The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Cattle => Topic started by: Nithside on April 19, 2017, 09:30:51 pm
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Hi all,
I own a 12 acre smallholding in Dumfries an was looking for advice on the best cattle for the smallholding that i really can only put animals out on at the begining of April?
As the ground can sit wet for a long time and can be standing in water from end of October( if a lot of rain falls during that month). I would need to house the cattle from mid October through to early April.
I am well trained in cattle keeping as the family has been in farming for generations, but this kind of conundrum has got me scratching my head. I would ideally like to go back into Galloways but weight and price are stopping me:( :(
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You say in the sheep section that you want 40 ewes , so that doesn't leave a lot of grass for cattle , if Galloway's are to big then ? shetlands / dexters /kerrys or a couple of jersey cows and buy extra calfs to multiple suckle or a couple of calves to fatten and kill
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Depending on where in Dumfries and what type of ground, 40 ewes might be plenty for 12 acres, without any cattle... (I'm ex a north Cumbria upland farm, where we ran 240 ewes, 35 cows and 4 ponies on 440 acres. But good Dumfries ground is way better than our rough grazing and upland hay meadow.)
Jerseys like to be in for the winter (even in North Cornwall, we've learned ::)), while Dexters, Galloways and Highlands are generally less keen ;). So shep53's suggestion of a couple of Jerseys and rear set-on calves might suit. We used to buy Hereford x calves from a dairy herd to do this, usually buying at £120-£200 depending on age, and selling at £800-£900 at 13-15 months-ish. With a cooperative cow, you could rear her own plus three or even four set-ons per lactation. (Or more, I'm told, but I think 5 in one lactation was the most I did. I didn't push the girls hard, and liked to get calves to 5 months or thereabouts before weaning.)
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I'm in the Auldgirth area north of Dumfries but we are prone to the odd flood if the weather is too wet over winter so the cows would be in over winter no matter what breed they are. My goal of 40 ewes is with out cows but I do have a deal with the neighbour where they get a new loose box over winter for their heifers in return for the further 10 acres of riverbank grazing for summer so running 40 ewes all year would be possible with cows, as I also have 6.5 acres I get free of charge for taking the bales for my own use, as the owner doesn't want any stock on the ground at all.
I have been looking at the Dexters and Jerseys as i want quiet cattle for the sake of 5 young children. We have had a Shetland cow in th epast which my dad had bought as the house cow but while she was in with the ewes she would charge at them and the kids love to help with the sheep and one day she went for me and the kids so I ended up getting rid of her on health and safety grounds more for the kids than my own safety.
Sam
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Got Dexters and Shetlands here .... Shetlands are definitely more docile.
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I have been looking at the Dexters and Jerseys as i want quiet cattle for the sake of 5 young children. We have had a Shetland cow in th epast which my dad had bought as the house cow but while she was in with the ewes she would charge at them and the kids love to help with the sheep and one day she went for me and the kids so I ended up getting rid of her on health and safety grounds more for the kids than my own safety.
I suspect that your shetland cow was lonely without other bovine company.
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It might just of been the one off that we got one that wasn't docile but we had a blood line in the Galloway herd that we had that the whole blood line was hostile but that was culled out on my command even though at the time I was just a farm worker on the family farm. I am looking for very docile cattle that my kids can be around and help with when I am around they know that they dont do anything with the sheep when I'm not around but they do love to help and have asked when are we getting cows for the past 3 years so I thought it might be time to "bite the bullet" as they say ;D
I forgot to put that she wasn't on her own and had company with her, she had another heifer but it was so badly bulied by the older one she wouldnt come near to get fed even out in the field or in the winter when I shut her in a pen next to the older one. Should of kept a hold of the young heifer and bought another heifer in that was the same age but the funny thing was they were both from the same herd so can't understand the reaction of the older cow.
Sam
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Jerseys not Dexters then. Got Dexters here, and they're pretty tame (and very gently / lovingly treated) but they're suckler / beef cows and the Jerseys are dairy cows, and that makes an enormous difference.
If you do get Dexters, get ones from a herd that's milked, and ask to spend time with them milking their herd so you can see their behaviour at first hand.
I'd still go for Jerseys. ;).
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Does any one have experience with Jerseys as I havent heard alot about their nature, but I am interested in looking at the Jersey for the milk side of things but would also like to produce meat as well so im inclined to swing to the Dexter for being a dual purpose breed.
My heart keeps telling me to go back to what I know in the way of cattle but my head is saying go for something lighter and smaller. Boy do I hate wanting to back into cattle, but I have a foned love of halter training young stock and watching them grow through out the year, it must be the overwhelming sense of accomplishment that it brings and the warm feeling of working with something not near as back braking as sheep.
Sam
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My Hillie is a gentle, biddable creature (though has a mind of her own and excellent communication skills :)) and I can completely trust her with children. Her first daughter Plenty was the sweetest creature you could ever meet. Her second daughter Katy is an oaf, no malice but a clumsy clutz and I would not be comfortable with small children around her in case of accident. (Hillie and Plenty both seem good at proprioception, I'm not sure Katy knows where her arse is half the time.).
None of my Jerseys would ever kick unless under severe duress. And probably not even then, except maybe Katy.
Using a good beef bull, one that's known for producing good calves off dairy cows, you'll get a very decent beef animal from a Jersey. And your Jerseys will stand for AI, which might be less feasible with Dexters unless you have a crush. So you can use a very good bull for under £20, and no risk of bringing disease on, etc. We used to use the local AI guy that did the local dairy herds, so he had bulls that were good for that purpose.
The Jersey has a particularly spacious pelvis, so is able to birth a larger calf than any other breed ;). I always put them to Jersey or Angus first time, to give them an easy first time, and then anything I want after that. Plenty had two spectacular calves to our own Angus bull, one was even good enough to be entered in the Native Breeds class at our local mart. And we had four very nice offspring using North Devon (Red Ruby), which I think is my favourite. Yes the backside isn't as full as it would be from a full-on beef animal, but the Jersey has a bigger frame than a Dexter, so I would think the meat returned from a Jersey x beef is greater than from a full grown Dexter. (I'm sure it is, from the size and shape of the animals, but don't have deadweights for both to compare.). I've also used British Blue, which a lot of people do - they grow well on Jersey milk. And I've heard of people using Charolais too. Our neighbour, who used to have a prize-winning dairy herd of Jerseys and Guernseys (and of whose favourite cow Hillie is a descendent) used a Murray Grey bull.
And Jersey meat tastes awesome. Knocks Dexter into a cocked hat.
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Some figures for you:
Dexters weigh up to 350kgs on the hoof, according to the Society web page. Jerseys are probably more likely 400-450kgs.
Plenty's daughter Cherry, a Red Devon cross, went off fat (from grass) at 560kgs liveweight.
Plenty's pure Jersey daughter Kitty was 193kgs deadweight at 29 months. (Off grass.) I think I got just short of 120kgs actual meat back.
Dexter Soc webpage puts carcase weight of 24 month steer at 145 – 220 Kgs, and says killing out percentage can be as high as 56%.
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I have to admit I like the look of the Jersey but the other half prefers the Dexter, the thing is we are looking for a dual purpose not either or and I wont go back to shetland after the last experience for kids safety over mine. I like to encourage the kids to help with the farm as it stops them sitting in front of the TV or on their tablets all day not getting exercise and fresh air :thumbsup:
Sam
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I'll be blunt. If children's safety is an issue, source your Dexters with great care. They are not known for their docility.
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The other option I have thought about is the Whitebred Shorthorn, I have worked with them in the past and they are very docile but then I am going back to bigger cattle again. What are the Jerseys like with kids? I know what whitebred shorthorns are like as two of my kids were born before we gave up the family farm and the whitebred shorthorns loved being near the kids and even the oldest cow we had tried to bath one of them.
sam
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An interesting post, I read with interest about your Jersey's SIN and note that you have a friend with Jersey's and Guernseys. We are trying to source a Guernsey girl as a future house cow but am finding it very hard to source as we are up in Cumbria in your old neck of the woods :wave: . We don't mind new born calf up to middle age cow with experience or anything in between, do you still have a contact number for your neighbour? and would you be willing to message me with his details?
Sorry to be really cheeky and highjack the post but needs must :innocent:
Thank you
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You can get good and bad with any breed.
I've had Dexters (among other breeds) for many years, and in fact they were my first cattle as I wanted something small and easily managed. I was lucky and got mine from a small breeder who handled his cattle from birth and they were quiet and pleasant. I could milk any of them by just tying them up in the field, or just put a head collar on and lead them where I wanted. I still have the last daughter of my original cow.
Dexters would have the advantage for you, with wet land, of being the lightest of breeds so would not poach your land up too much. But they can be bastards. (Excuse the French!) I thought all Dexters were like my originals so bought a couple more from a hill farm. I should have guessed when we went to see them that all was not as it seemed, as we couldn't get within 100yds of them. But they looked fit and healthy. There was no way they could be caught that day so we had to leave our trailer for the owners to load them and we picked them up a couple of days later. On returning home I let them out in a small field and they tried to kill me. Well that's the message I got anyway, and I didn't stay in the field to make sure. The worst one went in for meat a few days later, and fetched a good price. I reckoned I could tame the other so started halter training her. (I was 25 years younger then and anything was possible!) I can't remember how I got the halter on, but I tied it to an old trailer and drove gently round the field and she seemed to get the idea, and stopped trying to kill me. I felt sufficiently confident then to enter her in a rare breed show and sale, so took her to York. I went in the ring with her and led her round a bit. Then just as the bidding got to my reserve price and the hammer dropped, she turned on me. So I leapt over the gate PDQ, while at the same time trying to appear unruffled, and I never saw her again!
Those 2 cows were really extreme cases and as unlike the original Dexters I got as chalk and cheese. So what I'm saying is that Dexters, as a small dual purpose breed might suit you, but check up on their temperament first.
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What are the Jerseys like with kids?
My Hillie is a gentle, biddable creature (though has a mind of her own and excellent communication skills :)) and I can completely trust her with children. Her first daughter Plenty was the sweetest creature you could ever meet. Her second daughter Katy is an oaf, no malice but a clumsy clutz and I would not be comfortable with small children around her in case of accident. (Hillie and Plenty both seem good at proprioception, I'm not sure Katy knows where her arse is half the time.).
None of my Jerseys would ever kick unless under severe duress. And probably not even then, except maybe Katy.
Anyone else got any perspectives on Jerseys with children?
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Sorry, [member=2218]LouiseG[/member], the Jersey and Guernsey herd lady is long retired. Her herd was dispersed 25 years ago. It took some detective work to track down Hillie, a descendant of Hilary's favourite cow, when I wanted my own Jersey.
I could point you in the direction of several Jersey breeders, but I can't think of anyone with Guernseys in Cumbria.
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I would say you need to judge the individual animal as you get good and bad in all breeds, as you know from your Jerseys Sally, and I know from my Dexters.
Given that you're not going to allow small kids unaccompanied into a field of cattle anyway, then really you just need to see how your prospective purchase reacts to you and its present owners.
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The kids wouldnt be alone with I would never let them its how they would react to the kids while I am about. I know you get good and bad in every breed and I have experience with cattle like that and got the whole blood line culled out for that sort of behavour as we couldnt get to the quiet cows calves in th esame field as one cow who seemed to know you were there before she even saw you in the field. I have found a coulpe of breeders near to me with Dexter's so going to see when I can go and see them as I want to see how quiet there are first before commiting to anything and if I'm not happy enough then I will go down the store route first before trying to breed. My big problem at the moment is its been 9 years since working with cattle full time so a little rusty and I'm sure once I get back into it it wont take me long. Though we had the Shetlands they were here for a maximum of 6 months when she went for us so didn't really get the chance to get into the swing of cattle again and thought I will wait till the kids are a little older before going into cattle properly again, that was 3 years ago so by the time we do get any breeding stock the kids will be 4/5 years older than they were when we had the Shetlands.
Sam
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We have Shetlands. We milk them. They are lovely cattle. But I know every Shetland cow is like that. If I had one with a dodgy temper, she'd be away. The breed's reputaion is too important.
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If I was going to start from sctatch, then I would start with weaned calves and halter train them to get used to us and keep them going on the halter through to giving birth so that they were quiet when having to work with them for any reason. It would be the same for any breed that i would go for but the breeds I am looking at are all native to the Brittish Isles. I am a great believer in a hands on all the time approach with cattle, as quiet cattle are easier to work with at dosing, blood testing and calving.
Sam
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I would steer clear of Dexters if you want docile and able to milk. We had 2 Dexter steers last year and never managed to tame them enough to handle, in spite of daily bucket feeding.They would also jump out of their field, spooked easily, and broke fences. Originally I wanted a Dexter cow in-calf or with calf at foot, as a house cow, plus a steer to raise for beef, but couldn't find one for sale. Didn't manage to find any Dexters that were being milked within a 50-mile radius - round here they seem to be kept just for beef. I also considered Jerseys, but couldn't find any for sale within a reasonable distance and at a price I could afford.
I now have an in-calf Shetland cow plus steer, and they couldn't be more different - docile, friendly, and welcome human attention. She's not been hand-milked before but I handle her daily and she is happy to be brushed and stroked all over, including her udder, so am hopeful!
It's fine to choose your ideal breed however you also have to consider what is available and the cost - personally I wouldn't want to go more than 50 or 60 miles away to buy cattle, both for my sake and for the sake of the animals travelling.
Also, regarding children - I wouldn't trust ANY of my livestock around unsupervised children, however docile they are. My lovely cow caught my hip with her horn the other day, when she swung her head round to look at something and it's still sore. My fault for standing too close and not being sufficiently observant. None of my animals is aggressive however they are not aware of their own strength and could easily injure a child inadvertently.