primitives or beyond seven days ... why would you if it can easily be done in seven for most breeds. As I can legally band here beyond seven days i have tried and tested the optimum time - the earliest day I can band a Ouessant is ten days ( with a bit of a sweat!) For preference we wait until around the 20 day mark the testicles are freely mobile and descend easily into the scrotum. The whole things is a lot more comfortable for the lamb and is tolerated extremely well. Beyond that age testicle size gets rather too large for comfort. Best of luck !
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Tetanus is one of the diseases covered by vaccinations against the clostridial diseases. Most folks give their ewes a Heptavac booster four weeks before lambing is due to begin (assuming the ewes have been on the Heptavac system through their lives). Around here Ovivac P Plus is given to lambs when the effect of the antibodies they received via colostrum has begun to wane. Probably worth consulting your vet to find out the recommendations for your area. Elastration should be carried out within seven days of birth. Not something to be messing about with - incorrectly done it can trap the testicles inside the lamb (a rig) and has the potential to cause great pain. Again, I suggest consulting your vet.
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I asked my vet he told me you can do it up to four months :o :(
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The Protection of Animals (Anaesthetics) Act 1954 states rubber rings may be used for castration only in the first week of life and that once the lamb is three months of age castration must be carried out under anaesthetic by a vet.
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I believe the seven day rule applies as they never evaluated the technique on primitives or beyond seven days ... why would you if it can easily be done in seven for most breeds. As I can legally band here beyond seven days i have tried and tested the optimum time - the earliest day I can band a Ouessant is ten days ( with a bit of a sweat!) For preference we wait until around the 20 day mark the testicles are freely mobile and descend easily into the scrotum. The whole things is a lot more comfortable for the lamb and is tolerated extremely well. Beyond that age testicle size gets rather too large for comfort. Best of luck !
I think kanisha lives in France!
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correct Nimbusllama I was sharing my experiences for the benefit of members of the forum who are having difficulty with their primitives. Of course I am not required to adhere to the 7 day rule here in france.
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Thanks all. As usual a variety of respondents have provided a variety of opinions! I have a day old ram lamb who's testicles are well formed so I guess the seven day rule will apply once he is established in this world and settled down. I will assess any others based upon their individual development.
Thanks again.
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Reading this has made me a little worried!! I castrated our Ouessant boy at 7 days as was following the rules and didn't think about the problem with size. I thought I had the testicles, but am not very experienced with it so possibly haven't assessed it well. How would I know if it hasn't worked?
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Check, if you have left them behind they will still be growing, not to put to fine a point on it Wannabe few of the Ouessants in the UK are selected on a size basis. Here in France I breed a purebred flock to the breed standard which means I only use rams who are under the breed height max at maturity. This does lead to small ram lambs.
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Ok thanks for your advice as always [member=81]kanisha[/member] Whatever I've captured with the band is going hard and I think getting smaller. Certainly not growing anyway. Can't see anything growing on the other side, so hopefully means it was a success? His horns are growing though - do wethers still grow horns?
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Yes, most wethers have horns.
The occasional male is scurred but the majority of male Soay have horns.
The horns on castrated boys are smaller than the horns on an entire animal.
Our wethers have horns that are just a bit bigger than the horns of the ewes.
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If in doubt check again in a few weeks time but it sounds good. Going by mine once they have been done some continue to grow horns but they are much reduced in size and thickness others don't appear to continue to grow at all. I have no explanation for the difference but those that do very often end up losing them as they are fragile and break more easily.
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They've fallen off [member=81]kanisha[/member] so think all is well! ;D
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They've fallen off [member=81]kanisha[/member] so think all is well! ;D
Sorry, but if the testicle slips back through the ring, you won't see anything external and the little sac will still dry and fall off. When he's older - like three or four months old - tip him up and run your hand firmly across his lower belly, below the navel and across between the hind legs. By then, if one or more of the testes slipped back, you'll feel them inside the belly.
Another year, when you ring, after you've taken the device off, count the number of testes you have snared in the sac. If it's not two, cut the ring off and try again a few days later.
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Oh bother! [member=10673]SallyintNorth[/member] ! I *thought* I had captured both testicles when I did it, but it's the first time I'd done it unsupervised, so don't really trust my judgement. He is quite head butty (have just posted a separate post about this in the main sheep section) - could that be a sign?
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It's really not ambiguous when you've just ringed - you'll know to check another time.
The butting may be a sign, but could be coincidental.
Apart from horn growth and behaviour, a rig is only really a problem in extremely cold weather - the body heat will kill any sperm in there unless it's sub -10C. (Many of us had unexpected fatherings after a snap of -20C a few years back :o).
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I've found this useful thread in my search for the same information. I'm used to big sheep suffolks/texels and big goats Anglo-Nubians. Applying elastration rings was never a problem (I've done loads) - never any issue with whether the testicles were in the sack. It's not the same with my Soays - I've got two ram lambs and I can feel the testicles still up high above the scrotal sack several days after birth. In my opinion there is no point in applying an elastration ring until I am certain that the testicles are in the sack. Where I stand if this hasn't happened in 7 days I don't know - it will cost an arm and a leg to surgically castrate them. I've also seen the website that states 8-14 weeks (which is quite an excessive time IMO), but that is not a UK website. I am quite sure that elastration rings weren't initially tested on native breeds like Soays, but that view-point still doesn't defeat the UK law vs. animal welfare. What a conundrum - any thoughts would be welcome.
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A lot of us with tiny and primitive breeds do have to stretch a point with the 7 days with some lambs. I find most of mine are do-able by day 7 but the occasional one needs a few days longer - but I don't have Soay and they are even smaller!
When I was on the Cumbrian upland farm, the farmer there was very experienced with burdizzos, so I used to ring the ones I could by 7 days or thereabouts and anyone not ready would get burdizzoed by the end of the first month. We found it very effective, although you really do have to have someone with heaps of experience to be sure it's done right - the testes shrink to nothing very very slowly, so if the job wasn't done properly you would have viable tups of which you weren't aware.
One year we had 4 we hadn't burdizzoed within the first month so I waited until the vet was coming for something else and got the vet to castrate them. That vet made it clear he would prefer to do the job before the end of the first month, and in fact I felt the burdizzo was a better option for the lambs too, so we made sure we burdizzoed all the unringed ones after that.
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I don't think the castration police will come and check on you if you ring Soay later than your 7 days window. Soay testes are tiny and pop back up quickly. I see it as a welfare issue to ring too early, as the ring being the size it is, there is a likelihood that even if you get it on, the testes will slip back through it, or part way through it, which would be exceedingly painful. Back when we kept Soay, we did on occasion not ring until 3 weeks, with no noticeable pain to the lamb.
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Thank you both for your replies, it sounds as though there might be a fair amount of welfare sense in checking regularly until we are sure that things are where they should be and ringing as soon as we feel confident that things are where they should be and a suitable size. I don't think I would feel confident with a set of burdizzos.
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Asked our vet a similar question recently as our Hebridean tup lambs' testes were too high/small to ring at 7 days. Although that is the legal limit for elastration without anesthetic the vet can do them later - with a local - or with a burdizzo or surgically. Estimated cost around £10 for them to do a later elastration. So could add up and will affect the finances for some, but is cheaper than having a whole load more fencing done to keep them in separate fields from 4 months.
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Well, I've tried to be strictly legal this year, and have now had to remove the band from two lambs when one testicle slid back as I removed the elastrator. Bear in mind I have successfully castrated literally hundreds (possibly over a thousand) lambs over the last 12 years, and have previously only had to cut a ring off on maybe three occasions.
I will continue to stretch a point on the primitive and primitive cross lambs; no question the higher welfare option is to wait a few more days if they're not quite ready.