The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Dans on May 11, 2017, 10:02:59 pm
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Ok I only seem to be coming here with questions these past few days. Thank you all for your patience with me.
Our second ewe lambed twins yesterday night. It didn't go very well. I ended up having to help her out as the lamb just wasn't coming, I had a vet on the phone who thought it was the right course of action but I still wonder if she would have managed in the end without my help. End result of two living ewe lambs though.
The thing is I'm not sure if she is a 'good' mum or not. With our first ewe to lamb she barely moved away from the lamb at all and if she did and it bleeted she would start calling to it and go back to it. She was really attentive, even when we were offering ewe nuts. We give the ewe and lamb(s) the run of the polytunnel during the day as it gets warm and there is access to a hurdled off outside bit to cool off. This ewe will happily walk away from her lambs, they bleet a bit and she makes a sound to them but doesn't go straight towards them, if they bleet a bit more she will stop what she is eating and go to them, but it takes a lot longer than with the previous ewe. (The previous ewe has started running back and forth along the fence calling to the twin lambs when they start bleeting and mum ignores).
Is this a usual mum behaviour or is she not as bonded with them? I'm keen to get her out on grass to help her with her milk production but I'm not sure about letting out in the field while she is still so blase about her lambs. Would keeping her in help or is this just how it will be? One of them is a fair bit smaller than the other (2.5 and 2kg) and seems to be developing a bit slower (bigger one was running about whilst the smaller was still shakey on her feet) but they both seem to be moving well now.
Dans
Edited to add that we have a pair of breeding crows living by the field that have been very interested at both lambings and are very active in littering our land with dead things and rubbish. I'm a little worried about them with lambs that aren't being mothered as attentively.
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I would pen her up for a couple of days so she really bonds with them. Are these her first lambs? It can take first time mothers a bit more time than normal to bond. Either pen her up outside or inside but in a small area 6x6 is ideal. After a couple of days she should be bonded. If she's a really bad mother and doesn't look after her lambs properly I would cull her.
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Is she short of milk for them? If not, from the way it sounds, I think I'd pen them in a small (4 hurdle) pen for a day or two. It does sound as though she's not as bonded with them as would be ideal.
Quite possibly the intervention at birthing interfered with the bonding a little, so she maybe is just going to need a little longer to bond properly with them.
Or she could just be one of those mums. I have a black Wensleydale is a very laid back mum. Her lamb can often be found at the far end of the field. If Quincy wants him she bellows for him, but she doesn't really go looking for him. She was just the same last year, but did raise and is raising a perfectly good lamb. In her case, the other ewes would chase any marauding corvids away, so Quincy's lackadaisical mothering style is unlikely to result in any misfortune. :fc:
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Ok I think we'll do a compromise as I am worried that she is a bit short of milk as well. We have some ungrazed grass that is in the shade of the polytunnel. I'll pen them up there tomorrow so that she can get some good grass in her and boost production but the lambs can't wander far. The only thing is we are forecast a bit of rain tomorrow. They are her first lambs.
Watching the lambing camera footage today it does seem like one of the lambs is much more adventurous than the other. One stuck by her but the other kept wandering off. She would go for hay, realise she only had one lamb and go after the missing one, then go back to hay and repeat. We penned them up for the night and one just sat by where the hurdles had opened and bleeted to go back out.
Dans
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Hi Dans- in this case I would prob. keep her penned up for up to 4 days so the bond grows with the lambs and particularly to get the smaller one (ewe lamb?) a bit stronger (and also to reduce the likelihood of her trying to swap her lambs- which she may do if another of yours lambs soon). 2 or 3 days may do it- but only you will know that by your observations. Although what you are prob. seeing is a normal difference in lambing care of the two ewes- so prob. nothing to worry about. Give her add lib nuts, hay, water and minerals. They don't necessarily need grass. Sometimes the 2nd lamb does get stuck and dies (happened to one of mine this year where intervention should have been in 1st 30mins of 1st lamb) so it sounds like your intervention was spot on.
Don't worry about asking q's- and getting advice from vet on the phone is a good idea.
Special treatment for twins? I think very useful to pen these up with mum for a day or two longer than singles so both can run well. 1st night particularly can be a bit dodgy as more advanced lamb could drag mum away from 2nd leaving it vulnerable to foxes/badgers (happened to mine once)). Crows? possibly but not likely to be a problem to lambs (but will be looking for scraps of afterbirth). Can you post a photo for ID'ing? (You said they might ravens but in your location that is not likely?). If they are ravens then that would be a difft. matter and you would have to be more vigilant!
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Well she has chomped through about 1kg of nuts already this morning. Is it ok to keep offering at that rate, she was probably on a quarter of that prelambing.
Checked on the lambs and the smaller one (both ewes) is doing fine, full belly, big stretch etc. The larger one didn't stretch but wasn't hunched and did go over to mum for milk. After trying though she did look a little sunken. Will check again in an hour and if still a bit sunken I'll offer a bottle. I do now think that mum has milk but not much. The lambs seems to swap between teats so whoever gets to mum first may be drinking her dry.
Anything else I can do to boost milk production? This seems to be similiar to what we saw with our first lamb until mum went out onto grass, maybe more pronounced because there are two lambs. I offered some PSB leaves which she was interested in. We've got drizzle this afternoon but temperatures of 17/18C, would the lambs be ok in this. I could half cover a 4 hurdle pen and put them out on grass in that. We have two weeks now until the other two are due to lamb (both on the same day :-\) so may increase their nut ration to boost milk a bit.
It was the first of the lambs (I assume the bigger) that was stuck, or appeared to me. The water bag appeared but then seemed to not break for about 45mins. Water was pouring from her but this sack remained protruding out. She seemed to get more and more agitated and whilst the first ewe to lamb picked a spot and stuck to it this one was moving all around the field. Then we got a foot and I thought brilliant but the foot remained for an hour going back in and coming out. The vet thought the lamb might not be presented right. We tried to pen her but she ended up running to the others and we got her in (was at dusk) had a feel and could feel mouth first then behind that the other foot. Didn't have to put my hand in at all, just to the second knuckle. Gave her a little while after that but still no movement despite her really pushing so vet said to pull. Lamb was very hard to pull (at least in my opinion but it's the first I've done) and it took me a while. I was worried it was dead but I heard it make a noise as I was pulling. Got the lamb out and her focus on it, looked up and saw the second lamb was already half out, 1 leg and the head up to the neck. No sign of second leg. Had a feel and the leg was bent under so brought it round and that lamb just dropped out.
They may well be crows but they just seem so huge. That may just be the townie in me but I'm also used to seeing crows in big groups, whereas this pair are the only ones around. They leave over winter, no sign of them at all, but come back each spring, I start noticing dead things in the sheep water, look up and sure enough they are there. This is a zoomed in mobile phone picture so not great but the best one I have of one of them. Crossing my fingers they are crows.
Dans
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No don't give her any more nuts- you risk acidosis if you feed more than 0.5kg per feed. When my ewes were in they had 400g 3 times a day first feed 7am last feed 10pm. Grass does help milk production but they need to be bonded before going out for grass. If it's raining keep lambs and ewe in for the day. Ewes should have enough milk for newborn lambs without grass really as the lambs don't really drink a huge amount in the first few days of life, if she can't feed both and you think she's struggling take one off and hand rear it. Peak milk production is when lambs are 3-4 weeks of age.
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Keep them penned up for 2-3 days, then let them into a bigger enclosure to assess how she is with the lambs. They need time to bond. It takes some sheep a while to realise they have twins and they'll happily wonder off with one lamb and forget about the other.
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Have you tipped your ewe and checked her bag?
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Just to say don't worry about asking all your questions Dan's, if I can't answer, (and even if I can) I learn from other people's answers :).
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With your description of the birth it sounds as if the ewe had been on long enough and needed help. Sometimes they get stuck on the shoulders so a pull to one leg to fully extend then the other one makes the shoulders narrower, then pull both legs downwards if the ewe is standing. So don't worry that you have affected the bonding, that's better than a dead lamb or ewe!
As said, don't overdo the nuts 500gms at once no more. Pen them up, plenty of fresh water to encourage milk production, good hay or grass, then leave them to bond.... too much human presence may not help :thumbsup:
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A normal carrion crow , Ravens are twice the size . Your doing fine and lambed your first sheep :thumbsup: all the advice is good . IT gets easier :sheep:
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Our Soay vary in how they care for their lambs.
One of our ewes seems to barely notice whether or not her lambs are even with her!
Her lambs are often left under the hedge and she's off grazing or bleating for her with no response.
As they get a little older, her lambs usually end up following another of our ewes around. Same ewe each year!
She must do enough though because her lambs thrive and grow at the same rate as la!bs from the more attentive ewes.
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Is it possible that the less attentive ewe's time is better spent eating, to produce milk? Time spent searching for lambs is time not spent eating.
Just something that could be a factor.
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Thank you all.
I think it was the shoulders. Vet said to pull one leg and then the other. Once that second foot was out and the leg straight it was a bit easier but still took some force. Probably didn't help that I was having to hold her still while she was standing.
I offered a bottle before I went back to bed (sick toddler as well so sleeping when she lies in!). It wasn't very successful. Are you meant to make a hole in the teat? I couldn't get anything out. It's a Ritchey one.
OH didn't get the message about leaving them in the pen today so gave them the run of the lambing area when he got up. Checked on the camera and they are moving as a family unit with mum trailing after them as the run up and down. I think they are doing better. I think you may be right Yorkshirelass, she is more attentive today with a full belly. We haven't checked her milk as I didn't want to stress her too much and already had to grab her to give her abs and painkiller. Plus when I tried checking the previous ewe I was rubbish despite her having milk. This is our 'wildest' ewe, always a pain to do anything with as she just will not be still.
I'll cut back on the nuts and let them out in the daytime tomorrow when it is dry. Glad to hear they are just crows.
Thank you all again so much. I think it is going to take me a while to learn all the variations of normal.
Dans
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Just to say don't worry about asking all your questions Dan's, if I can't answer, (and even if I can) I learn from other people's answers :).
Thank you [member=22672]penninehillbilly[/member] I feel such a pest posting so many questions. But before we started (and still now when I get a chance to come on) I focus on the problem threads. I figured the more I read about other people's problems the more likely I am to spot an issue. Didn't think of my posts being useful to others.
Dans
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Most teats need a hole cutting in them. The milk should come through easily enough if there is a hole unless it is blocked with a bit of unmixed milk powder or something. Then a good squeeze or washing the teat should sort it.
I know there seems a lot of stress at the time of birth but if you need to check the udder you just have to do it. Sometimes the plug in the end of the teat needs shifting and you can put the lambs on the sheep more easily with the ewe tipped.
Crows can be a damned nuisance. Friends of ours have had a lot of trouble with them bothering new lambs.
A bit of rain wont hurt. You might delay putting out in very heavy or cold wet weather.
Two on one day! I sometimes think it must be easier the more you have because you don't have all day to worry about just one!
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Yes the Ritchie teats need a hole cutting but be careful not to cut too much off. There's a little sticky out bit cut half way down this at first so just a hole of about 1mm. Too big a hole and too much milk comes out at once. If you're feeding an older pet lamb you make the hole bigger.
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Hi Dans- to some extent (particularly with primitives) you need to let nature take over- guiding it a bit where necessary ie your manual lambing- it sounds from what you have said that bottle feeding is not necessary and will just add to the stress on lambs and ewe ...and yourself (I have never had a Castlemilk lamb die after it has had its first drink). They really are tough but can look really fragile (particularly the smaller lamb). Some ewes are more milky than others but she will have enough, even if it doesn't look that way now, and the lambs will thrive. Mammary glands will be stimulated to produce more if the lambs draw from them...so supplementing a lamb may actually encourage the ewe to produce *less* milk and trap you into bottle feeding! When a bit older they may steal from a more milky 'single' ewe if necessary (they can be very sneaky!). Seems a bit OTT of your vet to give antibiotics and painkiller to the ewe that you helped (didn't sound from your description that the ewe had an injurious birth?). I would gently question the use of these with the vet (aren't they supposed to be reducing antibiotic use to reduce resistance?).
Good point about the acidosis (has never never happened to mine on ad lib nuts/hay penned up- but I suppose it could happen).
Nice crows, by the way, they shouldn't be a problem (beautiful birds!).
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Well that'LL be why the lambs weren't interest in the bottle then :surrender:
OK will go for the udder check next time. The way OH set it up this morning theye have access to the polytunnel and to some fresh grass outside so have been alternating between the two. They are looking a lot better this afternoon. I'm not even getting a panicked feeling when I look at them which is saying something!
Not sure if I am glad they are lambing on the same day or dreading it. One of them might be twins as well (scanner was confident on everyone else (and what order they would lamb in) but said she might be carrying twins, lamb(s) looked a bit small.
Dans
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Hi Dans- you will be fine! The whole process is so miraculous it is almost unbelievable isn't it? and it feels like you need to be diving in at every moment. With primitives you'll see that nature has it covered (well almost every time!). Good luck! Post some more photos! I'll post mine a bit later of my 3 week-olds.
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Seems a bit OTT of your vet to give antibiotics and painkiller to the ewe that you helped (didn't sound from your description that the ewe had an injurious birth?). I would gently question the use of these with the vet (aren't they supposed to be reducing antibiotic use to reduce resistance?).
Good point about the acidosis (has never never happened to mine on ad lib nuts/hay penned up- but I suppose it could happen).
Always given antibiotics if we have had to help a ewe any more than giving a gentle pull, on advice from vet. Anti inflammatories are a must too and under estimated in terms of the positive effect they can have, so always give them alongside antibiotics. blanket use of antibiotics I.e jabbing all newborn lambs to prevent infection is discouraged but I wouldn't think twice to giving antibiotics to a ewe if she's had trouble lambing and you've had your hand inside.
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Seems a bit OTT of your vet to give antibiotics and painkiller to the ewe that you helped (didn't sound from your description that the ewe had an injurious birth?). I would gently question the use of these with the vet (aren't they supposed to be reducing antibiotic use to reduce resistance?).
Good point about the acidosis (has never never happened to mine on ad lib nuts/hay penned up- but I suppose it could happen).
Always given antibiotics if we have had to help a ewe any more than giving a gentle pull, on advice from vet. Anti inflammatories are a must too and under estimated in terms of the positive effect they can have, so always give them alongside antibiotics. blanket use of antibiotics I.e jabbing all newborn lambs to prevent infection is discouraged but I wouldn't think twice to giving antibiotics to a ewe if she's had trouble lambing and you've had your hand inside.
My vet left a bottle of antibiotic to be used if the ewe showed signs of needing it after an assisted lambing he did. If the ewe did not show signs of infection I did not have to use it. Non was used.
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I think there's a difference between an assisted lambing where you have had to be very intrusive, eg to sort out a tangle of two lambs, and assisting by pulling legs which are already past the pelvic bone. The first I would give ab's and metacam, the second I would give neither.
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Will keep that in mind about the Abs. I spoke to the vet and they said it would be best practice to give so we did. We saw her start to pass the afterbirth and checked on her each hour but one check it was still hanging and the next no sign. I assume she ate it but not sure if she passed it all, she's had some stringy, bloody discharge occassionally.
I had a go at getting milk from mum and checked her feet as she had really bad shelly hoof whilst pregnant. I got a little bit of milk from each side, just dribbles but that may be my technique. Her udders are very large though, no lumps or hotness, just normal body warmth. The lambs look more sunken than our single lamb did but they were bounding up and down the polytunnel most of the day so they have some energy. I ummed and ahhed about giving a bottle to top them up but have figured it might be best to leave them be.
Some pictures as requested [member=10275]Fieldfare[/member] I'm starting to think we should have a thread every year dedicated to pictures of cute lambs...
Dans
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Hi Dans- they look good and healthy!!!! Udder looks good and full. Just for the record have never given abs to mine even when assisted (you should never need to cut the ewe even with the biggest of lambs). Just a couple of points I would only check feet at turnout from the pen- turning a ewe straight after lambing doesn't sound great for her and adds to the stress of her day. Stripping milk? never found this necessary- the lambs have always got the teats working and again I think it is just an extra stress for the ewe. As I said in a previous email if you really did have a slow/weak lamb you would be better off holding it onto a teat to get it sucking (I have had to do this only once and did it several times over a few hours) rather than bottle feeding. It worked and lamb could be left with mum. Defo. a good move not to top them up by bottle- again mum knows best!
Shelly hoof- some of mine have had that for years with no issue. I guess it is genetic in some Castlemilks- just cut the best you can (not too much up the side) and then leave it and don't worry about it except on your (yearly?) foot check. It has never caused mine a problem and I have never seen footrot or lamenss at all. It could be a trait to cull for though I suppose.
Photo is of some of mine today at about 3.5 weeks old...they are growing very nicely so far!
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I'll keep that all in mind.
We had one go a little lame in the autumn but it resolved itself. About 4 weeks ago we had a ewe go completely off one foot, running around on 3 legs and kneeling to eat. Turned out to be a bad shelly hoof where one piece has become lodged between her toes. Guess what, it was this ewe.
We've had to do minimal intervention with the flock, had a go at dagging but there wasn't anything there really. The only issue other than the lameness mentioned above was a head abcess, which was again this ewe. She is also our worst to actually do anything as no matter how I hold her she will wriggle and even try going up on her back legs. She was top of my cull list then scanned as twins. Then I said anything short of twin ewe lambs and she goes as she is our most trouble, but she's given us twin ewe lambs!
Awwww those lambs look good. I am looking forward to seeing these two out with the other one, I think he is getting a little lonely.
Dans
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Oh God! I think I know her mum...totally wild...but nice...but if she lambed 2 ewes OK I don't think you have a choice! I guess just keep an eye on the shelly hoof...
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Do I need to worry that these two will be crazy too? lol Her mum was Bedstraw. The feet were looking much better when I checked today so she should hopefully be fine until I check again next year. I may give her 3 more strikes, if she uses them up then she goes!
Dans
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Nice crows, by the way, they shouldn't be a problem (beautiful birds!).
Tell that to the cast ewe of mine that had her eyes pecked out by one, or the eight Mallard ducklings I saw one swoop down on and kill.
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I had a ewe this year that lambed twins unaided, but she lambed the second one so quickly, (when she stood up to lick her first one the second just fell right out!) that she didnt realise she had it. We stood and watched as the poor second lamb squirmed inside the bag, and just as we were about to go and get it out she turned around and saw it. I left them alone for about 5 hours and then discovered that she had no bond at all with the second lamb! She would kick it away time and time again, but when quiet she would smell it and then run off to her first born!
We out her in a 4 hurdle pen with lots of hay water and nuts and we also milked the ewe and bottle fed the lamb. The next morning we did the same. After 3 days we let them out for a few hours and then saw she had abandoned him again. So back in the pen she went for another 4 days.
After this we let them out. In the pen she would feed him when the first born was suckling but wouldnt accept him by himself so we were a bit nervous. We left them for a day to settle and the next day we saw that she would let him feed but wouldnt call back to him when he called. Instead he would follow his sister round and when they were lost the first born would call and mum would come right back. So we have left them to it and 3 weeks later all seems to be fine. The bond isnt great between them but the lamb is not hungry.
When i feed all my ewes in the morning, the little ram lamb who hasnt got the great bond has been spotted pinching milk off other ewes whilst theyre stood quietly!
I would say just to keep a close eye on ewe and lambs and see how they are doing. I think like all living beings, they are all different and adapt to things differently!
Good luck
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Well we bit the bullet and let them out on Saturday morning. It didn't go very smoothly, we tried leading her out with nuts (had worked for the first ewe) but she was more interested in the grass. Managed to get one of her lambs but instead of following it she stayed grazing as the other one was by her. Popped that lamb down in the area we wanted her and went to get the second lamb. The first mum came running over to the twin lamb and nuzzled it. It started feeding, she sniffed it's bum and went crazy butting it. We managed to get that lamb away from first mum and get the twin mum and second twin into the area. But I think by that point twin mum and figured she was down to 1 lamb and just ignored the bleeting of the other twin, which ran after the first mum who was not happy with it's advances. Got the twins together and with mum and kept an eye on them. The first mum ran over to the twins to still butt the one that had fed from her but twin mum stood her ground and chased off first mum. Things have seemed fine and settled since them. We set up a second shelter area and was planning to leave them out Sat night with regular checks as it was warm but ended up rushing our toddler to A&E with breathing difficulties and staying in. So the sheep were left to themselves and when my husband came home early hours of Sunday they were all ok. We've left them out since and everyone is ok, the lambs have now even started playing together and seem to know who is mum and who to stay away from.
All ended well in the end!
Dans
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Hope your little one is ok :fc:
Glad your sheep are settling. When you move them out someone pick up the lambs and someone else deal with the ewe. Take the lambs in front of the ewe where she can see them.
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Hope your little one is ok :fc:
Glad your sheep are settling. When you move them out someone pick up the lambs and someone else deal with the ewe. Take the lambs in front of the ewe where she can see them.
all of this :thumbsup:
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What they said :)
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Glad your sheep are settling. When you move them out someone pick up the lambs and someone else deal with the ewe. Take the lambs in front of the ewe where she can see them.
Yep we shall be doing this from now on.
Little one is much better thank you. It ended up being a 24hr stay, couple days home, check up at gp and sent back to a&e but now not needing the inhaler so much. Today has been TV and cuddles which isn't so bad given the rain out there today.
Dans
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Glad your little one is on the mend xx