The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Old Shep on February 03, 2017, 09:10:42 pm

Title: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Old Shep on February 03, 2017, 09:10:42 pm
Hi everyone, we don't start lambing until 1st April (we are lambing 101 ewes this year) and thoughts are turning to what we would do better this year.  One thing we are looking at is our colostrum management.  With most lambings we would just watch the lambs and ensure that they suckle before leaving them to it.  However its very tempting at 2 am after you've been up since 5 am if the lambs are not getting on with it to give them powdered colostrum so you know they're ok till morning. However they are then a bit more full and maybe won't suckle as keenly amd miss out on proper antibodies. Obviously stripping the ewe out and feeding its own colostrum to the lamb is a better solution.  The second best is colostrum from another ewe.


My question is I know the window of opportunity for gettin good colostrum into the lamb is 6 hours, and I presume that is the premium period for the lab to absorb the antibodies.  How many hours after lambing will the ewe produce colostrum and when does it become just milk?  Just thinking if an old lass just has one lamb and has milk to spare, how quickly do you have to take milk off her for it still to have antibodies? So we can store it for those late night short cuts.
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Sbom on February 03, 2017, 09:18:11 pm
I use cow colostrum instead. I freeze loads in small batches for exactly these times. Was trying to defrost some at 11 last night. Cows produce loads more so much easier to collect and save in big batches
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Old Shep on February 03, 2017, 09:22:54 pm
I remember Mum and Dad doing that - the freezer always had tupperware containers of "new calven "milk!  But we don't have cows now so don't have that option.
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: shep53 on February 03, 2017, 09:55:56 pm
As  rough guide the first 20hrs maybe less in shearlings as they generally produce less colostrum .         Often quoted that as cow colostrum is of  lower quality you need to use maybe a 1/3rd more.
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Old Shep on February 03, 2017, 10:25:29 pm
As  rough guide the first 20hrs maybe less in shearlings as they generally produce less colostrum .         Often quoted that as cow colostrum is of  lower quality you need to use maybe a 1/3rd more.


Thank you :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Backinwellies on February 04, 2017, 07:57:34 am
Cow colostrum is not going to have antibodies to sheep diseases.  Store some from your first few lambing ewes.
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: landroverroy on February 04, 2017, 10:50:33 am
It's not an ideal world and there are pros and cons for everything.

Ideally you cannot burn the candle at both ends. So you can't carry on getting up at 5am and still be bright and thinking straight at 2am. You certainly can't carry on like that for a minimum of 3 weeks. So, unless you have help you maybe need to rethink your system.

I used to lamb 100 sheep on my own with a minimum of difficulties. but you have to accept that you can't be there all the time, so you have to have faith in the sheep. If a ewe's lambed before and raised her lambs ok then there's no reason why she shouldn't do it again without any need to supplement her colostrum.  An old farmer I knew only lambed ewes that had been proved as mothers as he accepted that the times of staying up all night were past.

So - as for colostrum - I would accept that the best is from one of your own ewes (if available) and next best is goat's, or powdered. Cows colostrum is better than nothing. I've used it very successfully so I'm not knocking it - though some do. As for how long a ewe produces effective colostrum - I reckon that as long as it's yellow and looks like colostrum, then it'll do the job. I've milked a ewe the day after she lambed and still found it worked ok.

Whether to give a lamb a colostrum supplement depends on the ewe. If you've reason to doubt a ewe's suckling ability - like she's very flighty or pushing a lamb away, and you are almost asleep on your feet then give the lamb something and get off to bed. You know then it won't die while you're asleep and you can reassess the situation once you've had a break.

A useful tip I read, which seems to work (at least partly) is that if you feed the sheep late on - like just before bedtime - they tend to lamb in the morning. If you feed them early morning, then say in the afternoon, they tend to lamb at night.   

Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Marches Farmer on February 04, 2017, 11:01:49 am
We lamb over three weeks and generally give good quality powdered colostrum within half an hour of birth, unless the lamb has suckled from an experienced ewe in that time.  As landroverroy says, sometimes it just allows you to stumble back to bed confident the lamb will be OK until the next check.  I generally milk off and freeze some colostrum from ewes on their third or fourth lactation that have a single, as quality and quantity will be high.  This is kept in reserve for any lambs that are small or have had a difficult birth.
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Me on February 04, 2017, 11:34:20 am
Ok I've cracked. Giving a protein feed stimulates the gut to shut down. This takes as little as 2hrs from the time the protein hits the stomach. Better to put the lamb in a warm sterile environment with no food at all for a few hrs then give actual colostrum than pump it full of rubbish and go back to bed - unless there are antibodies in your dried colostrum that are able to make it into the lamb it is in immunity, time and monetary terms it is a total waste of time. 
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: waterbuffalofarmer on February 04, 2017, 11:48:19 am
We freeze colostrum from the buffalo all the way to 4th day. If need be instead of colostrum you can give them yogurt with milk and honey to newborns and it helps put good bacteria in the gut, of course it's not the same as colostrum in that it doesn't have as many antibodies, but it can be good for them if you haven't any. I use live sheeps yogurt from woodlands dairy. I would not recommend using powdered colostrum as it's not got the best ingredients in it, fresh is always good. If the lamb isn't suckling, pen up the mum and milk her out and feed it to the lamb, this not only helps it to stay alive but the ewe will accept it as it smells of her :) all the best with lambing, forgive the long post lol. Lambing will begin for us in 2 months now, so not long to go ;D
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Sbom on February 04, 2017, 12:57:56 pm
Ok I've cracked. Giving a protein feed stimulates the gut to shut down. This takes as little as 2hrs from the time the protein hits the stomach. Better to put the lamb in a warm sterile environment with no food at all for a few hrs then give actual colostrum than pump it full of rubbish and go back to bed - unless there are antibodies in your dried colostrum that are able to make it into the lamb it is in immunity, time and monetary terms it is a total waste of time.

Genuine question...... as I don't buy it or use it but.......

Is powdered colostrum not good?  I know it's very expensive, I presumed this is because of all the good stuff it contained?
Surely it wouldn't be made if it was no good? :-\ but then I guess the average person couldn't tell anyway  :thinking: 
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Me on February 04, 2017, 01:36:54 pm
If you can find information proving that there are appropriate antibodies in your chosen product and that those antibodies appear in the lamb after feeding in useful amounts then it is great. If not it is snake oil and can even be harmful when used as a substitute for actually useful ewe colostrum - hence I posted.

First google hit got this one. It says a lot about nutrition... not a lot about antibodies - not to say 100% it doesn't have any.... but interesting there is no claim?

This ultra concentrated colostrum from Nettex for lambs has quick-absorption technology, and is easy to mix. It is a great nutritional supplement that can be added to the feed of newborn lambs.
Quick absorption
Contains antioxidants
 Highly nutritional 
Contains Vitamin E and energy to assist with stress and hypothermia for new borns 
2.5kg
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Marches Farmer on February 04, 2017, 02:22:00 pm
Better to put the lamb in a warm, sterile environment
How do you achieve this in a large lambing shed with several ewes lambing at the same time?
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Penninehillbilly on February 04, 2017, 02:41:12 pm
Better to put the lamb in a warm, sterile environment
How do you achieve this in a large lambing shed with several ewes lambing at the same time?
Or out in the field?
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Me on February 04, 2017, 03:36:39 pm
How do I achieve it? On the commercial side if there are triplets born and I decide to remove one I bring it in the house and put it in a clean, dry warm area until I have defrosted some colostrum or milked some off another ewe and I have time to deal with it, then it may go to the pet lamb pen. I don't see having several ewes lambing at once prevents anybody putting a lamb in a warm, clean place if its mother cannot look after it.
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: pharnorth on February 04, 2017, 05:07:00 pm
Gosh some really diverse approaches on this.  I have used dried colostrum in these circumstances and on the basis that it gave the lamb the energy to get up and feed for itself certainly within the 20 hours when it is suggested the ewe is still producing antibodies in the colostrum. If you freeze some from your ewe how long does it last?
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Me on February 04, 2017, 05:14:49 pm
It lasts fairly indefinitely to the best of my knowledge. The problem that is being ignored is that the open bridges between the inside of the gut and the blood stream are induced to close <2hrs by the presence of protein. So giving fake colostrum can therefore be counterproductive where ewe colostrum could easily have been had. The antibodies from the ewe may still have a local action within the gut after this time but no further

Can I suggest you swap your fake colostrum shot for freezing real stuff?
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Marches Farmer on February 04, 2017, 05:41:46 pm
How do I achieve it? On the commercial side if there are triplets born and I decide to remove one I bring it in the house and put it in a clean, dry warm area until I have defrosted some colostrum or milked some off another ewe and I have time to deal with it, then it may go to the pet lamb pen. I don't see having several ewes lambing at once prevents anybody putting a lamb in a warm, clean place if its mother cannot look after it.
We don't normally have this problem as we've culled out triplet-bearing bloodlines and haven't had to do any bottle rearing for about 8 years.  We find first-timers sometimes take a few hours to settle down and a bottle of colostrum provides the lamb with immunoglobulins and energy as well as acting as a laxative.  The lamb is able to transfer antibodies from its gut to its bloodstream for only a very limited time of around 12 to 15 hours after birth but this timeframe still enables it to have a plentiful amount from Mama. 
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Me on February 04, 2017, 05:59:23 pm
The most recent cpd I saw said 2 hours after first feed no where near 15. So if you give fake stuff there may not be plenty of time to take from Mama, there are 2 hours. Unless your powdered stuff is as good as real or better what you are doing is potentially counterproductive , what brand are you using?



Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Old Shep on February 04, 2017, 09:30:11 pm
Thank you everyone for your replies!!  Hopefully in true TAS style this thread has given lots of info for those following it.  This is now our plan for this lambing


We won't bother buying any powdered colostrum
Any old lasses with spare milk will have some stripped out as soon as possible and frozen just in case we need it.
If we are at the 22am need to go to bed" stage we will just milk the ewe out and bottle feed it to the lambs.


Most of this was a already decided  - I just wondered how soon we would have to milk a donor for it to be still colostrum not just milk.


Landroverroy - thank you for your concern, there are two of us lambing and usually one does the early and one the late shift.  Sometimes though one of us will need the other like last year when I went to help with a tight shearing at 10pm and then we had 10 ewes lamb one after the other with loads of triplets! 


This year we haven't flushed our ewes and have a lower scanning rate (that's good - far too many quads and triplets last year!) so hopefully by 21st April we will be finishing a nice calm stress free lambing !

Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: SallyintNorth on February 05, 2017, 12:55:26 am
I would never give powdered colostrum if the ewe has milk.  It's not hard to milk the ewe for a feed for the lamb - even if you only give it 150ml of her colostrum, it makes a huge difference.  But if #1 lambie has drunk her dry and #2 lambie isn't full, and it's 2am, then I'd give milk saved from another ewe if I had it.  Next best, a good powdered colostrum, one that has probiotics.  I find that much better than cow colostrum for the very first feed.

I agree the comment about it being the best first feed colostrum while it's yellow.  Some ewes produce that for 24 hours or even longer, some only for a couple of litres then it's gone. 

Milk from a ewe that lambed within the last 24 hours is best, but there are probably still good antibodies for another day or two.  If I only had Day 2 ewes' milk, I'd probably do half and half powdered and ewes' for that first feed.

Any lamb that doesn't get ewes' colostrum or reconstituted colostrum the first 6 hours is very high risk for not making it.  It may not die straight away but it is very likely to fail at some point in the first few months.  Yoghurt will probably help it get started, I agree, but I wouldn't expect it to make a fat lamb or a breeder unless it got actual ewes' colostrum or a good reconstituted ewes' colostrum.  Vaccinating at the earliest opportunity (I think it's three weeks for Heptavac for a lamb suckling a ewe, but do check) would probably help its chances.
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Old Shep on February 05, 2017, 02:04:08 am
Thank you SITN.    :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Marches Farmer on February 05, 2017, 09:01:10 am
We use Lamb Volostrum from Wynnstay, which contains whey protein powder and colostrum powder.  The Veterinary Book for Sheep Farmers by David Henderson of the Moredun Institute (known as the Lambing Bible in the MF household) mentions the time for gut absorption of immunoglobulins as being 12 to 15 hours, as mentioned earlier.
 
The brown fat reserves the lamb is born with are exhausted quite rapidly, in around 6 hours, depending on the robustness of the lamb and the conditions it's born into, and if it doesn't get energy it won't be able to make the effort to stand, find a teat and start suckling, particularly if the ewe is a first-timer busy fussing around it or not quite sure what to make of it.

I think the ewe should do the work, not me, which is why we culled out triplet-bearers, but sometimes she needs a bit of help to get going.
 
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Me on February 05, 2017, 01:46:35 pm
We lamb over three weeks and generally give good quality powdered colostrum within half an hour of birth, unless the lamb has suckled from an experienced ewe in that time.

Do I miss-read this then? You give all lambs fake colostrum within half an hour unless they fill up from an experienced ewe before you get to them - and these are only singles or twins! Hardly the ewe doing the work for you.

There are only three reasons for this 1. Your ewes have a terrible milk problem 2. Your lambs have a birth vigour problem 3. You are convinced that 1. or 2. are the case when actually the sheep are fine ... 4. You are the CEO of Powderlostrum Inc ;)

We just finished lambing our heavily culled pedigree flock of Charmoise, (a breed not over endowed with milk) no lambs were pulled, no colostrum top ups and certainly no powder or Spectam given, no cases of WM and no JI. This is only 50 ewes and ewe lambs so not on your scale but I bet your Southdowns can cope without dried colostrum and if they can't at least you will see which animals need culling. Colostrum should not need supplementing routinely.

15 hours may apply if starved (hence my assertion that triplets etc were put somewhere warm and sterile until colostrum could be provided) this time frame does not apply once you have introduced protein to the stomach, be that dried colostrum substitute or sheep poo sucked off dirty wool. The first feed needs to be large and full of antibodies. Your chosen product does have a higher generic "IgG" content claim than some others which is something, but it will not be nearly as good as the real specific stuff you are substituting.   

I doubt I am going to change your position on this!
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Marches Farmer on February 05, 2017, 02:07:04 pm
I am always happy to consider better ways to achieve our aims, which is why we sit down at the dining table and share a plate of particularly scrummy cakes when lambing's over, to discuss what changes we might make to the Flock Plan to improve things for the following year.  Our aims are to achieve zero lamb and ewe losses between scanning and weaning (tick), not have to bottle feed (tick), have all lambs well mothered up within the first 24 hours (tick) and have a good crop of ewe lamb replacements for ourselves or other folk wanting registered pedigree stock, three top quality ram lambs to grow on for ram hire and the rest to go in the freezer or be sold at market (tick again).  Our Flock Plan is based on our flock, our land and our system, which is why, as I always say, it can be a basis for adaptation, not a handbook set in stone.
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Me on February 05, 2017, 02:30:23 pm
I am always happy to consider better ways to achieve our aims, which is why we sit down at the dining table and share a plate of particularly scrummy cakes when lambing's over, to discuss what changes we might make to the Flock Plan to improve things for the following year.  Our aims are to achieve zero lamb and ewe losses between scanning and weaning (tick), not have to bottle feed (tick), have all lambs well mothered up within the first 24 hours (tick) and have a good crop of ewe lamb replacements for ourselves or other folk wanting registered pedigree stock, three top quality ram lambs to grow on for ram hire and the rest to go in the freezer or be sold at market (tick again).  Our Flock Plan is based on our flock, our land and our system, which is why, as I always say, it can be a basis for adaptation, not a handbook set in stone.

Good on you
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Foobar on February 06, 2017, 12:36:37 pm
Geez, all this talk of milking off and freezing stuff makes me tired just reading it. Lol :)

Powdered colostrum for me (the best I can find).  Hardly hardly ever use it though as I never keep any ewes that fail to rear lambs by themselves nor any lambs from ewes who didn't have enough milk.  In my mind rearing lambs is the ewe's job, not mine.  My job is just to ensure the ewes are fed sufficiently that they produce enough good milk themselves :) .

In answer to the OPs question though I thought it was 24 hours, but that time drops the more it is milked out of her.
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Me on February 07, 2017, 10:28:32 am
http://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/dont-use-lamb-colostrum-supplements-as-a-replacement-farmers-warned.htm (http://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/dont-use-lamb-colostrum-supplements-as-a-replacement-farmers-warned.htm)

Interesting read
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: harmony on February 07, 2017, 11:38:41 am
http://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/dont-use-lamb-colostrum-supplements-as-a-replacement-farmers-warned.htm (http://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/dont-use-lamb-colostrum-supplements-as-a-replacement-farmers-warned.htm)

Interesting read
[/quote


Yes very interesting.
Title: Re: Ewe colostrum
Post by: Penninehillbilly on February 07, 2017, 01:01:28 pm
http://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/dont-use-lamb-colostrum-supplements-as-a-replacement-farmers-warned.htm (http://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/dont-use-lamb-colostrum-supplements-as-a-replacement-farmers-warned.htm)

Interesting read
Thanks for putting this
Interesting and very useful